Macros, on 21 July 2026 - 07:13 PM, said:
Screw the cinema, someone hand me the popcorn!
QT will have to wait his turn... but first: you! (Oh no!)
Macros, on 20 July 2026 - 07:36 PM, said:
My 2 pence.
Homer probably wasn't a person as we understand writing The Illiad or Oddyssey (people have this vision of shakespear in a toga, it just wasn't), so the meaning is likely well marred from what its original author(s) between a totally different culture and attitudes now, coupled with most likely disparate creators, the mangling of oral traditions, possible mis transcribings and then translations well after the fact that simply could not be 100% accurate of a spoken tale that the translator never heard let alone account for how rapidly language can change over a few hundred years.
So arguing about the true meaning is like pissing into the wind, the true meaning? the true meaning that you took from it from a translation done a few hundred years ago by someone so far removed from events (the very loose real events that inspired the myth) they have no frame of reference beyond their OWN moral values and feelings.
Short version, its a film based on a story made up 2500 years ago.
Some ancient authors speculated that the Iliad and the Odyssey may have been composed by two different poets, but there's no known record of anyone even speculating that the Odyssey was composed by multiple poets, or that Homer wasn't actually a person, until the 17th century. (Though there were some ancient claims that it existed as separate fragments with no established order before the Athenian ruler Pesistratus ordered their collection into the present canonical arrangement.)
It's a plausible and appealing theory, but the evidence for it is very tenuous.
One influential argument in its favor came from an ethnographic study of a living oral tradition in Yugoslavia in the 1930's. They suggested that since the Yugoslav performers typically improvised substantial variations on the traditional stories and wordings that other oral traditions, including the Homeric tradition, would be the same way. But later ethnographic work demonstrated that other living oral traditions actually do strive not to alter the words. While it is well attested in Attic Greek that Athenian performers of Homer would vary which parts they performed, they didn't aim to alter the words.
Another argument for multiple authors is the presence of archaic language from multiple time periods, including some with apparent Minoan origins. But it's common in many cultures for poetry and song, especially with sacred or mythic content, to retain archaic words and words derived from ancient languages.
This seems to be an accurate summary of current scholarly opinion:
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Scholars dispute how The Odyssey was composed, but some think it was through an iterative process that involved various bards putting their own swag on their performances, until the story was eventually compiled and written down. Others believe that the poem's coherent structure points to a single author—the allegedly, perhaps not literally blind poet Homer—though we have no assurances that such a man ever lived.
https://www.vanityfa...nges-from-homer
(Of course, earlier versions of many of the stories and some of the epithets probably predate Homer's poem, if he existed. This is a bit like pointing out that most of Shakespeare's narratives were partly based on previous versions by other authors.)
But the ancient canonical text of the Odyssey---the same text that we have today, and the only known surviving version in the Homeric dialect---was massively influential through the course of ancient Greek and Roman culture (it would be largely fair to say that as Shakespeare is to English literature, Homer is to ancient Greek), and also very influential through much of European cultural history. For centuries studying classical texts was a fundamental part of education at Oxford and other universities, and the Odyssey was one of the most foundational texts. Classical sources were used as inspiration and justification for major political and ideological movements. And the Iliad and the Odyssey were especially influential.
I generally love radical new adaptations of classic texts. The problem with Nolan's version is that he's radically altering it while simultaneously framing his version as a largely accurate representation of the classic, which is misinforming people about what the classic text is actually like and what it's about. Call it "Christopher Nolan's Odyssey"---and maybe include something at the beginning to make it clear that it's not meant to be an accurate adaptation---and I'd be perfectly fine with it.
Cause, on 20 July 2026 - 08:09 PM, said:
My favorite example is that in the Iliad and odyssey Homer uses descriptions such as describing the ocean as wine dark. That makes no sense to our modern earns because the colors don't match but back then they didn't describe or talk about color the same way we do today.
My personal favorite is the violet sheep---technically, violet-dark (ἰοδνεφὲς) wool (on the cyclops Polyphemus's rams):
ἄρσενες ὄιες ἦσαν ἐυτρεφέες, δασύμαλλοι,
καλοί τε μεγάλοι τε, ἰοδνεφὲς εἶρος ἔχοντες:
Word-for-word literal translation:
Masculine rams were well-fed, thick-fleeced,
Beautiful too, big too, violet-dark wool bearing
(lines 425-426)
https://www.perseus....D9%3Acard%3D409
(In this context a better translation of "καλοί" might be "shapely" or "fine" rather than "beautiful"... but "beautiful" amuses me more. (And reminds me of classics professor and brilliant contemporary poet Anne Carson's book The Beauty of the Husband.) Then again "lovely" also works, but the ancient Greek lacks the "love" association... and it might be going a little too far in the "Homer wanted to get gang-banged by lovely violet rams" direction. Now that would be a different sort of film...)
(Incidentally, the English word "iodine" is also ultimately derived from the ancient Greek for violet, via the French word "iode", which was coined in 1812 directly from the ancient Greek.)
It's worth noting that the "wine-dark sea" translation is based on the theory that many of these Homeric references are actually referring not to color but to relative brightness or darkness. The word ἰοδνεφὲς clearly includes this in the etymology: ἰο- refers to the flower (the violet, ἴον), and -νεφὲς comes from δνόφος, darkness.
But the word often translated as "wine-dark" is οἶνοψ, from οἶνος (wine) + ὄψ (eye, face, appearance). So scholars have speculated that a more literal rendering might be "wine-looking sea" or "wine-faced sea"; and some have interpreted that as implying that the sea looks drunken (... possible inspiration for Rimbaud's Le Bateau Ivre (The Drunken Boat)?)
There is also this interesting perspective from a modern Greek speaker:
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as a native Greek speaker I have never gotten the issue with the expression. It's poetic and to me has an obvious and apt evocative meaning. The sea looks like wine - and if you have seen the Aegean it does: it has that same translucent depth of shining colour.
'Wine-dark' was always a poetic mistranslation. There is nothing in there about darkness. There is also nothing about the words that suggests that the sea is similar to wine in terms of colour, as opposed to any other property (wine famously comes in two basic colours anyway, so why is the assumption always that it has to be red?).
https://www.reddit.c...nt=share_button
(Of course if it were white wine then it wouldn't be dark.)
Then again, the only other entities Homer refers to as οἶνοψ are... oxen. (Drunken oxen rampaging? Or maybe lolling about, wine-faced... but I don't think oxen are luminously glittery like the sea? Except maybe twilight vampire oxen. Perhaps "wine-dark" it is then.)
So yeah, Cause is very right that some words meant very different things in Homer's time(s). And (getting back to the movie) "Hospitality" is one of them.
Once more unto the breach!
QuickTidal, on 21 July 2026 - 12:14 PM, said:
I'm REALLY getting tired of you putting words in my mouth you got from your overlord ChatGTP man.
I welcome your clarifications (as I wrote before). Thank you. And no, I don't have ChatGPT write any parts of my posts, though I have considered asking it to edit my responses to you in particular QT to make them more "tactful"; you'd probably like it better if I did. Maybe even optimize its responses just for you.
Perhaps I should have mentioned before that I honestly liked a lot of your initial post, particularly insofar as it's describing the movie rather than the poem. Especially this part:
QuickTidal, on 21 July 2026 - 12:14 PM, said:
the film doesn't suggest that The Trojan Horse violates Zeus's Law nor did I. I suggested that the horse and its idea and what came after gave Odysseus PTSD...I then said that COUPLED with the Zeus's law violations made up the message of the story.
Thank you for clarifying what you meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did see several reviews which claimed that the movie depicted the Trojan horse as a violation of "Zeus's law". (And no they weren't horrible racist sources, as you alleged with no apparent justification (other than vengeance!...).) For example:
https://www.motionpi...ithin-its-hero/
In the poem, Odysseus does cry when a singer retells the story of the sack of Troy. Other than that, there's no evidence in the poem of him having anything resembling PTSD or being wracked with guilt over it. Making that central to the movie is a radical reinterpretation of the poem. Which would be great---it's a brilliant way to modernize it---but it's not the central message of the poem.
QuickTidal, on 21 July 2026 - 12:14 PM, said:
Azath Vitr (D, on 20 July 2026 - 08:06 PM, said:
Sure, xenia was a thing, but it's not what you're describing in your spoiler. And it wasn't called "Zeus's Law". Epithets are important in Homer. Even if the movie had correctly been describing xenia, completely making up an epithet with no counterpart in the poem would be irritating. Especially when people come away from the movie thinking "Zeus's Law" is a term in the study of ancient Greek religion or art.
That IS what I was describing.
I said:
Quote
that of Zeus's Law and the film is about the realization of inhumanity and how left to their own devices Circe was right, Men will do and be terrible things and forget Zeus's Law when it's convenient for them.
Xenia: In ancient Greek culture, one of the most sacred moral obligations was xenia—the law of hospitality. This concept, often called "Zeus's law," was rooted in the belief that Zeus himself, as Zeus Xenios, was the divine protector of guests and strangers. To the Greeks, hospitality was not merely a social courtesy but a sacred duty. A host was expected to welcome travelers, offer food, shelter, and protection, and only afterward inquire about their identity or purpose. Likewise, guests were expected to be respectful and not abuse their host's generosity. Violating xenia was considered an offense not only against one's fellow man but against Zeus himself.
So yeah it was what I was describing.
Oh, QT... the source of that quote is "GotQuestions.org, the flagship website of Got Questions Ministries, a network of sites with a shared mission: to glorify God and reach people for Christ". Not a reliable source. And Google's "About the source" indicates that it was recently updated, possibly because of the film's use of "Zeus's law".
https://www.gotquest...-Law-xenia.html
https://www.gotquest....org/about.html
If xenia were in fact often called "Zeus's law" in ancient Greek then that would almost certainly be mentioned on the Wikipedia page, along with a valid citation for verification. It is not.
https://en.wikipedia...ki/Xenia_(Greek)
Here's what a couple of classics professors who specialize in Homer had to say about it:
Quote
I decided to reach out to a couple of experts, classics professors with extensive insight into Homer's world.
Via email, I asked them both if Zeus's law was a real term used in Ancient Greece.
"In short, no—there was no conception of a 'Zeus's law' in the sense that Nolan seems to present it, i.e. as a version of Jesus's 'Golden Rule,'" explains Jim Crozier, a professor and director of undergraduate studies in the department of classics, archaeology, and religion at the University of Missouri.
Suzanne Lye, a professor in the department of classics at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, agrees. "'Zeus's law' isn't a thing," she says.
https://www.elle.com...-law-explained/
And here's what Christopher Nolan himself said about it:
Quote
[Interviewer:]
Watching the movie, I thought a lot about the classical origins of hospitality, or "Zeus's Law" in the story, and how it functions in our current, divided era.
NOLAN The greatness of the poem is such that you approach these things as if they're foreign and ancient, then as you explore them, they suddenly become stunningly relevant. Zeus's law, it's the Golden Rule — treat as you would be treated — and with a theological underpinning in their world, that you might be a god in disguise.
https://www.nytimes....pher-nolan.html
But as the classics professor said, xenia is *not* the golden rule, and is not what the movie makes it out to be.
Here's an apparent example where the movie radically misrepresents xenia and "Zeus's Law" as presented in the poem:
Quote
Zeus's Law obligates Telemachus and Odysseus's wife Penelope to host the suitors who hope to marry her in Odysseus's absence. But crucially, xenia is also a code that mandates behavior on the receiving end of hospitality. Just as a host shouldn't cannibalize their guests, guests shouldn't overstay their welcome—which is exactly what the suitors courting Penelope do. Murder might seem like a harsh punishment for being a greedy guest, but in the poem, Zeus and Athena support and divinely assist Odysseus's plan to massacre Penelope's arrogant suitors. We don't overtly see this in the film, though, which contains no celestial scenes of the gods colluding for or against their human subjects.
https://www.vanityfa...nges-from-homer
In the movie, this seems to be treated as a *violation* of "Zeus's law", when in the poem it is actually motivated *by* xenia (or more precisely by righteous punishment for its violation), at the direct behest of Zeus himself:
μνηστῆρσιν δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἄχος γένετο μέγα, πᾶσι δ᾽ ἄρα χρὼς
ἐτράπετο: Ζεὺς δὲ μεγάλ᾽ ἔκτυπε σήματα φαίνων:
γήθησέν τ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἔπειτα πολύτλας δῖος Ὀδυσσεύς.
ὅττι ῥά οἱ τέρας ἧκε Κρόνου πάϊς ἀγκυλομήτεω:
εἵλετο δ᾽ ὠκὺν ὀϊστόν, ὅ οἱ παρέκειτο τραπέζῃ
"upon the wooers came great grief, and the faces of them changed color, and Zeus thundered loud, shewing forth his signs. Then glad at heart was the much-enduring, goodly Odysseus that the son of crooked-counselling Cronos sent him an omen, and he took up a swift arrow" ... and then he starts murdering them all.
This is what you wrote QT:
Quote
So take that and combine it with the key message in the Odyssey as a poem, that of Zeus's Law and the film is about the realization of inhumanity and how left to their own devices Circe was right, Men will do and be terrible things and forget Zeus's Law when it's convenient for them. Which is a message that resonates today with what's happening in the USA...humanity is being left behind to focus on wants and desires and not life.
Now I agree with you about the USA. But what upset me is that you seem to have come away from the movie thinking that its misrepresentation of xenia as "Zeus's Law" is "the key message in the Odyssey as a poem". Your post is exhibit A in the case against Christopher Nolan.
Bear in mind that I'm not blaming you for this QT. You are the victim of Christopher Nolan's perfidy. And of his epic hubris.
(Yes my bombast there is tongue-in-cheek...)
As for all the personal attacks you launched at me, QT... did I ever mention that when I was a child I aspired to do for the art of the internet flame war what Dante did for the Italian language? When people try to flame me, it's like a spark tickling Satan. While I could wittily immolate you, and that might be entertaining, I feel like it would be counterproductive. And we're really not supposed to flame each other here. Which isn't exactly the law of hospitality or the golden rule, but perhaps not so far off from either of them.
This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 22 July 2026 - 03:26 PM
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