[Illuyankas]

Possibly too much for me, anyway. If he does become a Loki-analogue that might be at the least entertaining.

[globish rip]

Meh, I think he should die. But I won't be too terribly upset if he doesn't, or if he gets resurrected somehow.

I think the most likely scenario is that Rand will die, and not be resurrected, but he'll get called by the Horn after he dies. That way, everyone has to fight the Last Battle for at least a good while knowing that their only hope of salvation is dead. And Mat gets to ride in and save the day. And all the prophecies are fulfilled - Rand goes on "living" in Tel'aran'rhiod because Birgitte says that Heroes are not dead as other people are dead. Twice dawns the day, Shadow at noon, all that good stuff.[/i]

i had totally convinced myself i was cool w/ any outcome as long as it was well done but this is pretty terrible - it splits the difference btw rand living and dying in a way that doesnt give the satisfaction of either. and isnt mat no longer tied to the horn i thought he'd died and severed that connection.

oh well the wheel turns &c

This post has been edited by eng lng rip: 26 June 2009 - 06:03 AM

[Terez]

eng lng rip, on Jun 26 2009, 01:03 AM, said:

i had totally convinced myself i was cool w/ any outcome as long as it was well done but this is pretty terrible - it splits the difference btw rand living and dying in a way that doesnt give the satisfaction of either.

What makes you say that? He dies, and becomes one of the dead Heroes. Because he sacrificed his life, it becomes possible to seal up the Dark One (parallel to Christianity). He is "resurrected", maybe not three days later (probably on the same day, judging by the prophecies) by the Horn (it seems to have been made for an important purpose, after all), and then he goes back to being dead, like he should be. Rand exits the already-complicated political picture of Randland, hangs out in Tel'aran'rhiod like a dead Hero should, but "yet lives" there so he can get conjugal visits. What more could you want? And a long line of Seanchan empresses/emperors will inherit Mat's medallion.

eng said:

and isnt mat no longer tied to the horn i thought he'd died and severed that connection.

Nah, everything was balefired back to a point before he was killed, so that technically didn't happen.

[Terez]

Okay, sorry, I admit I've been lazy. Here are some more quotes:

RJ said:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

RJ said:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh

"They have shared dreams, some of which concern you." She sounded slightly strangled until she paused to clear her throat, then fixed him with a steady, determined gaze. "Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat," she said, the word still awkward after all these months in the wetlands, "with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword." For an instant her eyes darted contemptuously to the scabbarded blade lying atop the Dragon Scepter. Contemptuously, and a bit guiltily. She had given him that, once the property of King Laman, carefully wrapped in a blanket so she could not be said to have actually touched it. "They cannot interpret the dreams, but they thought you should know."

Min also had a viewing of three women on a funeral bier, but no other detail is given other than that Rand is the dead guy and the identity of the three women. No clue about the boat, other than maybe the Sea Folk who think everyone should die on the water, and be given to the water in death. But both quotes indicate that all is not decided at the time of Rand's death.

RJ said:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Rand dropped back into his chair, stretching his legs in front of him and crossing his ankles. "It doesn't matter how unpopular it is. I went through that doorframe ter'angreal in Tear, Cadsuane. You know about that?" Golden ornaments bobbled as she nodded impatiently. "One of my questions for the Aelfinn was 'How can I win the Last Battle?'"

"A dangerous question to pose." she said quietly, "touching on the Shadow as it does. Supposedly, the results can be quite unpleasant. What was the answer?"

" 'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'" He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been 'To live, you must die.' Not something he was going to bring up in front of Min anytime soon. In front of anyone except Alivia, for that matter. Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying. "At first, I thought it meant I had to conquer everywhere, but that wasn't what they said. What if it means the Seanchan hold the west and south, as you could say they already do, and there's an alliance to fight the Last Battle, the Seanchan with everybody else?"

It may seem unfair to those who think Rand should live, but this is exactly the sort of thing the 'Finns could get away with, probably, for Rand 1) asking a trick double question, 2) asking a question that demands something other than his fate, and 3) asking a question that touches the Shadow. Don't you think?

Back to the Jesus references...Rand has been in hiding since the Far Madding debacle, and it's something like a Garden of Gethsemane reference, I think. Also, when Jesus died, he still lived (after he was resurrected), but not on earth - he only appeared to his disciples for a brief time as an immortal. He supposedly didn't have any wives, but all this father son and holy spirit stuff makes him technically three different people in one, so having three wives makes sense.

[globish rip]

well it feels out of step w/ the general tone and theme of the series which ive always thought was about making choices and a person's ability to do so vs. fate or w/e - having rand tied to the horn, completely bound feels like a cheat i guess it avoids the difficulties of him living as u point out w/o the trauma or loss of him dying "for real".

also hes the dragon - conceptually its weird to me for him to be bound to the horn as well as the wheel/age lace. not going to argue with u over the world's mechanics i really cant remember that much about it, just feels off

the horn is a big ? its what verin disappears to go get in the middle of kod right and its been hanging around since the eye BUT idk having rand die and then get summoned via the horn would drain so much of the tension from the series - its too pat and it carries too little "cost"

i can see it happening tho so i guess i should get accustomed

[Terez]

eng lng rip, on Jun 26 2009, 01:35 AM, said:

well it feels out of step w/ the general tone and theme of the series which ive always thought was about making choices and a person's ability to do so vs. fate or w/e - having rand tied to the horn, completely bound feels like a cheat i guess it avoids the difficulties of him living as u point out w/o the trauma or loss of him dying "for real".

Well, that's just how it is. If he dies, he's going to be a Hero still. We have known that since book 2. The Creator can't interfere, but the Heroes are the Wheel's corrective mechanisms, and even Herid Fel said that he didn't think that the Dragon Reborn could make the prison whole, just like the Creator made it in the paradoxical first place (otherwise the whole Wheel philosophy goes out the window).

eng said:

also hes the dragon - conceptually its weird to me for him to be bound to the horn as well as the wheel/age lace. not going to argue with u over the world's mechanics i really cant remember that much about it, just feels off

Well, here's another quote:

RJ said:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave is No Bar to My Call

"It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn." Artur Hawkwing's voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.

"Or a woman," Birgitte said sharply.

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed. "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

Rand shook his head, but he would not waste time with denials. "Invaders have come, men who call themselves Seanchan, who use chained Aes Sedai in battle. They must be driven back into the sea. And – and there is a girl. Egwene al'Vere. A novice from the White Tower. The Seanchan have her prisoner. You must help me free her."

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin." It had a fond sound, as between old friends.

"My name is Rand al'Thor," he snapped. "You have to hurry. There isn't much time."

"Time?" Birgitte said, smiling. "We have all of time." Gaidal Cain dropped his reins and, guiding his horse with his knees, drew a sword in either hand. All along the small band of heroes there was an unsheathing of swords, an unlimbering of bows, a hefting of spears and axes.

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you." His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him.

"Yes." Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

If you'll notice, Rand is the one that gave the Heroes their instructions, even though Mat blew the Horn. At the end there, Hawkwing essentially says that it didn't matter who blew the Horn, or what side they were on - since Rand was there, and the Dragon Banner, they had no choice but to follow him.

Someone asked RJ what would happen if Rand was on the other side of the field from whoever blew the Horn:

RJ said:

The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles - Pam Basham reporting

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?


RJ: Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it. However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the Horn "controls the Heroes."

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." (I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.)

Also, Hawkwing pretty much says outright that Rand is one of them, and it seems obvious, from the importance of Rand's and Lews Therin's incarnate roles compared to Hawkwing's incarnate role means that Hawkwing probably only leads the Heroes when Rand isn't dead.

eng said:

the horn is a big ? its what verin disappears to go get in the middle of kod right and its been hanging around since the eye BUT idk having rand die and then get summoned via the horn would drain so much of the tension from the series - its too pat and it carries too little "cost"

Who said there would be no cost? The whole Shadow at noon thing seems to imply a pretty heavy cost, as the forces of the dark are stacked to do some serious damage before the game is over, and the forces of the light will be fighting what appears to be a lost cause.

Also, as Rand and Lews Therin have noted several times...they have suffered enough. Rand beats himself up over Lews Therin's crimes and his own (including several imagined crimes). Rand hates being notorious, and the only thing that's kept him from offing himself is his harem.

eng said:

i can see it happening tho so i guess i should get accustomed

I keep trying to tell myself this about the body swap theory.

[HoosierDaddy]

Who killed Asmodean?

RAFO? More like read and f*** off......

[Terez]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 26 2009, 02:06 AM, said:

Who killed Asmodean?

RAFO? More like read and f*** off......

I made a RAFO section for my interview database. I didn't keep a collection of all the RAFO answers...not even close (so many of them were stupid meaning Asmodean and got cut)...but I kept a collections of the quotes about RAFO.

[HoosierDaddy]

LOL, Terez you made google page of RAFO!!!! My 2001 HERO!

I just remember reading interview after interview of: RAFO. It got so damned annoying.

[Terez]

It wasn't RJ's fault - the stupid fans should have known for the most part that those questions wouldn't have been answered. And for the most part, it's not the hard core fans asking the RAFO questions - it's random people at booksignings. The hard core fans are hanging out by the table with a tape recorder, recording every dumb fuck who comes up there with a dumbass question.

[HoosierDaddy]

Terez: Nerd Bouncer.




But, in reality... did he need to say RAFO a billion times? No, he could have just said "We'll see" or other answers that didn't imply a definitive canon answer.

[Terez]

He was fond of saying it. Harriet claims he said it once when she asked him what he wanted for dinner.

[HoosierDaddy]

Terez, on Jun 26 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

He was fond of saying it. Harriet claims he said it once when she asked him what he wanted for dinner.

That statement leads to so many disgusting things I'll just let it lie. If he actually did say it randomly that's really funny. Funnier than I would give him credit for. Well done, RJ.

[Terez]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 26 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

Terez, on Jun 26 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

He was fond of saying it. Harriet claims he said it once when she asked him what he wanted for dinner.

That statement leads to so many disgusting things I'll just let it lie. If he actually did say it randomly that's really funny. Funnier than I would give him credit for. Well done, RJ.

RJ's sense of humor can be subdued, and it can be old-fashioned, but he is a funny guy. I think Nynaeve's justifications alone have had my sides hurting before.

[globish rip]

Who said there would be no cost? The whole Shadow at noon thing seems to imply a pretty heavy cost, as the forces of the dark are stacked to do some serious damage before the game is over, and the forces of the light will be fighting what appears to be a lost cause.

1 million dead trollocs are just a statistic u know how it goes

i meant cost 2 rand and the reader for rand its just like w/e im chilling all ghost like pain cant touch me *bloaw* like a .44 desert eagle soooo cheap for the reader its like wow a ghost came and won the last battle thats cool... NOT.

wheel weaves tho its all good.

i thought graendal killed asmodean wasnt that done w/

[Terez]

<-- doesn't care who killed Asmodean, but BS said it was Bela. He also said it was Narg, I think.

[Cougar]

Terez, on Jun 26 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

RJ's sense of humor can be subdued, and it can be old-fashioned, but he is a funny guy. I think Nynaeve's justifications alone have had my sides hurting before.

Christ, I doubt I ever even chuckled during all 13 books.

[Terez]

Cougar, on Jun 26 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

Terez, on Jun 26 2009, 08:40 AM, said:

RJ's sense of humor can be subdued, and it can be old-fashioned, but he is a funny guy. I think Nynaeve's justifications alone have had my sides hurting before.

Christ, I doubt I ever even chuckled during all 13 books.

Poor you. Are you counting the BWB? Because the section in the middle of that one that has all the cover art and is entitled "Some Narrative Paintings of Questionable Authenticity" definitely made me lmao.

[Cougar]

Oh no, I'm counting New Spring

[HoosierDaddy]

I laugh every time an Aes Sedai sniffs disapprovingly, Nynaeve tugs her braid, and every time Lews Therin asks to die.

It's a non-stop laugh riot...