[MTS]

I was just doing a re-read of this book, and came across a scene where travel through the Imperial Warren is discussed. Possum says [the warren is a death trap] "only to those who aren't authorised to use it." I never really understood the whole Topper/Ragman/Tatterdemalion sequence, but it seemed to me that this implied Topper purposely went missing, on Laseen's orders, to prevent Mallick's Claws using the Imperial Warren to destabilise the Empire, before Mallick was even on the scene. Is this true? If so, it shows a remarkable amount of foresight on Laseen's part. But I remember Possum also stating that he was sending "no more into that death trap". That seemed to me a contradiction, because, if he knew about Topper, would he not be able to get agents by him through communication with Laseen?

Also, when Topper has the fight with the girl, who is the "him" that is referred to? The father bit made me think it was Apsalar, but I never thought she would go down that easy, and I would think Dancer to be a match for Topper easily.

[Lisheo]

Laseen has always been quite intelligent, RotCG proved that, and she does show remarkable foresight sometimes.
Also, Topper went mising after the events in Aren, iirc, so it could have simply been prudent planning.
I suspect Laseen didn't tell anyone about Topper being in the warren, in case it was leaked to the Black Glove; she may not have trusted Possum.

And as for the fight; well, we still don't know.

[Abyss]

It was all Laseen's plan. Send Topper into the warren WAY ahead of the confrontation with the Crimson Guard or Mallick's Black Glove. don't tell ANYONE, not even Possum, the dude who replaces Topper as top Claw.

Since NO ONE can use the IW, including 'loyal' Claw, no one suspects that it's Topper, or that it's Laseen's plan. Denying the IW to the glove limits Mallick's ability to spread his influence quickly. Denying it to the Veils means the Guard can't use it to attack the Empire. Same goes for the Old Guard - their mages can't use it or move troops thru it.

So, the Veils can't use it, and the Glove can't use it. Neither can the Claw, but Laseen's already planned for that.

And word gets around that Topper is 'gone'. No one knows where, but it appears that Laseen is vulnerable.

The Old Guard makes its move and can only attack overland. Laseen's armies stop them, no one uses the IW.
The Crimson Guard make their move, and Laseen's armies now with the Old Guard manage to hold them. Laseen moves into the open to draw out Cowl, and when he attacks, at Laseen's signal, Topper, probably the only non-god mage-assassin who can match Cowl, jumps out of the IW and attacks Cowl, effectively taking Cowl out of play and denying the Crimson Guard its most powerful mage AND assassin.

And then Laseen can use the IW to move her troops, knowing that no other faction has yet realized the warren is useable (not safe, but..).

The real nasty part of this plan is that Laseen sacrificed any number of 'loyal' Claw to establish the cover that the warren was completely cut off from use.

It shows both how clever, ruthless and long-planning Laseen was and how loyal Topper was. And then of course ICE kills her, dammit.

- Abyss, impressed.

[blackzoid]

Hang on, when did Topper go missing anyway?
He appears in HOC to give the news to Tavore that Onearms hoist was decimated.
So did he go missing after that? I assume so, but he let Pearl and Lostar(spelling) use the IW to search for Felisin.


Perhaps he didn't start keeping the IW clear until after the Bonehunters? He may have gone missing before when Lassen began to suspect infiltration of the Claw and he was perhaps told to spy out the IW and report unusual Claw activity back to Lassen. Then when she got confirmation at the end of the Bonehunters, she tells Topper to keep the IW clear of everyone (except the KCCM who he realistically cannot defeat anyway)
I somehow doubt Lassen would on purpose let her own Claw get infiltrated. She reacted after the fact came to light. (Lassen wasn't omniscient)

[Dolorous Menhir]

blackzoid, on May 6 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

Perhaps he didn't start keeping the IW clear until after the Bonehunters? He may have gone missing before when Lassen began to suspect infiltration of the Claw and he was perhaps told to spy out the IW and report unusual Claw activity back to Lassen. Then when she got confirmation at the end of the Bonehunters, she tells Topper to keep the IW clear of everyone (except the KCCM who he realistically cannot defeat anyway) I somehow doubt Lassen would on purpose let her own Claw get infiltrated. She reacted after the fact came to light. (Lassen wasn't omniscient)

That seems reasonable. Topper's absence was first noted in BH, when Kalam was offered the role of Clawmaster by Laseen.

[foolio]

yeah, it was well after the Aren thing. Topper appears in GOTM and that is well after Aren, right?

Doesnt it seem like sending claws or anyone in the IW one at a time is kind of silly? Doesnt it seem like a horror movie where your like "dont seperate, whatever you do, oh no, they are seperating...?" and get killed one at a time. If the Cg or anyone used the IW en mass they would have been fine, right? Topper is scared of Nil and Nether,(or was it just Nether?) so I would assume the combined power of the CG would have scared him also...

[Abyss]

Topper's dissappearance was first noted in TB.

And the IW is sufficiently weird by itself that its reputation might keep people away.

Plus everyone involved was trying to be subtle, and moving masses of troops through a hostile warren isn't exactly that.

- Abyss, ....can refute your puny 'logic' and 'reasoning'...

[MTS]

The CG did move their army through a warren to get to Tali, so what was to stop them doing it again? In fact, when Topper finally comes out of hiding, I'm fairly sure K'azz and Shimmer fully intend to use the IW, no matter what is in there. Mind you, they're sufficiently badass to take almost anything.

[Rahvinn]

Im also confused by what Topper says to the female claw before he zaps her by saying he recognised 'his' style, who could it be?
I imagine Dancers style would be fairly common knowledge

Also Topper uses KG to zap the class, very controlled KG I might add
The mad priest uses the blood to awaken KG as such or whatever he does, but Topper seems to be able to control it at will, most the time KG is used its unleashed more than anything else
He has the power

[Urizen]

Rahvinn, on May 11 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

Im also confused by what Topper says to the female claw before he zaps her by saying he recognised 'his' style, who could it be?
I imagine Dancers style would be fairly common knowledge

Also Topper uses KG to zap the class, very controlled KG I might add
The mad priest uses the blood to awaken KG as such or whatever he does, but Topper seems to be able to control it at will, most the time KG is used its unleashed more than anything else
He has the power

Well Dancers style, that the the Talons use, has not been around for some 10-15 years. Their style would be uncommon.

Topper uses KG beacuse he's half-Andii.

[Rahvinn]

Ah yeah, was confused because i thought Pearl was the only one who was part Andii
Pearl is 1/4 Andii isnt he or am I getin confuzzled?

[MTS]

Urizen, on May 12 2009, 05:55 AM, said:

Topper uses KG beacuse he's half-Andii.

Topper is 1/4 Andii, not half, if I'm not mistaken. And Rahvinn, you're confusing Pearl with Topper. He tells us when he meets Paran in GotM.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

No.No. Topper says to Paran in GotM that he is half-Andii. Later Pearl tells to Lostara that he is 1/4 Andii in HoC as they're entering the Whirlwind.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 12 May 2009 - 05:57 PM

[Abyss]

Take it one further - Topper's mother was an Andii from Drift Avalii, which means Topper is related to Rake by blood.

I also wonder whether Topper, unknown to Pearl, is Pearl's father, which would explain Pearl being 1/4 Andii as opposed to Topper's 1/2. I have no other basis for this theory other than the 1/2 - 1/4 Andii thing and the similar mannerisms in the early books.

- Abyss, relative.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Abyss, on May 12 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

Take it one further - Topper's mother was an Andii from Drift Avalii, which means Topper is related to Rake by blood.

You're confusing the two again. It's Pearl's mother who's a half-Andii from Drift Avalii, not Topper's.
So this would mean that for Pearl to be 1/4 Andii his father must have been human and so this crash your "Topper is Pearl's father" theory. Pity, because it wasn't really so bad.

[Abyss]

Crap. And it was SUCH a good theory too. Tho that means Pearl, not Topper was related to Rake. Not that it helped him much in the end.

- Abyss, now has to reformulate the whole thing...

[tiam]

i always thought topper was sent into the IW to train aswell. I know it sounds odd but Topper was Cols rival but Kalam states that he was in his tower with his whores and sycophants and he would never be like that. Makes me think Laseen made topper aware of Cowls return and sent jhim into the Imperial warren to train against the black glove and a few normal claw to add to the mess mentioned above.

\\\\\\\\\anway the training idea made sense to me

[blackzoid]

Its confusing that Cowl is considered the nemesis of Tayschrenn, Dancer and Topper.
Thats what you get for being an uber-Mage/Assassin I guess.
I mean Topper get ready in the IW for Cowl's retrun, but he didn't fight Cowl back then, it was Dancer who did that.
Topper wasn't around duwing the initial conquest of Quan Tali?
Plus the whole Veil's been started by Cowl in response to Dancer's Talons.
And the mage front it was Tayschrenn against Cowl.

Where did Cowl find the time to be an alter-ego of Topper as well? That guy got around.

[lobo the wolfman]

Topper was around in the conquest of Quan Tali, it was Topper that killed the old Unta royal familiy before the Emperor took over. Cowl is just the nemesis of however is head of the claw, as the Claw and the Veil are pretty much the same thing. Besides Cowl can't really compere to Dancer now, he wouldn't stand a chance.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 14 May 2009 - 11:33 AM

[Rahvinn]

I dont think Cowls power is a match in brute force for Tay, i always thought of Cowl more like Quick Ben in ways because hes damn smart and his power localised into a singular purpose ie kill shit, is unmatched

On his walk to confront Tay he says his blades are aspected/invested to that they should kill him, if Tay let loose id say all that would be left of the palace would be a smoldering ruin and a pair of smoking shoes where Cowl had stood

I think its when Skinner is talking to Kyle (could be another time) he says Dancer has killed most the mages during the Guards flight after the dispora, but Cowl made him pay for it, so it seemed they were the main rivals. Topper even says to Cowls claim of being undefeated that Dancer once took him, at that moment Cowl thoughtfully taps his blades to the pearly scars at his throat, a gift from dancer?

This post has been edited by Rahvinn: 14 May 2009 - 12:00 PM