[Cowl's Disciple]

If this topic has been raised before then I apologize (and mods please delete it) but it occurs to me,after re-reading BH, that The Claw have become something akin the Stormtroopers of Star Wars.

I draw this comparison because in GoTM The Claw are viewed with the same kind of fear and awe that the Stormtroopers were in Ep. IV, but as the series has progressed the regularity with which characters can escape, evade or destroy multiple claw single handed is become ridiculous (although we haven't had Iskaral Pust's winged monkey things kill any yet like the Ewoks of Ep VI thankfully).

It's gotten to the point where they are losing (in my opinion) any aura of fear or power which makes beating a claw, or claws, such a considerable feat.

As the series is moving away from the Malazan Empire somewhat in the remaining books we may not see much more of them, but it seems to me a shame and I'd be interested to hear what other people thought?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Wel, I think that since those who we have seen escape the Claw are skilled assassins(Kalam and Apsalar) or other experienced fighters I don't agree with you. The common folk would still get very scared if they ever see a Claw knocking at their door.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 08 March 2009 - 12:50 PM

[Raraku]

From our view point the Claw have lost their fear factor but as said above, the common people still fear them a lot.
Also in tBH, Braven Tooth sends those 2 soldiers after 1 claw and they get their butts handed to them.
The only people who ve escaped or done a lot of damage to them are freaking awesome.

[iRFNA]

Ya, kalam is an extremely exceptional assassin who was also armed with an otataral blade, and also had some significant support. He didn't do nearly as well his first time around in the series, although he was at quite a bit of a disadvantage. Apsalar has the power of the god of assassins, who is arguably one of the best people at combat in the series. Even temper, who fought alongside dassem and saw his full abilities, says that dancer cannot be matched.

[HoosierDaddy]

You all are forgetting the decimation of the Claw that has taken place throughout the series.

In GotM, Toc is the only Claw agent left in Onearm's Host, perhaps in all of Genebackis.

In DG, Kalam puts a whooping on some Claw, and as has been stated, is one of the finest assasin's in Wu. Topper allows Kalam to "trim the branches", so that unworthy Claw die.

In TBH, Topper has gone missing (he's in the Imperial Warren) & the Claw have been infiltrated by Rel's "Gloves." At this point, a war within the Claw has begun and it's eficacy as a whole has been therefore decimated.

Then, we have Apsalar, who for some reason is picking off Claw agents throughout TBH, Kalam, and a God's possessed woman unleash holy hell in Malaz City. There's an unholy trinity of killers.

Lasseen has had to fill in the ranks, so to speak, with quickly and, therefore more poorly, trained assassins.

Finally, the Malazan Empire has been at war for a long time. People die in war, even the best, through simple attrition.

Until the empire faces a time of "relative" calm in which to train assassins and use them in their preferred role, the Claw will remain weaker then it was at its height.

[D'rek]

I don't buy all that. There are hundreds and hundreds of Claws, I don't think Laseen could possibly have gotten 'desperate' enough to start hiring new ones with inadequate training. Claw training takes years and years, I don't think I'd attribute the deaths of some to mean that the remaining ones are getting less skilled. If anything, the few remaining should be the best since they are still alive...

Obviously Kalam, Apsalar, Tavore and T'amber are exceptional. However, Hellian beat a claw with her bare hands while she was drunk. That Claw must have been an exceptionally terrible Claw, and yet he was expected to take on Banaschar who has a handful of warrens...

Temper is somewhat debatable, but I think he takes down the claws a bit too easily in NoK, seeing as he isn't Guardian yet or anything...

[iRFNA]

Hellian is likened to a mini-coltaine by one of the bonehunters in reaper's gale. Plus, she managed to swim to malaz city through a bay of sharks in platemail, even kalam wouldn't try that.

Temper also manages to hold off Surgen from killing Dassem, which is a pretty ridiculous feat. I'd say that's less believable than him fighting claws.

This post has been edited by iRFNA: 09 March 2009 - 12:43 AM

[Cowl's Disciple]

I understand that Kalam & Apsalar are exceptional assassins but aren't The Claw supposed to be able to deal with exceptional targets (mages, assassin guilds, priesthoods, rulers with elite guards etc.)?

I don't have a problem with claw personnel being beaten and killed by an Apsalar or Kalam, and I think HoosierDaddy makes a good point about the claw being overstretched, but as the series has gone on it seems that there are few 'main characters' (for lack of a better expression) who can't avoid or kill single or multiple claw agents.

[Benji]

I've always thought of the Claw as more like the red shirts from Star Trek...

[beru]

they are suposed to kill enemys that dont exspect them not someone that fights back so kalam and apsalar (wich i think is doing rediculos thing in tbh) take them on their weak spot namly fighting good ppl

[Abyss]

Benji, on Mar 9 2009, 08:43 AM, said:

I've always thought of the Claw as more like the red shirts from Star Trek...

dammit, you beat me to it...

But seriously folks... let's keep in mind that the Claw are assassins, NOT soldiers. That point is made abundantly clear in TB during the whole T'amber and Tavore as professional sword(wo)men v claw thing.

I agree Kalam and Apsalar are exceptional, hence why they wreak such damage, and also keep in mind they have both been soldiers as well as assassins.

Claw, when actings as assassins, working in infiltrating 'hands', have taken out all manner of mages, high priests, etc. We've seen them get trashed when they confront overtly, and yeah, in TB the one stalking Bana took out two soldiers. See also NoK where Ash's ex-Bridgeburners are wiped out.

Anyrate, while it does seem that they verge on redshirtdom at times, the situations where SE (and ICE) have used them that way were the exceptional exception, rather than the rule.

- Abyss, could say they got 'backhanded'...

[Slow Ben]

I dont know if the claw are failing or if we're just seeing them against tougher odds, not just assassinating nobles.
But in my opinion if you want to look at how far the Claw has fallen, just look at the leadership.

Topper was the leader of the claw and he's obviously a badass who can hang with Cowl and killed all the claws who travels the imperial warren.

Then in the later books you get Possum who gets his ass handed too him by everyone and just comes off to me as an utter fool.

The claw just seemed a lot stronger in the early books

[D'rek]

Supposedly a single Hand of the claw was enough fear for the entire cadre of wizards in Pale to flee even with Rake over their heads protecting them. And supposedly this cadre of wizards was the best one in northern Genebackis... so right off the bat the Claw has a pretty inflated reputation and I guess they just never lived up to it...

[Abyss]

I suppose it's worth noting that when we see the Malazan Empire in GotM and subsequent, it's been under Laseen for about a decade or so, most of its major conquests are behind it and the Claw has grown beyond its origins but also become Laseen's primary tool. While we haven't seen as much about Dancer's Talon's, the Talon was the primary assassination tool behind Kel and co building the ME, NOT the Claw. The Claw really came into its own when dancer and Kel buggered off and Surly's claw purged most of the Talon.

So while there are instances like Pale and YGhatan (NoK flashback) where the Claw was effective and nasty and all (hey, they DID incite a full blown riot in TB), neither the Claw, nor the Empire are exactly in their prime when we're introduced. Hardly a joke, but not what it once was.

- Abyss, could say the Caws have been trimmed...

[Vengeance]

Slow Ben, on Mar 9 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

I dont know if the claw are failing or if we're just seeing them against tougher odds, not just assassinating nobles.
But in my opinion if you want to look at how far the Claw has fallen, just look at the leadership.

Topper was the leader of the claw and he's obviously a badass who can hang with Cowl and killed all the claws who travels the imperial warren.

Then in the later books you get Possum who gets his ass handed too him by everyone and just comes off to me as an utter fool.

The claw just seemed a lot stronger in the early books

Of course they were better in the earlier books. Under Kellanved the claw were lead by Surly "Laseen" who was a master assassin. The early claw also was competing against Cotillion's Talons. You had two competing groups of assassins. Competition makes people better. After Laseen took over and her and her claws eliminated the Talons. Who were they going to be competing against. Oh you still had Topper and Pearl and Possom. After them what did you have? Nothing much. It never would have taken a ton of Claw members to build up their reputation. Just a top few. Just like any other organization. Can we expect some new cream to rise to the top of the claw, of course. But they won't be rising over the likes of Kalam, Topper, Pearl and Laseen. The will be rising over the ranks of assassins who never had to compete against the Talon.

I also think that the claw was never a force that could go up against an ascendant. Sure certain members might have a shot, but on the whole they were mainly there to take out unwary mages and to keep the populace in line.

[foolio]

Quote

Supposedly a single Hand of the claw was enough fear for the entire cadre of wizards in Pale to flee even with Rake over their heads protecting them. And supposedly this cadre of wizards was the best one in northern Genebackis... so right off the bat the Claw has a pretty inflated reputation and I guess they just never lived up to it...

They might inspire fear in the wizards but they dont cause a problem to Rake. I think he tells Baruk he killed the entire hand before it made it 100 paces inside the city.

Also I think they should be similar to Red Shirts in any book after the Bonehunters. Kalam and Apsalar destroyed the claw. I could be way off here but I think somewhere close to 250 of the best claws were killed in Malaz that night. They shouldnt just be able to restock with well trained mage-assasins in a year, or months.

[Abyss]

Vengeance, on Mar 9 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Of course they were better in the earlier books. Under Kellanved the claw were lead by Surly "Laseen" who was a master assassin. The early claw also was competing against Cotillion's Talons. You had two competing groups of assassins. Competition makes people better....

VERY good point this.

Quote

I also think that the claw was never a force that could go up against an ascendant. Sure certain members might have a shot, but on the whole they were mainly there to take out unwary mages and to keep the populace in line.

And assassinate leaders and majopr players in opposing forces before they took the field against the Malazans. Plus internal 'control'.

foolio, on Mar 9 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

...They shouldnt just be able to restock with well trained mage-assasins in a year, or months.

two thoughts on this: 1) much of the Claw that was wiped out by Kalam and Apsalar on Malaz Isl in TB were Black Glove loyal to Mallick...

and 2) don't forget there's Claw all over the rather huge Empire. Clearly we see in TB that using them as 'soldiers', even in a subversive stir up the population sort of way, isn't as effective as sending them in to kill major players, but in RCG we see there are any number of 'assassin duels' going on behind the scenes between the Loyalists, Veils, Glove and Claw.

- Abyss, notes the Foot were wiped out by turtles and then of course there's the Hand...

[D'rek]

foolio, on Mar 9 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

They might inspire fear in the wizards but they dont cause a problem to Rake. I think he tells Baruk he killed the entire hand before it made it 100 paces inside the city.

But that's just it. Even with Rake present, the sheer mention of the Claw trying to infiltrate sent a dozen powerful wizards running, without the claw even having to accomplish anything. Thus the enormous reputation right off the bat.

The other last few posts have been very valid and good points all around! The bit on how the Talons used to be the prime assassins has some merit. It is said that in the olden days the Talons were the espionage agents, sneaking into enemy territory to spy and take out important people, while the Claw were the counter-espionage, secret internal police who prevented spy incursions and policed the Empire. Kinda like MI6 and MI5...

[Cowl's Disciple]

This may be slightly off topic but it has to do with the Claw's status as Mage-Assassins. Is it assumed that 99% of Claw are magic users (with Kalam being one of the few non-practioners to have been part of the claw)? If so then I'd bet most claw against a Malaz soldier any day....unless he has Moranth munitions.

[Mazrim]

D'rek, on Mar 9 2009, 05:51 PM, said:

foolio, on Mar 9 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

They might inspire fear in the wizards but they dont cause a problem to Rake. I think he tells Baruk he killed the entire hand before it made it 100 paces inside the city.

But that's just it. Even with Rake present, the sheer mention of the Claw trying to infiltrate sent a dozen powerful wizards running, without the claw even having to accomplish anything. Thus the enormous reputation right off the bat.

The other last few posts have been very valid and good points all around! The bit on how the Talons used to be the prime assassins has some merit. It is said that in the olden days the Talons were the espionage agents, sneaking into enemy territory to spy and take out important people, while the Claw were the counter-espionage, secret internal police who prevented spy incursions and policed the Empire. Kinda like MI6 and MI5...

Well to be fair it was the claw plus the fact that Tay was outside the gate I for one wouldn't want to fight the High Mage and the claw even with Rake present he cant be everywhere and the Claw are mage killers