[Omtose]

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

Omtose, on Apr 28 2009, 06:36 PM, said:

I notice Shadow has been very helpful at summarizing things kind re-iterrating cases and gently pointing fingers at various people. Has anyone looked at him yet though? There may be nothing to this, but I thought we shold start taking a look at some of the less obvious people and I don't think he has been scrutinized very closely up to this point if at all. It's just a thought.

I tend to believe Ano's revea,l his behaviour has been consistent thus far and I think he was initially forced to reveal because of Fener's confusing behaviour. Ano asked him several times for a simple yes or no as to whether he was paired, had Fener just answered him it wouldn't have happened. I don't really get a scummy feeling at all from Ano, he's been good about telling us who he blocked each night as well. I just don't think there's much there, although if a case is presented I will certainly look at it, but for the moment I'm looking elsewhere.

Yes, I thought this might come up soon. It's true, I have been looking everywhere and pointing a lot of fingers. That's really just my style of play, I tend to put all my thoughts out there. It's also partly to do with the fact that I don't really know in which direction to head next. We've lost half the people we started with now so it's getting serious.

Anyhoo, I took a look at Ano's posts, and I have to agree with Omtose, there's nothing particularly scummy out there and his reveal does come off as genuine. He's also been suspicious of Tellan since day 1, perhaps that's something to pursue then?

Okay I'm going to go back to your first defense here when I initially drew attention to you. Initially you clain your behaviour is due to the fact that you don't know which direction to head in next. You actually had a direction and it was pointed right at Ano. Now you claim it's you style of game play and you just happen to have taken it too far. So was the statement that you were lacking a direction to go in just a diversion? Because again you clearly had a direction in mind, as usual though you just weren't willing to commit to it and decided to drop hints instead hoping the rest of us would pick up the case against Ano.

Regarding your thoughts about Ano, it's a pretty big statement to claim he possibly fake revealed at this point and decide to look at him as scum. You don't just do that in a casual finger pointing way or to look at all the possible players because that is a pretty major statement. If you felt strongly enough to bring it up in the first place why did it take nothing more than my saying I thought Ano was inno for you to back down? Why didn't you go back and find the stuff that initially made you suspicious and present a decent case. Or at least argue your point a bit or develop it a bit more. Instead you dropped the hints it would seem hoping to get someone else to start the train on Ano and then back pedaled at the fist sign of discension. That seems pretty scummy to me.

[Ampelas]

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

*another ironic snip*

As I said, a genius plan. But how over-elaborate is this? How many tracks do the evils have to cover, how many fake paths do they have to make here? It simply doesn't happen. The simplest answer is almost always the correct one, and this is by no means simple. It's just way too complex, with too many variables - things that could have gone wrong - for it to be all planned and executed so nicely.

And, if you believe this theory, what then about Fener's claim that Gamelon, his other find, is inno? Does that still hold? Because I believe that Fener was a real finder, I also believe that Gamelon is inno (or, at least, was not a killer, at the time). As I said, there are just too many strands here.

Ah, Occam's Razor. Bullshit. Occam was a medieval fool for whom the simplest answer that fit the facts was either, God did it, or the witch down the street with the mole on her nose did it, burn her. Besides which, this is Mafia, the simplest answer should always be more complex, esp. for scum in a meat n' taters game. They'll intentionally try to make things more complex, and if ANY of them know each other, they can pull it off. The only really important strands are Fener, who the new killer probably wouldn't know was a symp, and whoever the new killer is. Just got called for dinner, I'll respond to this more later.

[Anomandaris]

i am not just trying to slow the lynch down, i want to hear peoples opinions, because if the consensus is 3 killers 2 symps then shadow is for the chops. if its 2 killers 2 symps then we can clear shadow and tellan.

[Ampelas]

Anomandaris, on Apr 28 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

i am not just trying to slow the lynch down, i want to hear peoples opinions, because if the consensus is 3 killers 2 symps then shadow is for the chops. if its 2 killers 2 symps then we can clear shadow and tellan.

I suspect that since it was mentioned in the OP, there are paired killers, and 2+ symps. Thus, one of the symps is now a killer, thus 3 killers, 1+ symps. I think. Now food.

[Shadow]

Omtose, on Apr 28 2009, 10:18 PM, said:

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

Omtose, on Apr 28 2009, 06:36 PM, said:

I notice Shadow has been very helpful at summarizing things kind re-iterrating cases and gently pointing fingers at various people. Has anyone looked at him yet though? There may be nothing to this, but I thought we shold start taking a look at some of the less obvious people and I don't think he has been scrutinized very closely up to this point if at all. It's just a thought.

I tend to believe Ano's revea,l his behaviour has been consistent thus far and I think he was initially forced to reveal because of Fener's confusing behaviour. Ano asked him several times for a simple yes or no as to whether he was paired, had Fener just answered him it wouldn't have happened. I don't really get a scummy feeling at all from Ano, he's been good about telling us who he blocked each night as well. I just don't think there's much there, although if a case is presented I will certainly look at it, but for the moment I'm looking elsewhere.

Yes, I thought this might come up soon. It's true, I have been looking everywhere and pointing a lot of fingers. That's really just my style of play, I tend to put all my thoughts out there. It's also partly to do with the fact that I don't really know in which direction to head next. We've lost half the people we started with now so it's getting serious.

Anyhoo, I took a look at Ano's posts, and I have to agree with Omtose, there's nothing particularly scummy out there and his reveal does come off as genuine. He's also been suspicious of Tellan since day 1, perhaps that's something to pursue then?

Okay I'm going to go back to your first defense here when I initially drew attention to you. Initially you clain your behaviour is due to the fact that you don't know which direction to head in next. You actually had a direction and it was pointed right at Ano. Now you claim it's you style of game play and you just happen to have taken it too far. So was the statement that you were lacking a direction to go in just a diversion? Because again you clearly had a direction in mind, as usual though you just weren't willing to commit to it and decided to drop hints instead hoping the rest of us would pick up the case against Ano.

Regarding your thoughts about Ano, it's a pretty big statement to claim he possibly fake revealed at this point and decide to look at him as scum. You don't just do that in a casual finger pointing way or to look at all the possible players because that is a pretty major statement. If you felt strongly enough to bring it up in the first place why did it take nothing more than my saying I thought Ano was inno for you to back down? Why didn't you go back and find the stuff that initially made you suspicious and present a decent case. Or at least argue your point a bit or develop it a bit more. Instead you dropped the hints it would seem hoping to get someone else to start the train on Ano and then back pedaled at the fist sign of discension. That seems pretty scummy to me.

But Ano was just the latest person I was looking at, after Telas, Ruse, Tennes, Ampelas, Korlat, Barghast, D'riss....can't even remember who else. That is lacking direction. I looked at Ano because I was surprised - and I wasn't the only one - that he hadn't been killed during the night. And no, Omtose, it was not your statement that made me back down over Ano. I had gone and looked over all his posts and interactions and couldn't come up with anything from it. His reveal, especially, came across as genuine in its detail. When you posted that, I was actually glad you had, because it meant that someone had come to the same conclusion as me.

If I was scum, why would I have suddenly brought up a suggestion against the person who is most PI in everyone's eyes? There are plenty of other targets who would have been easier to go after, and Ano could have been left well enough alone.

[Omtose]

This info from Ano changes things a bit, I was typing my response to Shadow's defense when Ano posted. We need to really consider whether we think there are two killers here or three. If we think there are only two my inclination is to look at Gamelon, if we are wrong about that and there are three we can always push as far as Shadow is concerned and elliminate him after Gamelon. If Ano is right though that changes part of my reasoning behind the Shadow case, and Shadow can't be the killer due to the blocks.

Edit for correction

This post has been edited by Omtose: 28 April 2009 - 09:34 PM

[Shadow]

As I said, the main reason I've been mentioning so many, going back over their posts, pointing out what they've been saying, is because I wanted to keep everyone in our radar. Too many in previous games have managed to go a long long time without getting noticed, because they weren't in a particular circle. I didn't want that to happen.

I don't know how many others on here can say that they do have direction. Only when someone goes to the effort of trying to make a case, for better or worse, and then the majority just follow that. That's not direction, that's waiting for someone else to tell them what to do.

I've been going through posts, trying to find something to make a case off of, and at the same time I continued to inform everyone of what I had been through already, what was out there that I had found, and I was doing this, as I said, to keep everyone in the picture, and also to hopefully help anyone who might see it and then think 'well, hold on, Shadow didn't see it, but perhaps there is something in that little detail there.'

[Shadow]

I have to leave again for an hour or so, but will be back after that.

[Omtose]

I should add this development does not mean I don't think Shadow couldn't still be scum, because if there are three killers as opposed to two he most likely is. I'm keeping my vote where it is and will wait to hear some more discussion on this. I'm going to take a closer look at Gamelon at the moment.

This post has been edited by Omtose: 28 April 2009 - 09:46 PM

[Anomandaris]

@shadow - a comment about the possible distribution of evil would be useful.

i am going to bed, we have loads of time, lets hear from everyone. If fener was telling the truth and still has a partner out there if you look at your list and finds and match them against my guards, work out the maths for how many are left and possibly reveal if we have the numbers necessary.

as far as i can tell we have removed 3 scum, mockra defo scum. meanas defo symp. either fener or kess as both couldnt be finders as that would make three finders (fener claimed partner.) if people think 2 killers 2 symps we have a solo killer left and thats it. If people think 3 killers 2 symps, or 2 killers 3 symps we still have 2 scum but still have a massive numbers advantage and really have to work hard to lose this.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 6. 18 hours and 19 minutes remaining

12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Korlat, Omtose, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night

3 votes for Shadow: ( Gamelon, Omtose, Ampelas)

Players not voted: Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Korlat, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

[Shadow]

Anomandaris, on Apr 28 2009, 10:46 PM, said:

@shadow - a comment about the possible distribution of evil would be useful.

as far as i can tell we have removed 3 scum, mockra defo scum. meanas defo symp. either fener or kess as both couldnt be finders as that would make three finders (fener claimed partner.) if people think 2 killers 2 symps we have a solo killer left and thats it. If people think 3 killers 2 symps, or 2 killers 3 symps we still have 2 scum but still have a massive numbers advantage and really have to work hard to lose this.

Very well, my thoughts:

Mockra - killer
Meanas - symp
Kesso - symp

I think team evil fucked up when they killed Kesso. He was a symp trying to get a run at becoming killer and being PIed at the same time.

Now, if the above is accurate, it cannot have started with 2 killers, 2 symps. This is because Meanas would have become a killer on Mockra's death (Kessobahn, the other symp, already being dead). But Meanas was CFed inno, meaning she remained a symp.

That means, presumably, there were more symps to begin with than killers. Another symp, not Meanas and not Kesso, became a killer. We can't be sure how many killers we started off with, but I think we can be reasonably sure, from the above, that there were more symps than killers to begin with.

So: Can't be 1 killer, 2 symps, because on Mockra and Kesso's death, Meanas would have become killer, but didn't.
Can't be 2 killers, 2 symps, because of what was outlined above.

Could be 1 killer, 3 symps. In this model, that would mean there is only one killer and no symps left.

Do people think we could have started off with more than four evils?

2 killers, 3 symps (meaning now remaining 2 killers, 1 symp), or 1 killer 4 symps (meaning now remaining 1 killer, 2 symps)?

I don't think we would have started off with more than two killers, but it could be an outside chance.

Edit: changed 'clear' to 'killer' - tard episode.

This post has been edited by Shadow: 28 April 2009 - 10:38 PM

[Ampelas]

Shadow, I've always thought there were at least 4 scum, no less. Dinner took longer than I expected so I have to leave again in a few minutes, but if anybody has a question for me before I go I can answer it.

[Shadow]

@ Amp

And do you think there could have been more than four to begin with?

Edit: By 'scum', do you mean just killers, or killers and symps?

This post has been edited by Shadow: 28 April 2009 - 11:06 PM

[Ampelas]

Shadow, on Apr 28 2009, 07:05 PM, said:

@ Amp

And do you think there could have been more than four to begin with?

Edit: By 'scum', do you mean just killers, or killers and symps?

Yes I think there could be up to 6 killers + symps. I suspect we started with either one or one pair of killers. and now, me and my big honkin sword are off to win a competition. Wish me luck.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 6. 17 hours and 7 minutes remaining

12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Korlat, Omtose, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night

3 votes for Shadow: ( Gamelon, Omtose, Ampelas)

Players not voted: Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Korlat, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

[Path-Shaper]

Just so everyone is clear on something, I just verified that there are no evil gaurds. I did this because its a tmdi 2. So If I din't list it as evil, then its not evil. Where this a higher tmdi, then that info would be kept to myself and spoilers. I don't expect anyone who is or was evil to like it, but oh well.

One more thing to note - send any and all complaints to peanutbutta's regular account. I repeat, do not send complaints to me - I wont respond or argue.

~Bent

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 6. 15 hours and 51 minutes remaining

12 Players still alive: Ampelas, Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Gamelon, Korlat, Omtose, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night

3 votes for Shadow: ( Gamelon, Omtose, Ampelas)

Players not voted: Anomandaris, Emurlahn, Korlat, Ruse, Serc, Shadow, Telas, Tellan, Tennes

[Ruse]

Here. I finally got through most of that, I will probably need to skim it again to absorb all of it. Ano can you confirm you guarded Tellan last night?

Edit- also can you confirm you have 1 paired guard action?

This post has been edited by Ruse: 29 April 2009 - 01:20 AM

[Ruse]

Ugh. Nobody is around. I'm going to take a shower and consolidate my thoughts on the situation. The first thing that jumped out at me in Shadow's post is I'm pretty sure Kesso wasn't a scum symp. He read as paired inno.