[Drae]

In regards to the Seguleh not having the strength to parry the kell, and how that seems inconsistent:
One thing I would like to point out is there are a number of different actions that can be referred to as "parries". There are different methods of parrying.

If Harlo or Pre-Mortal Sword Gruntle attempted to block parry, as in absorb the blow with their arms, then yes the force could shatter a heavy broad sword or break even a brick shit-houses wrists. This makes sense, as both are reputed to be larger men, more likely to rely on strength then finesse when fighting. Further since gruntle broke both his wrists, I'd say it's very likely he was attempting to absorb the blow; both wrists being broken indicates a relatively balanced parry by both swords, why distribute the load if not to attempt absorb it?

The Seguleh can still parry blows; albeit more of a deflection parry. By deflecting the direction of the attack in order to make it miss, rather then attempting to absorb it, a fighter with less strength can parry hard hitting attacks. The force is simply misdirected; which requires finesse, not strength. Similar to the practice of akido, where the goal is to use the weight and strength of your opponent against him.

I respectfully disagree with that assessment; as it's based on your interpretation of the word parry. Parry can mean a number of different actions or movements, truthfully the definition of parry is:

par·ry   [par-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry·ing, noun,plural -ries.verb (used with object)1.to ward off (a thrust, stroke, weapon, etc.), as in fencing;avert.

It is no way certain that when the seguleh parry, that they are attempting to absorb the blow; it is far more likely in my opinion that the author meant they avert the strike through misdirection. *edited for format.

This post has been edited by Drae: 06 December 2011 - 08:29 PM

[tiam]

 Drae, on 06 December 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

In regards to the Seguleh not having the strength to parry the kell, and how that seems inconsistent:
One thing I would like to point out is there are a number of different actions that can be referred to as "parries". There are different methods of parrying.

If Harlo or Pre-Mortal Sword Gruntle attempted to block parry, as in absorb the blow with their arms, then yes the force could shatter a heavy broad sword or break even a brick shit-houses wrists. This makes sense, as both are reputed to be larger men, more likely to rely on strength then finesse when fighting. Further since gruntle broke both his wrists, I'd say it's very likely he was attempting to absorb the blow; both wrists being broken indicates a relatively balanced parry by both swords, why distribute the load if not to attempt absorb it?

The Seguleh can still parry blows; albeit more of a deflection parry. By deflecting the direction of the attack in order to make it miss, rather then attempting to absorb it, a fighter with less strength can parry hard hitting attacks. The force is simply misdirected; which requires finesse, not strength. Similar to the practice of akido, where the goal is to use the weight and strength of your opponent against him.

I respectfully disagree with that assessment; as it's based on your interpretation of the word parry. Parry can mean a number of different actions or movements, truthfully the definition of parry is:

par·ry   [par-ee] Show IPA verb, -ried, -ry·ing, noun,plural -ries.verb (used with object)1.to ward off (a thrust, stroke, weapon, etc.), as in fencing;avert.

It is no way certain that when the seguleh parry, that they are attempting to absorb the blow; it is far more likely in my opinion that the author meant they avert the strike through misdirection. *edited for format.

How is it then that Tool cannot use his superior strength against Mok? Also how is it that despite the Seguleh fighting style being described as fast but lacking real power that the Seguleh are able to fight the Kell despite it being described as hacking into wood?

I see what your saying I really do and I am now expert of the specifics on swordsmanship. Its just that ever since we see IB description of the Seguleh fighting style I simply didnt think it was consistent.

[Drae]

 tiam, on 06 December 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

...being described as hacking into wood?

Whittling


Truly I would have to read that duel again; admittedly it's been awhile since I read MoI. Is it possible that rather then suddenly suffering from a noodle arm, tool simply cannot bring his strength to bear? Perhaps Mok is simply good / fast enough that it forces tool to adopt a similar style in order to keep up with Mok?

I agree that there seems to be disparity in the relative strength of the seguleh. My OP was simply to indicate that it is entirely possible to deflect very heavy blows without being able to match the strength of your opponent.

To simplify your interpretation of the seguleh fighting style; could you compare it to earthly style? Personally I see their style similar to fighting with a Jian, the chinese straight sword. (reference Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon)

This post has been edited by Drae: 07 December 2011 - 02:05 PM

[Abyss]

Lest we forget, it's implied in MoI that Mok at the very least had some sensitivity to warrens (he tells Envy what's killing Garath when Envy herself has no idea).

Given that and the Tyrant-king link established in TB, we can't ignore the possibility that Seguleh are 'enhanced' to some degree. FFS in RCG during Storo's squad's run at the throne room, Rell stands there while two High Mages try to fry him with Thyr... even an exceptionally skilled 'mere' human would be bacon.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 07 December 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

Lest we forget, it's implied in MoI that Mok at the very least had some sensitivity to warrens (he tells Envy what's killing Garath when Envy herself has no idea).

Given that and the Tyrant-king link established in TB, we can't ignore the possibility that Seguleh are 'enhanced' to some degree. FFS in RCG during Storo's squad's run at the throne room, Rell stands there while two High Mages try to fry him with Thyr... even an exceptionally skilled 'mere' human would be bacon.

He does suffer severe burns. Dont get me wrong its not completely far fetched but I think thats just their discipline rather than any inherent biological advances.

Drae- I do see you point but it just seemed like an inconsistent view to me atleast

[Abyss]

 tiam, on 07 December 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 07 December 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

... in RCG during Storo's squad's run at the throne room, Rell stands there while two High Mages try to fry him with Thyr... even an exceptionally skilled 'mere' human would be bacon.

He does suffer severe burns. Dont get me wrong its not completely far fetched but I think thats just their discipline rather than any inherent biological advances.
...

oh he gets crispy, no doubt, and spends the rest of the book recovering from it.
But a 'mere' human, however well trained, isn't fireproof. He was on the receiving end of two high mages cutting loose ... he should have been ash if there was nothing else going on there.

[amphibian]

 tiam, on 06 December 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

How is it then that Tool cannot use his superior strength against Mok? Also how is it that despite the Seguleh fighting style being described as fast but lacking real power that the Seguleh are able to fight the Kell despite it being described as hacking into wood?

There's always authorial inconsistencies to note, but for a battle between two elite fighters - one much stronger, but slower, the other much faster, but weaker - it depends on who goes on offense. You can only block for so long before something gets through and slices you up. I suspect that Mok got inside Tool's OODA loop by making faster decisions and moving upon them faster than Tool could cope with for the duration of the duel. The rule-less nature of the duel makes it hard for Tool to just stay on the outside and outpoint Mok to a win - he has to make Mok submit or kill him. Having the disadvantage of being slower and having Silverfox weaken his Tellann strength means Mok gets him to make a mistake and then launches his own onslaught.

[tiam]

 Abyss, on 07 December 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

 tiam, on 07 December 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 07 December 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

... in RCG during Storo's squad's run at the throne room, Rell stands there while two High Mages try to fry him with Thyr... even an exceptionally skilled 'mere' human would be bacon.

He does suffer severe burns. Dont get me wrong its not completely far fetched but I think thats just their discipline rather than any inherent biological advances.
...

oh he gets crispy, no doubt, and spends the rest of the book recovering from it.
But a 'mere' human, however well trained, isn't fireproof. He was on the receiving end of two high mages cutting loose ... he should have been ash if there was nothing else going on there.

We can both call super-stamina/super discipline as much as we want. ICE wanted/need him to survive that. I have no doubt that later in the series a few Seguleh will get destroyed by an average practitioner of Telas.

 amphibian, on 07 December 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

 tiam, on 06 December 2011 - 10:28 PM, said:

How is it then that Tool cannot use his superior strength against Mok? Also how is it that despite the Seguleh fighting style being described as fast but lacking real power that the Seguleh are able to fight the Kell despite it being described as hacking into wood?

There's always authorial inconsistencies to note, but for a battle between two elite fighters - one much stronger, but slower, the other much faster, but weaker - it depends on who goes on offense. You can only block for so long before something gets through and slices you up. I suspect that Mok got inside Tool's OODA loop by making faster decisions and moving upon them faster than Tool could cope with for the duration of the duel. The rule-less nature of the duel makes it hard for Tool to just stay on the outside and outpoint Mok to a win - he has to make Mok submit or kill him. Having the disadvantage of being slower and having Silverfox weaken his Tellann strength means Mok gets him to make a mistake and then launches his own onslaught.

Again I do feel its more authorial than plot related but I still feel like its an inconsistency, mainly because were given a (very good IMO) blow by blow account of the fight and how IB deals with it. It just didnt fit aswell as earlier on in the series, to me atleast. I get the feeling that ICE is putting more work into the Seguleh, fleshing them out more as they need to be more fallible in OST, whatever role they play. We have the IB fight analysis and a few references in SW that theyre a tribal warrior society, the kind the Malazans have beaten before.

[Abyss]

I'm going to create a spin-off thread in the TtH forum to avoid posting later book spoilers here.

LINK

[Vaddon Ra]

 L, on 23 March 2009 - 10:03 PM, said:

I am going to jump around a lot here.

I do not think Thurule was anywhere near twentieth. He just had about half as many markings an an initiate of the 11th order? Which is what Senu was and Senu was his brother...not sure if Mok is or is not but that was a pretty vague sentence when the fact that Senu and Therule are brothers is mentioned in MOI.

Rell was in the Top 1000. We know this because he said so, unless of course the top 1000 is not the highest ranking like is said earlier/later in the book.

I think Rell was and could definately hold his own against any other seguleh we have seen until you get to Mok who is far and away the best we have seen..including what little we got of the 2nd in TTH.

I think it is pretty straight forward as far as who can kill what, and that is anyone can be killed by someone of comparible ability. Dassem still fears the arrow in his back. Also I would have to argue against Skinners fight in RotCG with dassem as a clase match. Dassem hits him over and over again and never once gets hit in return. Crippling blow after blow hits Skinners armor until Dassem realized that not even Vengeance can get through it. It would be like Rake hitting Skinner with Dragnipur and the armor not allowing a cut. How suprised would Rake be? Dassem owned Skinner and not even the most enchanted armor we have seen (maybe we havent even seen any others) failed to save Skinner from an obviously superior fighter.

Iron Bars is indeed weakened by his ordeal at sea, plus the hole in his chest and beating he took. As an avowed the wounds are real and only his will to survive allows him to continue. The pain is still there, a broken bone is still useless until healed etc. The duel with the Seguleh also injures him with the cut to the leg and the neck. Finally the Top ranked Seguleh seems to want to duel him because of what he has heard about the Avowed. He talks to him because he has to assert his superiority by having iron bars back down...knowing full well Iron Bars wont accept because of his near fatal injuries. His final some other time shows just how much respect the Avowed have garnered on Genebackis.

I am still hoping Blues ends up being better than Skinner. Long live the sword fighting mages! There is not enough of them if you ask me.

Sincerely

Bars beats Leal but after being starved and weak for days on end....so he's not at his best. Plus the avowed, aside from skinner and blues, are never said to be the most amazing swordsmen just very very hard and hardened by sorcery.
Then we have skinny-poos, he faced down dassem eh? well, so did a few people, even whiskeyjack held his own for a while before dassem wins. Dassem beats skinner back in ROTCG but Skinner cheats with his poncy magic armour....GTFO
Anyway, now Rell is a High Pimp, although it still takes Rell, Urko, some other people and such to stop Ryllandaras.
Even so, Mok would pwn all, even Dassem and Rake

[Vaddon Ra]

LATER BOOK SPOILERS MODGOD'D PUT OF EXISTANCE.
THIS IS THE RCG FORUM.
DO NOT POST EVENTS FROM LATER BOOKS HERE.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 27 June 2012 - 04:28 PM

[Fiddler]

The Seguleh are very interesting in a number of areas. The first, is that you never hear about Seguleh marrying or dating outside of Seguleh circles, unless it's an exile.

Now as to Rell and Mok's ability to fight like pure dervishes, both had experience outside of the typical Seguleh warriors scope. That is, Rell fought in a unit, and with detailed objectives. Mok did as part of the Punitive army as well. Rell knew each and every time that he tangled with Ry that he had backup, it might not come soon, or even in time, but he had it. Morale makes a difference.

Mok had Tool. Think about what he could have learned about Tool watching him fight, and what he would have been able to apply to later fights.

Now, the whole Mok vs Rake bit would not have gone as Mok hoped. Rake wasn't stupid and he didn't get to be so positively ancient because he killed every enemy with a sword. He was also Soletaken (the First tiste andii to become so from the blood of Tiam herself) he would have looked Mok up and down, then strafed him into oblivion with a breath weapon. End result, Mok's still dead, Rake is still ranked 7th. I just don't think Rake would endanger his plans by dying to a Seguleh who he could have seen was better than him with a blade just by watching him walk.

The Avowed aren't the best fighters as individuals, as a team though? They can coordinate better than any other army due to their dead brothers carrying messages back and forth, like texting necromantic style.

The inconsistencies among the Seguleh are, I think, mainly attributable to different books and different people having heard different rumors about them.

[iron chef iskaral]

I think one of the keys to this is the way the Seguleh duels are described. Like someone said, it's more of a martial art. One slight body movement is all that separates win from loss.

I always interpreted the Karsa / Seguleh (what was she, the 11th?) to be a really close fight. It was just one minute mistake from the 11th and Karsa used his size/strength/speed to take advantage. Like a Seguleh duel, although it may have seemed like a blowout (ie, no exchanging of blows, wounds) it was really incredibly close and could have gone either way.

I also think it's shown that even though Avowed are extremely resistant to physical harm, it does effect them. Months without water on a boat and a bolt to the gut, plus not expecting the speed of Leal, made it a pretty off balanced fight.

The Gruntle wrist break parrying... there are a million ways to parry something. Like someone above me said, the Seguleh were probably parrying by sliding the attacks off their weapons by shifting their weight and redirecting the force. The way the Seguleh are described, I doubt any of the Agatii would make the mistake of trying to absorb, with a sword or otherwise, the swing of a creature that big. Gruntle on the other hand might.

Cheers!