[Aptorian]

But when we're talking about the likes of Icarium and Mappo. Can they be forced into anything? I believe that Icarium may become a servant of the Matron because she knows something about him. He has to have learned the machine building trade from somewhere. There has to be a connection.

[Traveller]

Hetan, on Mar 26 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

Willing participant? How many times have we seen people chosen for a role unwillingly? Heboric, Gruntle, Toc and now Kalyth, to name a few.
It seems to be the other way round - that it's rare for anyone to choose - they're just.... taken.

Those that have been chosen 'unwillingly' were chosen because they were basically already fulfilling the role.. Gruntle, Heboric - they were picked because they were already in some way carrying out the role required.

I don't think the KC could recruit anyone that didn't already have something against the enemies of the KC, whoever they may be. Karsa was chosen, even prepared for a role by a God, but he managed to reject it as it conflicted with his own interests.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 26 March 2009 - 09:44 AM

[Urizen]

kcf, on Mar 26 2009, 12:19 AM, said:

Of course the Awl'dan is to the west/northwest of the Wastelands as shown in RG. Bolkando was never mentioned in the prologues, so I'm not sure how it lines up with these.

The reason I asked was because on the map from RG we have Awl'dan, Ak'ryn and D'rhasilani fronting up to the eastern border of Lether and to the east/southeast of those three,there are the kingdoms of Bolkando and Saphinand. Are the Wastelands further east?

[Traveller]

I would guess so.. Redmask went that way, and came back with 2 KC.

[Sindriss]

Yeah mortals are chosen and taken for the role but I think it is something else entirely with entities as Icarium and Mappo. You manipulate them, maybe deceive them but I doubt you can force them to do anything they really don't want to do.

Apt: You may have a point about Ica learning the trade of machines from KCCM, I think we will learn a lot more when we have read the book about that particular relationship.

Crazy theory: Toc lives again and is chosen! That man cannot die !

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I suspect the KCCM's SA and MS will be chosen from the 14th.

So what's with the huge KCCM factory? Are they preparing to wage war, or build up their defenses?

[blackzoid]

In RG, Toc planted the idea that Redmask was the First Sword of the KCCM, NOT the Mortal Sword.
First Sword's were champions of races/empires.
Mortal Swords are aspected to a particular god/ascendent/realm.

Whats interesting is that this prologue shows that the Matron was indeed looking for a Mortal Sword as well as a Shield Anvil. Toc got it wrong.
Does she now consider herself a god and wants to be worshipped?
Does the rest of the KCCM hive actually worship her? She does have all the magic of the hive so maybe she is an Ascendent of some sort.

Can't wait for some KCCM/KCNR interaction!
Didn't Silchas Ruin negotiate with the KCNR during their civil war? He should appear in this story at some stage too.

[Traveller]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Mar 26 2009, 10:20 AM, said:

I suspect the KCCM's SA and MS will be chosen from the 14th.

So what's with the huge KCCM factory? Are they preparing to wage war, or build up their defenses?

'No further proof was needed – war was coming'

I somehow don't think it will be as simple as going out an finding someone - it's bound to get more complicated.

Was the battle between the short tails and long tails ever finished? Is this war against other KC?
I'm wondering where the skykeeps in the imperial warren fit in, as they were preparing for war according to QB.

Also, there seem to be more than one 'Rooted' in the prologue - possibly landed keeps?

So many questions..!

This post has been edited by Traveller: 26 March 2009 - 10:59 AM

[Sindriss]

Quote

Does the rest of the KCCM hive actually worship her? She does have all the magic of the hive so maybe she is an Ascendent of some sort.

Well, we have descriptions that the old Matrons had enough magic power to rival the elder gods so they are at least Ascended.

[blackzoid]

Sindriss, on Mar 26 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

Quote

Does the rest of the KCCM hive actually worship her? She does have all the magic of the hive so maybe she is an Ascendent of some sort.

Well, we have descriptions that the old Matrons had enough magic power to rival the elder gods so they are at least Ascended.

Just from rereading the prologue, this was from the KCCM assassin POV

"Her awkward assumption of godly structures of faith ill-fitted both her and all the K'Chain Che'Malle."

Hmm, while pervious Matron's ruled their hives, perhaps they never expected to be worshipped as gods by their KCCM family. Even though they are Ascendent beings. Maybe this one wants to either:
1: Use the power of worship to enpower a Mortal Sword/Shield Anvi/Destriant so that they help out in the war.
2: Create a religion of worship, complete with MS/SH/D so that the worship of her will somehow give her additional magical power so that she can become a "real" god.
3: A combo of the first two.

And where will the KCNR come into this? Are either the KCCM or the KCNR on the Crippled God's side?

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 26 March 2009 - 01:08 PM

[Newbee]

Is it me or arent the bonehunters meant to be on the same continent? Icarium is Oh my so is Tool, Ruin? Looks like theres gona be K'Chain Che'Malle shish kebab with Quick, bottle, fid, parans big sis and the rest of the crew getting a piece. Ofcourse pure speculation they might not even feature, regardless, in Steve we Trust.

This post has been edited by Newbee: 26 March 2009 - 02:09 PM

[Vengeance]

I was thinking about this last night. I am starting to think that the most important thing about the prologue is the bit with Hebric. Lets look at what we have seen so as far as army's go. We have both the Barghast and the Bonehunters on the continent. We have a the last Matron building up here army, we also have a lot of sky keeps in the Imperial warren. And we have an incoming from the crippled Gods realm. I am starting to think that all of the army's are being built to battle the incoming from the CG realm..

[Illuyankas]

Kind of weird how everyone's assuming the rooted are crashed skykeeps - aren't the KCCM allowed to build their own nonflying cities?

[Vengeance]

Illuyankas, on Mar 26 2009, 09:28 AM, said:

Kind of weird how everyone's assuming the rooted are crashed skykeeps - aren't the KCCM allowed to build their own nonflying cities?

Well from what Kallor has said about them I assumed that they had huge cities with giant machines.

[Traveller]

It's because they're called Rooted. If it was just a city, or cave complex in a mountain, why would it be called that? I think the landed skykeep idea comes from that, anyway - something that was mobile, but has now taken root.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 26 March 2009 - 02:34 PM

[Illuyankas]

Traveller, on Mar 26 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

It's because they're called Rooted. If it was just a city, or cave complex in a mountain, why would it be called that? I think the landed skykeep idea comes from that, anyway.

Perhaps because that's how they started off when they went from KCNR to KCCM in the first place, and they kept the tradition?

[blackzoid]

Was it just the KCNR short-tails who made the Skykeeps? Or both?
I thought they were just a KCNR invention.

[Illuyankas]

The KCNR invented them, then became the KCCM.

The current KCNR were made by the KCCM (that is, as far as we know), then civil warring occurred.

[Abyss]

So MUCH malazan DoD prologue goodness!!!!!!

Traveller, on Mar 26 2009, 04:35 AM, said:

Surely whoever is chosen to be Mortal Sword etc for the KC would have to be a willing participant to start with?

Icarium and Mappo, for example would need some convincing.

Redmask was being set up, but he didn't know why they were following him; he was apparently completely in the dark about their motives, which is presumably why the Matron is now sending a human out to help recruit.

(Also, doesn't this new info prove once and for all that Redmask was killed because he failed, as he lost the battle?)

Redmask was a mindwiped nutjob and a failed experiment. He lost his shit, failed at the war with the Leth/Edur, and got his severance (heehee...).

Important point here: the Matron is looking to aspect humans. Not Trell, not Jhag - humans. So Iccy and Mappo are right out.

Hetan, on Mar 26 2009, 05:29 AM, said:

Willing participant? How many times have we seen people chosen for a role unwillingly? Heboric, Gruntle, Toc and now Kalyth, to name a few.
It seems to be the other way round - that it's rare for anyone to choose - they're just.... taken.

Then again, Karanadas, Itkovian, Brukhalian and even Feather Witch (sort of) were all volunteers. It works both ways and i imagine the strength of the link between invested human and god (or ascendent or matron) can be very different depending on the situation.

The Matron's Destriant seems to be another failed experiment, altho it appears the Matron linked to the desperation the human felt at being the last survivor.

Sindriss, on Mar 26 2009, 06:18 AM, said:

...may have a point about Ica learning the trade of machines from KCCM....

Totally.

Ain't_It_Just_, on Mar 26 2009, 06:20 AM, said:

I suspect the KCCM's SA and MS will be chosen from the 14th.

Stormy and Gesler are just sitting there.... waiting...

Quote

So what's with the huge KCCM factory? Are they preparing to wage war, or build up their defenses?

Both, from the hints.

blackzoid, on Mar 26 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

In RG, Toc planted the idea that Redmask was the First Sword of the KCCM, NOT the Mortal Sword.
First Sword's were champions of races/empires.
Mortal Swords are aspected to a particular god/ascendent/realm.

Not quite. ALL those terms, Mortal Sword, First Sword, Champion, Knight, Soldier, Bodyguard, etc etc, are used in various ways by various groups at different times, sometimes to ref the same individual (see Karsa, who is the CG's Mortal sword, and alternately Knight and/or champion of the HoC, AND served a similar role for the Unbound..., or Brys who at various points was supposed to be the the Letherii King's Champion, the Errant's Mortal Sword, Knight of the Empty Hold, Champion of the Tiste races, Guardian of the forgotten gods, AND date Paris Hilton...), Dassem was both First Sword of the ME and Hood's Knight, etc etc.

Quote

Does she now consider herself a god and wants to be worshipped?
Does the rest of the KCCM hive actually worship her? She does have all the magic of the hive so maybe she is an Ascendent of some sort.

Can't wait for some KCCM/KCNR interaction!

I suspect the point is that in order to stave off extinction, the Matron is trying to take on the human version of ascension and godheed. She's already hugely powerful, as Matrons are, but while she's experimenting with aspecting humans to KC, she's actually trying to do the reverse and link the KC to humans.

And this is why SE is awesome. Just writing that blew my mind.

Quote

Didn't Silchas Ruin negotiate with the KCNR during their civil war? He should appear in this story at some stage too.

Agreed. Could be interesting.

Traveller, on Mar 26 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

...

Was the battle between the short tails and long tails ever finished? Is this war against other KC?
I'm wondering where the skykeeps in the imperial warren fit in, as they were preparing for war according to QB.

One possibility for the 'war' is the return of the KN, possibly because of the moon being shattered.

The Sky Keeps in the Impy Warren could be refugee KN, or they could be the Matron's KC army's staging
area.

Quote

Also, there seem to be more than one 'Rooted' in the prologue - possibly landed keeps?

Possible but in RG there were references to cities that were destroyed by dragons. I suspect this is one they missed.

The name 'Ampelas Rooted' is interesting, along with the comment about a crucified dragon... wasn't Ampelas one of the chained dragons Cots chatted with in TB?

Sindriss, on Mar 26 2009, 07:32 AM, said:

Quote

Does the rest of the KCCM hive actually worship her? She does have all the magic of the hive so maybe she is an Ascendent of some sort.

Well, we have descriptions that the old Matrons had enough magic power to rival the elder gods so they are at least Ascended.

I'm not sure we can use the term 'ascended' in the usual sense when it comes to the Matrons. It actually seems that in ivesting humans, the Matron is trying to Ascend in the human sense.

Illuyankas, on Mar 26 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

Kind of weird how everyone's assuming the rooted are crashed skykeeps - aren't the KCCM allowed to build their own nonflying cities?

Yep. See RG, altho we're assuming the cities weren't skykeeps first. But Morn and the Letherii plain Gothos turned into a skating rink are examples of cities, plus the various ruins Kallor refs in MoI.


- Abyss, ....wheeeEEEeeee....

[Monoch Ochem]

Abyss, on Mar 26 2009, 02:55 PM, said:

One possibility for the 'war' is the return of the KN, possibly because of the moon being shattered.

The Sky Keeps in the Impy Warren could be refugee KN, or they could be the Matron's KC army's staging
area.

I'm definitely curious about the Nah'ruk too. I have a suspicion that they are the enemy in question- either them or the Liosan (bone-skinned strangers).