[dktorode]

yes

[Malaese]

You play the game with imperfect information.... so when would you ever know there is only 1 killer left? You can't know if there are two independent guards for situations where there are paired killers. If you get guard you have to trust that the mod made it useful (barfight being the exception recently), so you use guard every night. It's a pretty simple concept really. It should never be that detrimental to your team that you have hold it, and you would never know that during the game anyway.

[dktorode]

man o man

99% of the time a guard role is NOT useful at the beginning of the game AT ALL..
There is always at least two killers...If you are a guard (in fact any inno) should be able to work out how many killers there should be playing. He must then wait for the opportunity to be useful.
So he must only use it close to end game when he is sure that his role will actually do any good.
Guard should not be used early on in the game ....FACT
Same as a vig should not be used early on.

You cant go around guarding people knowing full well that its useless! You stand the chance of blocking other roles. And no chance of blocking a killer.

Very rarely does a game start with only one killer and even then everybody can usually work this out because of the setup and the guard must then OBVIOUSLY use his power from night one.

Im not going to argue this point with you its mafia 101 my friend.

Ofcourse there are situations and setups where the guard is usefull form the get go, but not only is this rare, its also usually pretty obvious in the setup so the guard will know.

[Malaese]

It's not fact and I showed you the numbers. You are just offering anecdotal evidence and a generous number of fallacies based off games run here. You can never know that it's useless, TPB is a good example. Just because there are more than 1 scum doesn't mean they are always paired for guard actions. It doesn't mean that there isn't another guard out there. It doesn't mean you can't guard another scum role other than killer, like silencer or scum guard (depending on how the actions resolve). It could be any different number of set-ups. It's up to the mod to make sure guard is useful. Barfight is a good example where the set-up negated guards usefulness the whole game, but again the point is, you can't ever know that from the begining of the game. You can't worry about blocking other roles, it's all information anyway. It's game mechanics 101.

Just wanted to add that I can't believe you are arguing about not guarding in a game with 3 scum where the killer could have been guarded and the kill stopped from night 1.

This post has been edited by Malaese: 03 June 2009 - 11:17 AM

[Gem Windcaster]

Breadmaster, on Jun 3 2009, 03:44 AM, said:

Peanutbutta, on Jun 1 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

Yep he changed the prov on me to someone else.

Also, LOL at the innos right now. I cannot BELIEVE that they are feeding into his shit. When she gets back, Gem is way too good at this game to let that slip IMO and yes, even if she does miss the numerical shit, I believe she'll keep her guard on him.

Seriously though, Breadmaster is working on a PHD in Physics. How he could miss something as easy as that I have no idea and I'm going to give him shit for it for a lonnnnnnng time. ROFL.

Whatever, I was blinded by how scummy D'rek and Gem were acting. Neither one of them could come up with a good reason why they were voting for Kesso and when I pressed them about it, Gem started acting like a 5-year-old. You have the foresight of knowing they were innocent and are thus able to focus on what the scum is saying. When I have to process all their shit, it's a little harder.

I acted scummy on purpose, because up til then I was squeaky clean, and I didn't want to be nk'd.


About the guarding early in the game - it's simple really, I used the role as a finder role, especially since the second guard killed the person guarded, I had to play that way. Anyway it worked out nicely.

[dktorode]

MY WHOLE POINT IS
IN MOST OF THE GAMES THE KILLERS ARE PAIRED....SO GUARD IS USELESS UNTIL ONE IS DEAD.

IF THE KILLERS ARENT PAIRED MOST OF THE TIME YOU CAN SEE THIS IS THE CASE IN THE GAME SETUP!!

SO GUARDING ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT IS DEH STOOOOPID.

obviously every game is different...you Obviously need to check the setup....but as a general rule guard should hold his powers untill he is pretty sure the killers are alone.

ofcourse you should not worry about blocking roled players...THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
The point is being certain that your guard is not being used while its useless, because it only helps team scum...

fuck it i siad im not going to argue...asdlkansdlaksdm....

gooooooos fraaah baaaah

[dktorode]

Gem Windcaster, on Jun 3 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

Breadmaster, on Jun 3 2009, 03:44 AM, said:

Peanutbutta, on Jun 1 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

Yep he changed the prov on me to someone else.

Also, LOL at the innos right now. I cannot BELIEVE that they are feeding into his shit. When she gets back, Gem is way too good at this game to let that slip IMO and yes, even if she does miss the numerical shit, I believe she'll keep her guard on him.

Seriously though, Breadmaster is working on a PHD in Physics. How he could miss something as easy as that I have no idea and I'm going to give him shit for it for a lonnnnnnng time. ROFL.

Whatever, I was blinded by how scummy D'rek and Gem were acting. Neither one of them could come up with a good reason why they were voting for Kesso and when I pressed them about it, Gem started acting like a 5-year-old. You have the foresight of knowing they were innocent and are thus able to focus on what the scum is saying. When I have to process all their shit, it's a little harder.

I acted scummy on purpose, because up til then I was squeaky clean, and I didn't want to be nk'd.


About the guarding early in the game - it's simple really, I used the role as a finder role, especially since the second guard killed the person guarded, I had to play that way. Anyway it worked out nicely.

ofcourse the guard roles in this game were....weird...

[D'rek]

I spent the entire game from Night-2 onwards inwardly cursing Sixty at every opportunity... and now I found out he was trying to Heal me!!!

[Peanutbutta]

dktorode, on Jun 3 2009, 04:25 AM, said:

MY WHOLE POINT IS
IN MOST OF THE GAMES THE KILLERS ARE PAIRED....SO GUARD IS USELESS UNTIL ONE IS DEAD.

IF THE KILLERS ARENT PAIRED MOST OF THE TIME YOU CAN SEE THIS IS THE CASE IN THE GAME SETUP!!

SO GUARDING ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT IS DEH STOOOOPID.

obviously every game is different...you Obviously need to check the setup....but as a general rule guard should hold his powers untill he is pretty sure the killers are alone.

ofcourse you should not worry about blocking roled players...THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
The point is being certain that your guard is not being used while its useless, because it only helps team scum...

fuck it i siad im not going to argue...asdlkansdlaksdm....

gooooooos fraaah baaaah

This is pretty retarded, TBH. "Paired killers" is a Malaz construct. In actual Mafia games, the scum must designate one person to actually perform the kill so that person could, in fact, be blocked.

You should always always always guard. You don't know how the moderator set it up. Don't just assume you're useless or you have zero information.

[Breadmaster]

dktorode, on Jun 3 2009, 06:20 AM, said:

99% of the time a guard role is NOT useful at the beginning of the game AT ALL.

I especially like this made-up statistic, since, in the last three games played on even this site, guard would have been effective from the very beginning.

[Sir Thursday]

I can see Breadmaster's point of view in this game. The cases people made on Kessobahn were incredibly poor. The evidence was there if he had looked for it himself, but based solely on the evidence presented by Shadow and Ampelas, Kessobahn wouldn't have looked especially guilty to me. And his method would have worked, it would just have been slower. I don't see why people are giving him a hard time about it...


Sir Thursday

[alt146]

PB's just giving him a hard time because he knows him and he missed the four nights thing. And because noone listened to him when he had the scum dead to rights just before he died.

[Peanutbutta]

alt146, on Jun 3 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

PB's just giving him a hard time because he knows him and he missed the four nights thing. And because noone listened to him when he had the scum dead to rights just before he died.

THERE WERE FOUR NIGHTS!

Also, when your CI finder dies, you listen to his dying words!

[dktorode]

Peanutbutta, on Jun 3 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

dktorode, on Jun 3 2009, 04:25 AM, said:

MY WHOLE POINT IS
IN MOST OF THE GAMES THE KILLERS ARE PAIRED....SO GUARD IS USELESS UNTIL ONE IS DEAD.

IF THE KILLERS ARENT PAIRED MOST OF THE TIME YOU CAN SEE THIS IS THE CASE IN THE GAME SETUP!!

SO GUARDING ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT IS DEH STOOOOPID.

obviously every game is different...you Obviously need to check the setup....but as a general rule guard should hold his powers untill he is pretty sure the killers are alone.

ofcourse you should not worry about blocking roled players...THAT IS NOT THE POINT.
The point is being certain that your guard is not being used while its useless, because it only helps team scum...

fuck it i siad im not going to argue...asdlkansdlaksdm....

gooooooos fraaah baaaah

This is pretty retarded, TBH. "Paired killers" is a Malaz construct. In actual Mafia games, the scum must designate one person to actually perform the kill so that person could, in fact, be blocked.

You should always always always guard. You don't know how the moderator set it up. Don't just assume you're useless or you have zero information.

excuse me?...but were the fuck are we playing mafia? on the moon?
No...its malazan mafia kapeesh?

dont mind me im just a highly strung megalomaniac.
Im still right about the guard though

[Sir Thursday]

Peanutbutta, on Jun 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

alt146, on Jun 3 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

PB's just giving him a hard time because he knows him and he missed the four nights thing. And because noone listened to him when he had the scum dead to rights just before he died.

THERE WERE FOUR NIGHTS!

Also, when your CI finder dies, you listen to his dying words!

Just because you were right about Fener, doesn't mean you were right about Kesso and Ruse...


Sir Thursday

[Peanutbutta]

Sir Thursday, on Jun 3 2009, 08:23 AM, said:

Peanutbutta, on Jun 3 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

alt146, on Jun 3 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

PB's just giving him a hard time because he knows him and he missed the four nights thing. And because noone listened to him when he had the scum dead to rights just before he died.

THERE WERE FOUR NIGHTS!

Also, when your CI finder dies, you listen to his dying words!

Just because you were right about Fener, doesn't mean you were right about Kesso and Ruse...

Sir Thursday

Of course I wasn't certain to be right. I just think the stall tactics were evidence enough before the finder reveal. I think the right move would have been for Morg to jump right on top of Fener's case and let Ruse and Mockra take the heat.

DKT said:

excuse me?...but were the fuck are we playing mafia? on the moon?
No...its malazan mafia kapeesh?

dont mind me im just a highly strung megalomaniac.
Im still right about the guard though

lol you're actually wrong. You're wrong in the same way that finders should always assume they are 'legit' finders until they can prove they are insane/paranoid/naive. You're wrong in the same way that healers should try to get heals off on possible targets, even with possible repercussions like the ones that happened in this game (you can kill your target by healing them too much). And you're wrong in the same way that a guard is a useful tool until proven otherwise.

[Peanutbutta]

Let me show you how wrong you are, in fact.

• 45.5 - The Benses -- Guard was vitally useful with only one killer (Big Ben)
  
• 45 - The Princes Bride -- Guard could stop one of the two night kills (3 killers shared 2 kills, guard prevented one)
  
• 44 - Barfight -- Paired gaurds could not be counted upon until one killer and his symp died (which didn't happen), but paired finders were immune to guard. One healer could have been stopped, but he died early anyway.
  
• 43 - Vampires -- Guard was incredibly powerful with so many scum faction NAs... Cam kills, Baali possessions, definitely worth risking blocking innos to block scum
  
• 42.5 - Mexican Stand-off -- No guards, wouldn't have worked in that scene anyway
  
• 42 - Heroes Timelines -- Guard useful with all the various faction powers
  
• 41.5 - Clue -- One killer made the guard incredibly powerful like in The Benses
  
• 41 - Space -- No guards, could have been very useful to block scum powers and worth the risk to block inno powers
  
• 40.75 - ??? -- No guards, would have been useful against one of the scum teams
  
• 40.5 - Prison -- Guard was useful against the scum
  
• 40 - Aliens -- Many guards, each useful for their respective factions

So in all of those games (ignoring Mexican which had diff mechanics), I see one game where guards were not immediately useful or would not have been immediately useful if included, and that is Barfight. So tell me again why guards shouldn't use their powers?

[Gem Windcaster]

peanut, your mafia ninja skills scare me a little.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 03 June 2009 - 09:08 PM

[Bent]

Also - DK is a dickbag...I feel forgotten by the way...I was scum too you know!!!

[Kurt Montandon]

FOUR.

FUCKING.

NIGHTS.