[beru]

senu (that was the youngest in MoI right?) was but 14 years old... (and a 14lvl initate too wich makes me wonder about how erly they start their training)

[Abyss]

I don't remember the specifics and anyways we've debated them countless times without really arriving at any conclusion other than Mok being 3rd and therefore awesome. Thurule seemed to be 18th but i can't remember why we thoiught so, and Senu was some level of 'Initiate' but we don't really know what that means either.

Based on Rell's narrative it certainly seems that all three were in the 'top 1000', which emans they are skilled and willful. Envy mentions to Krul that it is taking a hell of a lot of work for her to control them, and that they had expected the First to send a few hundred Blackmasks, not these three.

If we want to take it a step further, Senu's inclusion is especially telling since, at like 14 yrs old, he's on a mission being expected to keep up with the 3rd and his brother Thurule who, whatever his rank is, was good enuf to make Tool work for it, albeit with the flat of his sword (love that scene in MoI) - in other words Senu was expetionally talented despite his young age.

The above point that the Kell protecting the Matron is a good one and may say more about Senu and Thurule's high level of skill than it does about the Kell.

Back to Rell, again, i don't remember exactly what was said in his flashback (my reread is stalled at TB at the moment)but i did have the impression he was a low level within the top 1000 when he was exiled.

That doesn't tell us anything about his level at the time of the story, since he's been fighting for the Malazans for years and clearly hit an impressive level is skill - see the bit where the squad makes a run at the Li Heng throne and holds Rell in reserve until the absolute end where utterly outnumbered and overwhelmed, they send in Rell and he kills EVERYONE on the other side. A lot.


- Abyss, ...but seriously, what's with his hair...?

This post has been edited by Abyss: 24 March 2009 - 07:39 PM

[Jumpy]

Only L'oric mentioned it, about Iron Bars, but yeah he was fighting after having had a hole punched through his chest around a week before. And dehydration and hunger and all of the cons that come with being basically lost at sea with low provisions. The Segulah Bars fought looked to be, to me, at or around the 30th position. I need to find the page to see how ICE describes the mask.

Rell > Thurule > Senu. 'Nuff said. Thurule and Senu chopped the arms off of the K'ell Hunter, yes, but they attacked together at one time. And then big bad Mok came in and took off it's head, but big deal because it could not defend itself very well at that point.

Rell, on the otherhand, beat the shit out of a Soletaken Ry', several times during the battle, had owned TONS of enemy soldiers (someone mentioned Segulah fighting styles, and how 2/3 attacks to kill was good, and 1 attack was great -- well, he took on companies of trained soldiers, men with shields and crossbows, by himself. Obviously he has style, speed, power, and grace) and had been burned. Almost to death. So, while Senu and Thurule helped against Pannion's forces, most of that work came from Envy, then Tool and Mok, and the two pups. There is no way the fact that Rell is way better than Thurule and Senu can be contested.

On a side note, Rell probably could have beaten Tool, during the events of MoI. Tool's power was being drained, probably by Silverfox (that whore). And, as we know, undead creatures are slower than their living counterparts. I think he could've done it. HE WOUD HAVE DONE IT!

Anyway, enough of this slightly random post!

This post has been edited by Jumpy: 24 March 2009 - 04:53 PM

[Imperial Historian]

I think it's pretty clear that Thurule is only slightly higher ranked then Senu, though both a re clearly talented enough that one day they will be among the ranks of the agatti. Thurule is definitely not 18th, or anywhere close to that level.

'Where Senu's enamelled face-covering was crowded with dark-stained patterns, such decoration diminished successively in the other two examples. One was only slightly less marked than Senu's...'

I can't remember Rell's piece exactly, but as I remember there are several initiate levels progressing from blackmasks (ie level 0), of which senu is at the 14th level, and progression goes up these levels to the stage where members can become one of the top 1000 fighters.

Thurule might just be in the top 1000, but is just as likely to be one of the top level initiates.

From what we've seen I'd say Rell was probably good enough to be at least in the agatti, though not to the point where he could take on Mok

[blackzoid]

Jumpy, on Mar 24 2009, 04:51 PM, said:

Only L'oric mentioned it, about Iron Bars, but yeah he was fighting after having had a hole punched through his chest around a week before. And dehydration and hunger and all of the cons that come with being basically lost at sea with low provisions. The Segulah Bars fought looked to be, to me, at or around the 30th position. I need to find the page to see how ICE describes the mask.

Rell > Thurule > Senu. 'Nuff said. Thurule and Senu chopped the arms off of the K'ell Hunter, yes, but they attacked together at one time. And then big bad Mok came in and took off it's head, but big deal because it could not defend itself very well at that point.

Rell, on the otherhand, beat the shit out of a Soletaken Ry', several times during the battle, had owned TONS of enemy soldiers (someone mentioned Segulah fighting styles, and how 2/3 attacks to kill was good, and 1 attack was great -- well, he took on companies of trained soldiers, men with shields and crossbows, by himself. Obviously he has style, speed, power, and grace) and had been burned. Almost to death. So, while Senu and Thurule helped against Pannion's forces, most of that work came from Envy, then Tool and Mok, and the two pups. There is no way the fact that Rell is way better than Thurule and Senu can be contested.

On a side note, Rell probably could have beaten Tool, during the events of MoI. Tool's power was being drained, probably by Silverfox (that whore). And, as we know, undead creatures are slower than their living counterparts. I think he could've done it. HE WOUD HAVE DONE IT!

Anyway, enough of this slightly random post!

You seem to have forgotten that Therule and Senu fought KCCM Kell hunters by themesleves during MOI.
Elite Kell hunters if their armour is anything to go on. Paran and Quick Ben were astonished by their movements. This was when Mok was looking for Tool.
(Undead Kell hunters who had no problems taking out Treach. Treach who was able to beat Ryllandaras and knocked him into the chasm at Li Heng. So therefore one could argue Therule+ Senu > KCCM > Treach> Ryllandaras. Ryllandaras killed Rell. Course we don't know if that was Soletaken Ryllandaras or D'ivers Ryllandaras. And SE and ICE don't really have a strict hierarchy of fighters anyway.)

I don't know if Rell is worse then them but there is no conclusive evidence to say that he is better then them.
And how do you figue Rell could beat Tool? Tool was losing to Mok, but he is the freaking 3rd!
I don't think Tool gets enough credit as a swordsman/swordszombie.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 March 2009 - 06:44 PM

[Aptorian]

As, I think it was Abyss, someone said above, Rell held and fought two encounters with a gigantic wolf monster that eats armies and did it well.

Rell could give Tool a run for his money. I would put him up against any sword fighter in the series and expect him to do well, not necissarily win, but he'd have a chance.

[foolio]

Quote

And, as we know, undead creatures are slower than their living counterparts.

are we all agreed on this? I thought, if anything , Tlan Imass were faster than they had been when they were just Imass.

[Theotendo]

Re Seguleh and magery, they were not the magic wielding arm of the Tyrant's army. They are the brute strength. Now if you look at the names of the Daru cabal (Torrud) and you read RG you'd see that the two are different segments of the same organisation (T'orrud Seghul - Shield Anvil).
The 1000 (the Seguleh have a title for them but I forget) are ranked and duel among one another. They don't duel for the fun of it, but because that is the only way that leadership and hierarchy can be established in their society.
As for the comparible strengths or weaknesses of each individual Seguleh, I always take Mok (3rd) as my point of reference. He slices an undead KCCM into sausage. By all means, he has help from his brothers, but this is a K'ell Hunter. More than enough to cut through an entire army. That speaks of skill. Mountains of it. And he is the Third. Efficacy aplenty if you ask me.

[Aptorian]

Actually the way the three seguleh took out the Kell Hunter it implied to me that even the Senu could easily take one out alone. It was pure showmanship directed at Tool... and the readers.

[blackzoid]

Evidence:
Ryllandaras is a gigantic soletaken jackal.
He attack armies.
He fights Segulah A twice and kills him the second time.
Treach is a gigantic soletaken tiger.
Treach takes out Ryllandaras.
Treach is then taken out by 4 KCCM hunters. (KCCM hunters who decimate the Bridgeburners ,an army)
Segulah B +C take out KCCM hunters.

Result:
We therefore say that Segulah A who was killed by the Soletaken Jackel is better then Segulah B+C who can kill the KCCM?
Come on lads, the most we can say is that Rell is probably on the order of Seny and Therule. We can't say that he is better then them. Fighting Ryllandaras was an amazing achievement but Senu and Therule were able to chop their enemies into pieces. Both KCCM and room fulls of Pannion soldiers. They were covered in blood when they reached the top of the keep in MOI.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 March 2009 - 07:08 PM

[Aptorian]

That is such a load of bullshit conjecture!

You can't make those comparisons. It doesn't work that way.

The Treach we saw die in MoI was not the First Hero of old. He'd lost himself in the Tiger form and had reverted to nothing more than a big predator. Had Treach been himself he'd have shish-kebab'd those Kell Hunters, that's if he hadn't just blown them to bits with a wave of his hand. He was a powerfull soletaken. I don't doubt magic was involved in the clash between Treach and Trake.

[blackzoid]

Aptorian, on Mar 24 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

That is such a load of bullshit conjecture!

You can't make those comparisons. It doesn't work that way.

The Treach we saw die in MoI was not the First Hero of old. He'd lost himself in the Tiger form and had reverted to nothing more than a big predator. Had Treach been himself he'd have shish-kebab'd those Kell Hunters, that's if he hadn't just blown them to bits with a wave of his hand. He was a powerfull soletaken. I don't doubt magic was involved in the clash between Treach and Trake.

Magic was involded in the clash between Treach and Ryllandaras. Kellevend was also there and did trap him after he fell in the chasm.. It was probably a convergence.
My point is that there is no "proof" that Rell is better then the other 2 Segulah. People seem to want to believe that he is because he is in a Malazan squad and is "one of ours".

I hate to say it, but Rell's skill has probably DECLINED since leaving the Segulah island, because he was fighting inferior opposition. Like all things, if you don't keep it up, you become lazy at the lower level. Of course he could have been sparring with people like Dassem and Rake, in which case I would be wrong. Ande he may have learned new innovative techniques. But from a pure Segulah skill level, he probably got worse.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 March 2009 - 07:21 PM

[Abyss]

We're really, really falling into ho'd win territory here which is pointless. The answer is Wolverine. Move on.


I will note that Trake was all feral tiger animal brainz when he got killed by two Kell. he only recovered while he was dying. Kilava took both Kell out, for what its worth.

We know next to nothing about the Trake/Ry fight, least of all whether it was manjackal Ry or d'ivers Ry or pre-either of those soletaken Ry that Trake fought.

It's fair to say all the Seguleh characters we've seen have been immensely skilled. There's an open question about whether there is any sorcery involved in the Seguleh being as good as they are.

In MoI the Mok decapitation thing happened because Tool insisted that the three Seguleh show their skills, so Mok showed off, probably deliberately to provoke Tool (and it worked). At the finale, Senu and Thurule each face a bodyguard Kell and are losing when Moon's Spawn crashes the party, but bearing in mind a single Kell took on an entire troop of mounted Grey Swords, that's still saying something. If we want to be petty, we do see Tool (in a Toc the Younger vision) kill a Kell on his own.

The 'undead are slower than living' thing also comes from MoI - it reflects iirc a comment from Bauchelain, who would know what he's talking about.


- Abyss, ...Wolverine, ffs the answer is WOLVERINE!!!!

[Aptorian]

About the undead being slower than living.

That's nice, only T'lan Imass are supernatural killing machines and probably has a speedboost rather than becomming slower.

A kell hunter is a giant raptor with swords for arms. They should be far, far quicker than human beings. So in death they're what? Just twice as fast as any human is able to be?

The undead=slow argument is flawed.

[Abyss]

Not necessarily.

Bauchelain's comment was re the Kell hunters, so it only goes as far as that. we see two Kchain chemalle in RG wreak absolute havoc on various Letherii armies. The Malazans fought entire troops of them and survived.


The Imass are a different sort of undead - they didn't die then get dragged back, rather they Ritualled their entire race undead. And in their case, that means no getting tired and not being slowed down by wounds, so sure, when it comes to Imass Dead may = faster, but then, we don't really see a side-by-side to compare.

Shurq seemed to be more or less the same skill level after she died, but not being hurt let her do a few things she couldn't otherwise, like crawl over broken glass.


- Abyss, undead and loving it...

[Tosh]

Quote

The 'undead are slower than living' thing also comes from MoI - it reflects iirc a comment from Bauchelain, who would know what he's talking about.

Korlat speculates that the undead K'ell hunters should be slower than living ones, though Bauchelain might have done so aswell.

Rather bland for a first post, but I just re-read this part of MoI and I thought I'd wet my nose. :b

[Smashy]

Aptorian, on Mar 23 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

No the Seguleh 20th (if that was what he was) chose to address him because he wanted to duel him. Why, as far as I remember, wasn't specifically said. Maybe he needed to prove his position to his men, maybe he was intrigued by the potential he saw in Iron Bars, maybe he just likes to fight and this was the best challenge he'd faced in a while.

He challenged him because he is an Avowed, and the Seguleh had heard tales of them. I really should of read all the posts, this has been adressed already.

This post has been edited by Smashy: 25 March 2009 - 10:34 AM

[Abyss]

Tosh, on Mar 24 2009, 08:01 PM, said:

Quote

The 'undead are slower than living' thing also comes from MoI - it reflects iirc a comment from Bauchelain, who would know what he's talking about.

Korlat speculates that the undead K'ell hunters should be slower than living ones, though Bauchelain might have done so aswell.

Rather bland for a first post, but I just re-read this part of MoI and I thought I'd wet my nose. :b

I stand corrected, and welcome.

Smashy, on Mar 25 2009, 06:10 AM, said:

Aptorian, on Mar 23 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

No the Seguleh 20th (if that was what he was) chose to address him because he wanted to duel him. Why, as far as I remember, wasn't specifically said. Maybe he needed to prove his position to his men, maybe he was intrigued by the potential he saw in Iron Bars, maybe he just likes to fight and this was the best challenge he'd faced in a while.

He challenged him because he is an Avowed, and the Seguleh had heard tales of them. I really should of read all the posts, this has been adressed already.

But didn't he say that if IB had identified himself as Avowed there wouldn't have been any need for the duel?


- Abyss, uncertain.

[L'oric]

Quote

But didn't he say that if IB had identified himself as Avowed there wouldn't have been any need for the duel?


- Abyss, uncertain.

I think he just says why didnt you say you were of the Avowed we have heard of them or something. It implied to me that the lesser ranking Seguleh would not have been the one to fight him, but not that there would have been no duel. Iron Bars was acting as if he was inferior so the Seguleh did not know who he was anymore than he knew what they were.

The seguleh seemed to have needed the provisions on the boat as much as the crimson guard did. What would have happened if Iron Bars had answered/declared himself of the crimson guard from the beginning? I don't know, but I would have loved to have seen that as well...maybe we can have alternate story timelines ala Marvel "what if" series.

[Onos]

I am pretty sure both Senu and Therule are NOT in the Agati. Their masks were a wash with marks/colors. They are high level initiates, but not fully trained. Seriously, the Seguleh only needed to send Mok to the Pannion. I view Senu and Therule as the two kids who won a coloring contest and got to go on a field trip with Mok. More as a life experience that may even be required before they can join the Agati. If anything Mok was less effective since he had to babysit the youngsters! (would be true for others, though i suppose the Seguleh dislike weakness and would have no problem with ineffective youngsters being culled)