[Omtose]

Tennes, on Apr 28 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

The biggest thing that has stood out for me is the fact that other then Fener it has mostly been the quieter players who have died. That to me suggests a killer or killers who are among the higher posters and are targeting people who irritate them the low posters. I also find it strange that Emu was under so much suspicion earlier and now has totally faded into the back ground. When I get time next I am going to do a reread of his posts and see if anything pops out.

This is what I mean about Shadow and his broad statements, he has been vocal but he's been all over the place with the finger pointing. There's never anything specific, just a few nudges to make us look in a certain direction without incriminating himself. He hasn't come up with anything original and I think we have been giving him a free ride because he makes a statement every now and then and goes with the popular vote. If you look at ir more closely, since the D'riss case when has he actually gone out on a limb and suggested something other than what has already been said by others. I also don't like the way he suddenly swung around and pointed the finger at Ano but then backtracked the minute he was under pressure. Something is not right there.

I'm interested to see what you find on Emu, I will go take a look at him myself.

[Tennes]

You guys are rushing things right along aren't you. I find that there is a lot of good points about Shadow. But I am a little hesitant to speed lynch someone just yet. I think that I will hold for joining you guys while I read up on Emurlahn.

[Emurlahn]

Lolwut? The only one who was really pushing to lynch me was Fener, and he was really loud about it. As far as I can recall, other than his pushing the only votes on me were joke votes.

[Omtose]

Emurlahn, on Apr 28 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

Lolwut? The only one who was really pushing to lynch me was Fener, and he was really loud about it. As far as I can recall, other than his pushing the only votes on me were joke votes.

Do you have any thoughts on anything or anything to put forth Emu?

[Ampelas]

Yeah, Fener was loud about everything he pushed. A real finder would never play like that, he'd play more like Kesso did.

EDIT: cross @Emu

This post has been edited by Ampelas: 28 April 2009 - 06:38 PM

[Ampelas]

Hmmm, just read Emu's posts. Mostly its vehement defence of himself, coupled with lots of votes. I think he was on every lynch train but Tellan's, which didn't go through anyways. He also defended Mockra before Fener's reveal.

[Anomandaris]

@tennes - there is just so little on everyone else and its not like i dont have suspicions of shadow, i guarded him one night for a reason.

[Serc]

Grr. internet keeps dropping whenever I post - am trying to contribute but lost three posts now Hopefully this one goes through

The Shadow case isn't impossible, but it might be a bit of a stretch. Worth checking out but let's not speedlynch him.

[Omtose]

I do agree with Tenes that we shouldn't speed lynch Shadow, I stand behind my vote and what I said about him, but I want to hear what he has to say. His reaction could actually tell us alot, so lets continue to look for evidence and then hear how he defends himself. It's going to have to be a pretty good defence to change my mind at this point. I am also willing to consider other cases that may be put forth if they are stonger, for now though my vote stands.

We should also look at others who may be connected to Shadow somehow. I'm going to do some reading.

[Ampelas]

Yeah, the big problem is that just before I finished writing my case, Shadow said he was leaving for a couple hours. Or was it for bed? I don't remember, but yeah, that rather sucks.

[Serc]

The theory amp put forward might also explain Meanas's initial code/signal thing, she was mentioning something that Shadow brought up, but let's try not to retcon info. I see Tennes hasnt had a reread done on him yet, I was going to but I think looking at Meanas's early game again might be a good move. Will check Tennes if I get time, my main motivation is that i cant really remember him saying anything significant. Not scummy in itself but he does seem to be cruising.

And the way emur keeps dropping from sight is maybe a little suspicious.

[Ampelas]

I'll take a preliminary look at Tennes while you're doing that. Might not get as much as you would, but hey, I'm trying to contribute now

[Omtose]

Ampelas, on Apr 28 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

Yeah, the big problem is that just before I finished writing my case, Shadow said he was leaving for a couple hours. Or was it for bed? I don't remember, but yeah, that rather sucks.

I know he did some major back pedaling and then took off. It almost made me wonder if he buggered off to avoid having to defend himself and was hoping someone else would bring something up or defend him. It's more than likely a RL situation but it does suck! As I said though I'm standing behind this one, I feel this is one of our better cases so far and at least it's not the same old Mockra circle argument. If people want to join the train because they feel the case is good and he's not back I'm not going to slow it down.

[Omtose]

Serc, on Apr 28 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

The theory amp put forward might also explain Meanas's initial code/signal thing, she was mentioning something that Shadow brought up, but let's try not to retcon info. I see Tennes hasnt had a reread done on him yet, I was going to but I think looking at Meanas's early game again might be a good move. Will check Tennes if I get time, my main motivation is that i cant really remember him saying anything significant. Not scummy in itself but he does seem to be cruising.

And the way emur keeps dropping from sight is maybe a little suspicious.

Looking over Meanas again is a good idea as that whole situation is still weird. I will go tale a look now.

[Tennes]

Emurlahn has so few posts that I am just going to put them up.

Emurlahn, on Apr 26 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

Also, take note of the 13 hour gap between those 2 posts. By stringing one quote after another, the mind doesn't take into account time differences between each (as opposed to how it would in context). Consequently, you're making it seem like Mockra's jumping back and forth, revealing slips and whatnot. But those 2 posts are on different game days, referring to different trains.

Mockra "ignored" me when there 2 people joke voted me in the beginning of the game (apparently without the proper "vote name" form, since a search for "vote emurlahn" reveals absolutely nothing but one of my own posts). He then proceeded to "defend" me, as you construe it, by pointing out how it was funny that you voted me for hammering when later evidence indicated you were the hammer.


Honestly, your strawmanning is getting dull. You push like hell, Fener, trying to drive the game (despite its obvious lassitude), and proceed to make up half-bullshit cases in the process.

That, combined with your lame excuse for voting me (really? You want a counter-reveal on day ONE for someone who's already at L-1?). Please. How about I play the way you're playing--it's clear your demand for that was a clever ploy to get someone to reveal a role so you could NK them. How's that one?

Vote Fener

edit: formatting so it's less wall-of-text, and x-post with d'riss below.

Now I can't find to much wrong with his reaction to Fener. I felt that Fener was acting like a symp.

Emurlahn, on Apr 26 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Fener, on Apr 26 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

*snip*

Are you talking about the inconsistency about low posters? Yes, the posts were on different game days, but I don't see why that matters. But they do contradict each other. They suggest that Mockra does not actually believe what he's writing.

*snip*

I'm talking about the 2 consecutive posts where you make it seem like Mockra made slips where he didn't vote for me, then proceeded to vote for me.

This is were it seems as if Emulahn is defending Mockar while attacking Fener I admit that it is slim but it is really the only thing there.


I honestly don't like the mockra case much, and admittedly we have very little to go on for any case. I voted for you to prod for a reaction and didn't get what I would've liked (an explosion of rage given your aggressiveness so far, which is always entertaining).
And at that point, it leaves me with, well, nothing. I might do a reread when I get a chance.

remove vote

for now, but I'm still keeping fener in my mind as a last-resort lynch (although the fact that he is generating discussion is a point in his favor).

In the meantime, back to my pizza.

edit: spelling

Now this is a little bit more daming as it really looks like Emurlahn is strongly defending Mockra.

Emurlahn, on Apr 26 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

Fuck 2 finder reveals? -.-

I hate relying on finder reveals this much, but,

remove vote
vote mockra

Changes his vote only due to the twin finder reveals. Could easily be a scum seeing the way that the wind was blowing and getting on board to stay clear.

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 10:31 AM, said:

Fener, on Apr 27 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Oh, and btw Fener:

Shadow, on Apr 25 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

D, on Apr 25 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

@Shadow - I don't understand, unless I can't count, according to your figures there were 13 votes. What am I missing?

You're right......Fener's vote wasn't counted by Path-Shaper. Seems when Emurlahn voted Liosan was already technically lynched.

Shadow made this post, and Mockra apparently thought Shadow was saying that Fener was the hammer. Hell, the way it's worded, I thought the same thing until I rechecked the lynch train, but I'm fairly sure your vote was before D'riss's.

Also, P-S later confirmed Shadow's observation.

So Mockra thought it was ironic that you were attacking me for hammering when he thought that, in light of P-S's mistake, you were the hammer. (Who, in reality, is D'riss. What do you know?)

The main point is that my case against you was based on your behaviour when we all thought the vote count was right. That it subsequently turned out to be wrong is irrelevant. And Mockra missed that aspect of it, choosing to defend you with an irrelevancy.

Fener, the other half of your defense case revolved around two posts in which Mockra "reviewed" the active cases. You quoted both, with comments, in rapid succession despite the fact that they were on entirely different game days while implying that they were very close in proximity time-wise.

Mockra was doing nothing in the way of "defending" me, unless pointing out something you think is funny/ironic/hypocritical constitutes defenses. You've been bandying cases around like they're going out of style, and frankly, while you've been PI'ed if not CI'ed it still shouts SYMP! to me. But it's apparent that's not the case.

To recap:

I hammer Liosan, who as at L-1 with 1 hour or so left on the day timer
Fener votes me immediately after night resolves, claiming that I ruined Liosan's opportunity to reveal himself (really? Any reveal made at L-1 like that is bullshit without backup)
Shadow makes a post indicating that I was not the hammer, while implying (based on the wording, whether intentional or not I can't say) that Fener hammered
Mockra picks up on this, realizes that Fener had attacked him earlier, and thinks it's funny. He then makes a post about it with an amused "lol" appended at the end.
Fener decides that Mockra's "defense" right there and the fact that he didn't add me to his case review when I had 2-3 RP joke votes on me (when I said, "last call!") constitutes a scummy defense.

I mean, WTF? :Surprise:

Now we have Emulahn saying that Mockra was most definitely not defending him while we have seen Emulahn defending Mockra. I also noticed that Shadow seems to be defending Emulahn

Emurlahn, on Apr 27 2009, 10:55 AM, said:

So, Fener, I voted off my own killer partner? Is that what you're telling me?

Yes I said it then and I will say it again. Scum will vote off a partner if they think that the partner is going down. Especially in this game where one of the symps will be taking the killers place. Really what is to stop a symp from voting off the killer. I wouldn't even be surprised to see symps building cases on a killer in order to clear themselves when they become the killer.

That is all of it. I don't think that it is stronger then the case on Shadow but I do think that there is definitely something there.


Edited : To make things more clear.

This post has been edited by Tennes: 28 April 2009 - 07:24 PM

[Serc]

Omtose, on Apr 28 2009, 08:56 PM, said:

Ampelas, on Apr 28 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

Yeah, the big problem is that just before I finished writing my case, Shadow said he was leaving for a couple hours. Or was it for bed? I don't remember, but yeah, that rather sucks.

I know he did some major back pedaling and then took off. It almost made me wonder if he buggered off to avoid having to defend himself and was hoping someone else would bring something up or defend him. It's more than likely a RL situation but it does suck! As I said though I'm standing behind this one, I feel this is one of our better cases so far and at least it's not the same old Mockra circle argument. If people want to join the train because they feel the case is good and he's not back I'm not going to slow it down.

It's awfully convenient, I think I need to think about it some more before I place my vote.

[Tennes]

Anomandaris, on Apr 28 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

@tennes - there is just so little on everyone else and its not like i dont have suspicions of shadow, i guarded him one night for a reason.

Yeah I know I just went back and looked at all of Emulahns post. Not very many at all. I agree with the case on shadow but I want to wait for a while to see what come from the discussion. At this point we need all the discussion we can get.

[Serc]

Meanas, on Apr 26 2009, 09:23 PM, said:

Omtose, on Apr 26 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

Okay I read the conversation, I can see why you're worried about him being Fener's sypm. Just let me go back and take a look at his posts throughout the whole game to see if there are any more instances that could be added. I'm not completely sure but from what I've read I'm guessing the other part you're worried about is the fact that he may have pointed out a set of paired innos for all to see....yes?

That pretty much sums it up yes.


Edit: actually I'm starting to wonder if Fener is Shadow's symp, not the other way around.

Dunno when exactly this was posted, I think it's day two somewhere. In light of the recent conversation a total shot in the dark like that (was anyone else thinking this) could work pretty well as a signal. Then again, Shadow voted Meanas pretty early. It also occurs to me that Shadow has brought up something that could mean I'm scummy while claiming that he doesnt believe it makes me scum more than once. It may be counterintuitive, but it's the sort of thing I was talking about earlier. Testing the water and slowly building up suspicion so that later you can say 'well there is all that stuff we found earlier'. The case on Shadow is seeming a little better to me now, although I'm scared I'm only seeing stuff there because I'm looking for it...

[Emurlahn]

Where's the post where I defended Mockra, aside from saying I didn't like the case on him? I believe at that point, the extent of the case on him was the D'riss/Mockra "signalling/coding" crap. Not much of a case.

@Tennes: the post you quoted and said was "daming"...that post involved me pointing out that Fener misinterpreted a prior post and thought I was referring to something else (you'd have to read it all in context). Following that, I removed my vote because I liked his reaction to my vote and didn't think that was very indicative of scum.

As for my lack of posts...well, I got kinda boned on the random draws so I honestly don't feel as much motivation to contribute as I normally do. But aside from that, the last time I tried being loud I got nked night 1 and absolutely no one even possibly considered my death in conjunction to a massive pissing contest...turned out that the other guy was my killer.

That, plus a lot of work I promised myself I'd get done.

[Gamelon]

Omtose, on Apr 28 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

Tennes, on Apr 28 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

The biggest thing that has stood out for me is the fact that other then Fener it has mostly been the quieter players who have died. That to me suggests a killer or killers who are among the higher posters and are targeting people who irritate them the low posters. I also find it strange that Emu was under so much suspicion earlier and now has totally faded into the back ground. When I get time next I am going to do a reread of his posts and see if anything pops out.

This is what I mean about Shadow and his broad statements, he has been vocal but he's been all over the place with the finger pointing. There's never anything specific, just a few nudges to make us look in a certain direction without incriminating himself. He hasn't come up with anything original and I think we have been giving him a free ride because he makes a statement every now and then and goes with the popular vote. If you look at ir more closely, since the D'riss case when has he actually gone out on a limb and suggested something other than what has already been said by others. I also don't like the way he suddenly swung around and pointed the finger at Ano but then backtracked the minute he was under pressure. Something is not right there.

I'm interested to see what you find on Emu, I will go take a look at him myself.

Omtose, I could not agree more, and stuff below is partly rpeating what you said.

During work, I did some thinking. It's still in the theory state so it may not be the best case at all and I may end up doing it more harm then good. Because I just got back (damned scheduling and food shopping!) I don't have any quotes, can get those tomorrow though - champion's league tonight, they're showing the Barca game, it's a must see, so I'll skip out after this post and will only be back during half time.

Shadow has been targeting several people more or less consistently without ever really solidifying a case all by himself (here's where I need quotes).
We've lynched several of those connected with Mockra, and we got Mockra and Gem. The last one of that 'group' that we took down was D'riss a few hours ago, and look, Shadow was stating then that we were doing this mostly on Omtose's behalf... conveniently leaving out that he himself has been very busy fingering people as well. Almost like he felt that this was one inno result too many on a lynch for his credibility with all the modkills going down, so might be that he needed a scapegoat to hide behind, and Omtose's was conveniently placed for just that purpose. Then again... he did start this dodging before we got the lynch result, I think (more quotage & time stamps needed - 1164 however is an indication). Did he know there would be no scum CF prior to the lynch?

Rhetorical question, because as scum, yes, he would have known.

With D'riss coming up inno, well, I have seen enough, personally. If Shadow is a symp or killer (but dangerous play if he is a killer, cause it would prove the theory to be true in case he was lynched) he had a nice group of people there to push on, while Mockra's replacement or maybe even partner & replacement, whatever suits you concerning set up (I personally believe in paired killers, at the least at the start of the game) sat back outside of that group in relative safety, only having to fear a finder looking in the unusual places, and since going for people like D'riss was more or less justified by day 1 stuff, we would have gone with the flow up to a certain point. So, the question for the symp driving that bus would be: when to stop? We've seen Shadow try and pass on the steering wheel to Omtose.

The above would be symp play by the book, getting his master(s) into the end game. Going against the guard 'because he lives'... eh, what? but after making Omtose responsible for the D'riss lynch, well, he could hardly continue on the path he had been on before, now could he?

Vote Shadow