[buddhacat]

 Khellendros, on May 12 2009, 05:47 PM, said:

 Lisheo, on May 12 2009, 11:45 PM, said:

It's been suggested by someone that the consort is the Otataral Dragon, iirc.

I second that suggestion. If dragons are aspected to magic, and Tiam is the mother of them all, then stands to reason she is sort totally magical aspected. And the otataral dragon, as the polar opposite of that, as her Consort, adds a touch of poetic symmetry. Though sex must have been a tad dangerous. Do you think the otataral dragon always had to wear protection?


What?

Otataral Dragon is said to be female. Tiam's consort is presumably male.

[HoosierDaddy]

Really? Hmmmm. Maybe Tiam is the otataral dragon... dun dun dunh!

Hooray for crazy theories!

Fiddling with otataral messes with people.
People who fiddle with Tiam get turned into soletaken eleint.
Otataral is found where large magical conflagrations occur... and Tiam is pretty magical.

[dawnkiller]

 Hetan, on May 12 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

ah! my bad.

Shh. You didn't misread, and I didn't miss the whole "olar" thing. Neeeever happened.

 Tosh, on May 12 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

Could K'rul be in the hold of dragons, if he is not in some way draconic? Can an elder god be draconic? Who came first, the eldergod or the eleint?

K'rul does have draconic blood, I believe, as per my earlier list of "mixed blood" Soletaken -- I think his name was given as such in MT, and it was given again in the list of mixed-blood sealers of SD. I'll try to dig up the exact page. However, since he has made of his veins the warrens and the dragons are aspected to those warrens, the blood may not be literal, as in the case of Rake et al. I think the point is more that SD is a "foreign" realm/influence, and K'rul, by taking the warrens into himself and ordering them, has thus introduced it into his own bloodstream. (Besides, just because he hasn't veered doesn't mean the blood's not still in him -- Paran has the blood of Hounds, remember.)

 Lisheo, on May 12 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

 Khellendros, on May 12 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Consort is one of the crucified dragons, no? 'Writhing on a tree', a dramatic way of saying crucified on blackwood?

It's been suggested by someone that the consort is the Otataral Dragon, iirc.

By me, among others. However, as has been pointed out, the OD is stated, at least by Pearl, to be female. I still think it'd be a nice compliment to the mother of magic, and Pearl could be wrong, but the veracity of the claim is still up in the air. However, I think the odds of the Consort being crucified are very high.

[Fox]

 dawnkiller, on May 12 2009, 10:17 PM, said:

 Hetan, on May 12 2009, 02:18 PM, said:

ah! my bad.

Shh. You didn't misread, and I didn't miss the whole "olar" thing. Neeeever happened.

 Tosh, on May 12 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

Could K'rul be in the hold of dragons, if he is not in some way draconic? Can an elder god be draconic? Who came first, the eldergod or the eleint?

K'rul does have draconic blood, I believe, as per my earlier list of "mixed blood" Soletaken -- I think his name was given as such in MT, and it was given again in the list of mixed-blood sealers of SD. I'll try to dig up the exact page. However, since he has made of his veins the warrens and the dragons are aspected to those warrens, the blood may not be literal, as in the case of Rake et al. I think the point is more that SD is a "foreign" realm/influence, and K'rul, by taking the warrens into himself and ordering them, has thus introduced it into his own bloodstream. (Besides, just because he hasn't veered doesn't mean the blood's not still in him -- Paran has the blood of Hounds, remember.)

 Lisheo, on May 12 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

 Khellendros, on May 12 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Consort is one of the crucified dragons, no? 'Writhing on a tree', a dramatic way of saying crucified on blackwood?

It's been suggested by someone that the consort is the Otataral Dragon, iirc.

By me, among others. However, as has been pointed out, the OD is stated, at least by Pearl, to be female. I still think it'd be a nice compliment to the mother of magic, and Pearl could be wrong, but the veracity of the claim is still up in the air. However, I think the odds of the Consort being crucified are very high.

Probably by the various entities that were sheboinging/drinking Tiam's blood. If I was a consort I'd probably object to that.

[Hetan]

 Abyss, on May 12 2009, 10:45 PM, said:

 Osseric's mortal sword, on May 12 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

"The Hold of the Dragon. Eleint Tiam purake setoram n'brael buras ("Children of the mother Tiam lost in all that they surrendered") . . . The Eleint would destroy all in their paths to achieve vengeance. As we all shall see in the long night to come. The Queen lies dead and may never again rise. The Consort writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release. The Liege is lost, dragging chains in a world where to walk is to endure, where to halt is to be devoured. The Knight strides his own doomed path, soon to cross blades with his own vengeance. Gate rages with wild fire. Wyval -- Locqui Wyval waits. The Lady and the Sister dance round each other, each on her own side of the world. Blood-drinker waits as well, waits to be found. Path-Shaper knows fever in his blood and staggers on the edge of the precipice." --Midnight Tides, p.207-208

Queen = Tiam, aka 'Mother of Dragons'
Consort = at that time i figure Silchas, who was still stuck under the Azath but getting better. It's been suggested he wasn't exactly sane when he got out.
Liege = Draconus, still in chains then.
Knight = Rake for reasons now obvious
Gate = the Otataral dragon seems possible but Clip is also a contender for this position.
Loqui Wyval = the wyval possessing Udinaas
Lady = Envy
Sister = Spite
Blood-drinker = Silchas also fits this one, but i can't help but wonder if it's a ref to Heuk, who worships apprently Draconus, and drank blood for power once he was found and required to act.
Path Shaper = Krul, who was being poisoned by the CG at the time.

- Abyss, scotch drinker.

I had Menandore for Gate. It was kinda confirmed in RG when both Hood and Shadowthrone visited her to ask permission to access the gate to SD.
Blood-drinker is Silchas
Path-Shaper is of course K'rul
Consort - is a problem and I have no idea who that is but I'm still thinking about it

[Skywalker]

Yeah, I don't think Consort has featured on-screen as yet. Could be the Otataral dragon, but we don't know yet.

Although Hetan's smiley makes me suspicious that she knowz from DoD... hmm?

[dawnkiller]

Flipped through some of the books last night. Thus, I give you MOAR QUOTES.


Starvald Demelain:

Black volcanic ash, beneath a vast sky nearly as black, despite at least three suns blazing in the sky overhead. And, on this rough plain, stretching on all sides in horrific proliferation, there were dragons.
Humped, mutionless. Scores - hundreds. --RG p.725

The shattering of bones and wings had come from age, not violence. None of these beasts were sprawled out in death. None revealed gaping wounds. They had each settled into their final postures.
'Like blue flies on the sill of a window,' Udinaas had said. 'Wrong side, trying to get out. But the window stayed closed. To them, maybe to everyone, every thing. Or . . . maybe not every thing.' And then he had smiled, as if the thought had amused him.
They had seen the gate {to the Refugium} that was clearly their destination from a great distance away, and indeed it seemed the dragon mounds were more numerous the closer they came, crowding in on all sides. . . .
The lifeless air tasted foul to Seren Pedac, as if immeasurable grief tainted every breath drawn in this realm, a bleak redolence that would not fade even after countless millennia. -- RG p.788-789

'It was a realm of storms. And beasts, countless beasts coming from those holes. They did not know what they were, but there was much fighting. The bonecaster realized that the breaches must be sealed, and so she drew upon the power of stone and earth, then rose into her new, eternal body to stand before the wounds. And hold all with stillness. She stands there now and she shall stand there for all time. . . . This land is a path, what we would call a road. Herds migrate, back and forth. They seem to come from nowhere, but they always come. . . . we are in an . . . overflow? Where the road comes from has bled out to claim the road itself. And surround this place. Beyond, there is . . . nothing. Oblivion. Unrealized. . . . He calls this hold Starvald Demelain.' -- Ulshun Pral via Rud Elalle on the Refugium, MT p.431


Draconean Blood Is Weird:

Where their blood had spilled out onto the ground wraiths had gathered like flies to sap and were now ensnared . . . as the blood darkened, fusing with the lifeless soil; and, when at last the substance grew indurate, hardening into glassy stone, those ghosts were doomed to an eternity trapped within that murky prison. -- RG p.1

Draconean blood hardening into stone . . . sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood's aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood. -- RG p.2


Wyval:

Loqcui Wyval. That is our name. Spawn of Starvald Demelain, the squalid children whom none would claim as their own. We are as flies spreading across a rotting feast, one realm after another. D'isthal Wyvalla, Enkar'al, Trol, we are a plague of demons in a thousand pantheons. -- MT p.143


This Could Be Total BS:

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33


Sukul Ankhadu Like Totally Hates Her Parents: A Dialogue

'This is a dread mess. I would wash my hands of it - all of it.'
'But you can't. We're all poisoned by the mother's blood, after all--'
'Her daughters have fared worse than poison! There is nothing balanced to this shattering of selves. Look at us! Spiteful bitches - Tiam's squalling heads rearing up again and again, generation after generation! And what of you, Father? That she-nightmare sails out on feathered wings from the dark of another realm, legs spread oh so wide and inviting, and were you not first in line? Pure Osserc, First Son of Dark and Light, so precious! Yet there you were, weaving your blood with that whore - tell us, did you proclaim her your sister before or after you fucked her?'
'You shouldn't speak of your mother that way, Sukul. She died giving birth to you, after all--'
'She died giving birth to us all! Dies, and is reborn. Tiam and her children. Tiam and her lovers. Her thousand deaths, and yet nothing changes!' -- Osserc, Menadore, and Sukul Ankhadu right before chucking Sheltatha Lore into an Azath, MT p.196-197


Misc:

- Menadore at the very least can grant the use of the Starvald Demelain gate; she does so to ST in RG, p.125. Logical to assume all Soletaken can, as mixed-bloods sealed it.
- Two of three of Scabandari's original sins, as enumerated in tBH by the three chained dragons (shedding draconean blood and opening a gate/wound in KE) are seen in the prologue of RG as Kilmandaros walks through KE, past dead dragons and a bleeding rent. On the very first page she passes six dead dragons while three living ones fly overhead (possibly the three later chained; as it is mentioned that interlopers are already fighting over the scraps).
- The list of pureblood dragons and mixed-bloods who sealed SD is given on MT p.432
- Sorrit is named as one of Rake's "original court" by Spinnock in TtH p.45

[Khellendros]

 dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 02:26 PM, said:

This Could Be Total BS:

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

Do we have any idea who this one who refused to accept K'rul's bargain is supposed to be?

[Blend]

 Khellendros, on May 13 2009, 03:18 PM, said:

 dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 02:26 PM, said:

This Could Be Total BS:

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

Do we have any idea who this one who refused to accept K'rul's bargain is supposed to be?

Don't quote me on this, but I figure it's Draconus, as he'd be inside the sword by then, no?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hmm. Idon't think that Draconus is a First Born. I took First Born as pure blood Eleint and Draconus is Soletaken. Didn't someone come up with the Otataral dragon being the one who didn't accept the bargain?

[dawnkiller]

Quote

Sukul Ankhadu Like Totally Hates Her Parents: A Dialogue

'This is a dread mess. I would wash my hands of it - all of it.'
'But you can't. We're all poisoned by the mother's blood, after all--'
'Her daughters have fared worse than poison! There is nothing balanced to this shattering of selves. Look at us! Spiteful bitches - Tiam's squalling heads rearing up again and again, generation after generation! And what of you, Father? That she-nightmare sails out on feathered wings from the dark of another realm, legs spread oh so wide and inviting, and were you not first in line? Pure Osserc, First Son of Dark and Light, so precious! Yet there you were, weaving your blood with that whore - tell us, did you proclaim her your sister before or after you fucked her?'
'You shouldn't speak of your mother that way, Sukul. She died giving birth to you, after all--'
'She died giving birth to us all! Dies, and is reborn. Tiam and her children. Tiam and her lovers. Her thousand deaths, and yet nothing changes!' -- Osserc, Menadore, and Sukul Ankhadu right before chucking Sheltatha Lore into an Azath, MT p.196-197

Okay, now that I'm not rushing to the office, some observations, because IMO this one is really fertile:

Osserc seems to have been the first to drink of/do the dragon dance with Tiam, so there's that. He also called Tiam his sister. On MT p.197 he says that MD was cabale of creating life without a sire, and that her first children were not the Tiste Andii no matter what Rake said. According to Sukul's little tirade, Osserc is the first son of Dark and Light, so would this make Tiam also one of the offspring of MD, like the elder gods? There are already parallels -- the Andii being a heartbroken and bereft race because MD turned her back on them, and the prevading sense of sorrow felt upon arrival to SD -- plus the fact it seems the dragons simply gave up and waited to die. Also interesting is that it seems Tiam, like MD, sought out companionship if the comment about sailing out from the dark of another realm is any indication.

I think the place where this starts getting messed up is 'There is nothing balanced to this shattering of selves. Look at us! Spiteful bitches - Tiam's squalling heads rearing up again and again, generation after generation'. Come to think of it, I don't think we've seen any female, second-gen draconic soletaken who hasn't completely hated her kin -- Spite and Envy can't stand each other, Menadore and Sukul Ankhadu are not much better, and neither of them are any fonder of their cousin Sheltatha Lore. Her "thousand deaths" and "shattering of selves" . . . is there some kind of weird identity splitting going on amongst her daughters? Is she trying to . . . I don't know . . . find the right balance, somehow?

This is a quote from Bottle regarding the child of Trull and the Eres'al, who will theoretically one day become heir of Shadow, but it may explain Tiam's promiscuity:

I can see so little . . . not human, not even of this world, barring what the Eres'al herself brought to the union. Thus, an intruder. From another realm, a realm bereft of innocence. To make them part of this world, one of their kind must be born . . . in this way. Their blood must be drawn into this world's flow of blood. -- tBH p.209

So it seems "weaving blood" is a way of legitimizing a foothold in a foreign realm. And one of the sisters' big complaints about Sheltatha Lore was she shacked up with local elder god Draconus . . .

[lord of tragedy]

i had thought that the elder gods preceeded rake and osserc as her first children, isn't there some cosmos building quote where erikson describes her fashioning them and them then in turn discovering wu? i may have dreamt that? i also always sensed that MD is the most important figure in the pantheon, hence rakes sacrifice to her, and that she is the prize that they are all fighting for.

but if she is the arch figure what is Krul? does MD transcend warrens or is she aspected to all warrens at once and thus by opening his veins he has opened up a way to her or is his identity intrinsically linked to hers? was she closed off from the elder gods too?

why did the dragons all face refugium? did it offer them eternal life? or was it a way into the realm of death and is the draconion revenge thats mentioned revenge on death itself?

[lobo the wolfman]

The dragons where all facing the refugium because they where trying to get out off SD. After the first born took K'rul's deal, him and the rest of the soletaken sealed them up into SD with the feral dragons, to stop them flying all over the realms and damaging the new system off warrens he had put in place. The gates in the Refugium where the only way out for the dragons but the T'lan Imass bonecaster sealed it off to keep the refugium safe so the dragons just sat down staring at their only way out, then gave up and died.

I don't the quote your talking about Lord of tragedy, but i think only Osserc has impled that the Elder gods came from MD. The three dragons in Shadow talking to Cotillion said that:
"Even when Darkness ruled alone, there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light. Bound only to their own laws."

That seems to me that the coming of MD, and the creation of the elder gods are separate.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 13 May 2009 - 09:27 PM

[Abyss]

Actually, it seems that only the feral dragons were sealed up in SD. Since we know of at least five aspected purebloods (Silanah, Sorrit, Kalse, Ampelas and Whatsisname) who were definitely not locked in.

There's a bit of a question mark there - on the one hand we have MT where Rud tells us the draconic soletaken sealed the gate, but on the other hand also in MT there was the Imass bonecaster doing her imitation of a crystal pillar.

These were two separate events an unknown amount of time apart.

At a guess, the mixed bloods locked down SD way back whenevre Krul worked his mojo on the holds/warrens, and later the Bonecaster locked down the First Empire portals, a consequence of which is that those portals now link to SD in some sideways fashion that the dragons couldn't use, or were already dead by the time the fall of the FE and related Imass attack happened.

The Refugium didn't exist when the Bonecaster sealed the FE portals. It came after because the souls of her clan were locked in a pocket and somehow Gothos dropped off the Finnest for them to hang on to.... wait... Gothos.. Finnest... First Tiste Invasion... oh screw it, the timeline is not important, the timeline is NOT important...


- Abyss, ...NOT IMPORTANT NOT NOT THE TIMELINE IS NOT....

[HoosierDaddy]

 Abyss, on May 13 2009, 05:31 PM, said:

Actually, it seems that only the feral dragons were sealed up in SD. Since we know of at least five aspected purebloods (Silanah, Sorrit, Kalse, Ampelas and Whatsisname) who were definitely not locked in.

There's a bit of a question mark there - on the one hand we have MT where Rud tells us the draconic soletaken sealed the gate, but on the other hand also in MT there was the Imass bonecaster doing her imitation of a crystal pillar.

These were two separate events an unknown amount of time apart.

At a guess, the mixed bloods locked down SD way back whenevre Krul worked his mojo on the holds/warrens, and later the Bonecaster locked down the First Empire portals, a consequence of which is that those portals now link to SD in some sideways fashion that the dragons couldn't use, or were already dead by the time the fall of the FE and related Imass attack happened.

The Refugium didn't exist when the Bonecaster sealed the FE portals. It came after because the souls of her clan were locked in a pocket and somehow Gothos dropped off the Finnest for them to hang on to.... wait... Gothos.. Finnest... First Tiste Invasion... oh screw it, the timeline is not important, the timeline is NOT important...


- Abyss, ...NOT IMPORTANT NOT NOT THE TIMELINE IS NOT....

Huh? This is the second time the HFE and portals has been brought up. I am massively missing something here. Where is this discussed, Abyss?

[dawnkiller]

 Abyss, on May 13 2009, 04:31 PM, said:

At a guess, the mixed bloods locked down SD way back whenevre Krul worked his mojo on the holds/warrens, and later the Bonecaster locked down the First Empire portals, a consequence of which is that those portals now link to SD in some sideways fashion that the dragons couldn't use, or were already dead by the time the fall of the FE and related Imass attack happened.

The Refugium didn't exist when the Bonecaster sealed the FE portals. It came after because the souls of her clan were locked in a pocket and somehow Gothos dropped off the Finnest for them to hang on to.... wait... Gothos.. Finnest... First Tiste Invasion... oh screw it, the timeline is not important, the timeline is NOT important...


- Abyss, ...NOT IMPORTANT NOT NOT THE TIMELINE IS NOT....

Thanks, AbysScotchtaken, I think your brain explosion just took out mine, too. The only things I feel solid on (since this is mostly taken from prologues through various books, though sometimes presented out of order and from different viewpoints) follows:

- Osserc makes it with Tiam, begetting Sukul Akhandu and Menadore.
- Scabandari makes it with Tiam and begets Sheltatha Lore. (I like using beget, makes me feel biblical.)
- Sheltatha Lore hooks up with Draconus, and they beget Spite and Envy.
- Rake kills (presumably permanently) and drinks of Tiam, alienates MD, and Silchas Ruin (and probably a ton of others) imbibe shortly after. Rake disappears for a while, which makes Stabby careless.
- KE is shattered when Stabandari apparently kills or instigates the killing of dragons in the warren, kills the Edur royal line, and tears open a big ol' rent/gate. During this time Ampelas, Kalse and Eloth attempt to assume the throne in order to heal KE.
- War of the Andii and Edur vs. the KCCM on Wu. The Imass, FA and Jaghut already exist at this point, because all are mentioned. Silchas Ruin is backstabbed, Sheltatha Lore is chucked in an Azath house for making out with Draconus, and Kilmandaros negotiates with Stabandari's skull. Gothos Ritualizes the area and seals Stabandari's soul into a stone Imass knife to create a Finnest, which eventually ends up with Ulshun Pral. (Who, for temporal reference, was conceived right before the Tellann Ritual, and who Kilava appears to have stopped nursing only shortly before finding the two Jaghut children by Morn, as seen in the MoI prologue.)

...okay. That wasn't as much as I thought.

Although, agreed with HD -- whereabouts is the ref to the Bonecaster sealing the First Empire portals, Deadhouse Gates?

Edit: Argh, and you're right. If SD was closed so magic would not "cease to be predictable," as stated in tBH, was it only those dragons who weren't Shapers of the Blood, or those dragons who didn't agree to play nice? Because that may explain that passage from Dark and Light, where it talks about how the children of the First Blood were "bereft of all they would have inherited", and also what they sacrificed as referenced in the casting of the tiles quote -- the ability to travel freely between realms, or possibly define their own aspects rather than follow that which K'rul had negotiated for.

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 13 May 2009 - 10:05 PM

[Skywalker]

 Blend, on May 13 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

 Khellendros, on May 13 2009, 03:18 PM, said:

 dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 02:26 PM, said:

This Could Be Total BS:

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

Do we have any idea who this one who refused to accept K'rul's bargain is supposed to be?

Don't quote me on this, but I figure it's Draconus, as he'd be inside the sword by then, no?

The one who didn't accept K'ruls bargain was Silannah, for love of Anomander Rake.

The First Born were pure-blood dragons like Sorrit, Ampelas, Kalse, etc. that became engaged in dialogue with K'rul and shaped the warrens. They didn't get quarantined in SD. Apparently SD remaining open and therefore draconic blood being available for those who wanted to drink of it was a big enough threat to inspire the soletaken (Rake, Osserc, the three sisters, etc.) to seal it permanently and lock the dragons in to literally curl up and die.

So we are left with three events: Rake and Co lock SD with dragons inside, the Shattering of KE, and the sacrifice of the Bonecaster to secure the gate to SD. I think it was in that order.

Rake and Co's feud with the pureblood dragons must pre-date all else since there weren't that many dragons left free by the time KE shattered (only some feral ones begotten by the first generation and the pureblood K'rul warren partners, seemingly). So then KE shatters after Scabby's betrayal, and Killy and Rake go on a bashing spree and cleanse things. They probably chain a multitude of dragons including the infamous trio that met Cotillion in BH. Then Killy betrays Rake and ends up underwater for the effort.

Meanwhile, the gate to SD isn't as solidly secure as Rake had thought. From the quote:

Ulshun Pral on the Refugium, MT p.431 said:

'It was a realm of storms. And beasts, countless beasts coming from those holes. They did not know what they were, but there was much fighting. The bonecaster realized that the breaches must be sealed, and so she drew upon the power of stone and earth, then rose into her new, eternal body to stand before the wounds. And hold all with stillness. She stands there now and she shall stand there for all time. . . . This land is a path, what we would call a road. Herds migrate, back and forth. They seem to come from nowhere, but they always come. . . . we are in an . . . overflow? Where the road comes from has bled out to claim the road itself. And surround this place. Beyond, there is . . . nothing. Oblivion. Unrealized. . . . He calls this hold Starvald Demelain.'

So beasts - not DRAGONS, just beasts, maybe enkaral and wyval and the like - were pouring from the SD gate that wouldn't let dragons pass. So the Imass bonecaster does her thing and double seals it, this time against everything.

That makes the timeline, which isn't important, make a bit of sense methinks

[lobo the wolfman]

Silanah took K'rul's bargin, her aspect is Thyr, which she used to help the Imass make Tellann for thier ritural.

[Skywalker]

WTF?

Really?

I thought she's unaspected. Do you have any quotes?

[lobo the wolfman]

Cot when talking to the three dragons in shadow.
Also in that conversation it was mentioned that after the deal, the dragons that where aspected were compelled to return back into SD in order to protect the sources of sorcery, and to stop them from interfering.