[foolio]

from abyss

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two thoughts on this: 1) much of the Claw that was wiped out by Kalam and Apsalar on Malaz Isl in TB were Black Glove loyal to Mallick...

Laseen knew the shit was going to hit the fan during this episode at Malaz Island. She brought herself and I think 3 boatloads of Claw into Malaz for the festivitites. I, personally, would think she would want mostly loyal claws in that group so that the evening of madness does not turn into the evening of laseens assasination...I guess it depends on rather you think Laseen was a good knowledgeable Empress or a moronic clueless empress. Shadow Throne certainly thought the entire claw was decimated, not just the majority of a faction...You would think he would have a reasonable idea of how many Claw memebers their are.

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But that's just it. Even with Rake present, the sheer mention of the Claw trying to infiltrate sent a dozen powerful wizards running, without the claw even having to accomplish anything. Thus the enormous reputation right off the bat.

not trying to be a smartass, but maybe the Wizards of pale were just a cowardly group. Nobody likes going through life feeling like you have a target on your back.

I think the best possibility is the claw's bark was always greater than their bite. I would think that part of the claws job is fear mongering. Very usefull tool. They would spread rumors about how no one escaped a "night of butchery" from their last conquest. "Mages were helpless against them , for all claw carry otatarol weapons." We know this isnt true but would the wizards of Pale? Propaganda would be an incredibly powerful tool of the claw. If they were not using propaganda and disinformation they would be throwing away a great ally.

This post has been edited by foolio: 10 March 2009 - 12:39 PM

[Abyss]

foolio, on Mar 10 2009, 08:33 AM, said:

Laseen knew the shit was going to hit the fan during this episode at Malaz Island. She brought herself and I think 3 boatloads of Claw into Malaz for the festivitites. I, personally, would think she would want mostly loyal claws in that group so that the evening of madness does not turn into the evening of laseens assasination...I guess it depends on rather you think Laseen was a good knowledgeable Empress or a moronic clueless empress.

Per RCG, i think Laseen would bring along as many Glove as possible very intentionally so that if the shit fans the hit, it's Mallick's people who are wiped out before her own.

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Shadow Throne certainly thought the entire claw was decimated, not just the majority of a faction...You would think he would have a reasonable idea of how many Claw memebers their are.

St to Apsalar, TB at the end...

'Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion... Too many bad judgments, the poor woman. As we feared... Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven Claws... i still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now. Too bad for her.'

I'm not sure i agree with your interp of ST's comment, but it does seem that he feels the massacre was Laseen's fault. But that said, as in RCG, people, especially Old Guard, tend to underestimate Laseen.

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...I think the best possibility is the claw's bark was always greater than their bite. I would think that part of the claws job is fear mongering. Very usefull tool. They would spread rumors about how no one escaped a "night of butchery" from their last conquest. "Mages were helpless against them , for all claw carry otatarol weapons." We know this isnt true but would the wizards of Pale? Propaganda would be an incredibly powerful tool of the claw. If they were not using propaganda and disinformation they would be throwing away a great ally.

I tend to agree there was spin control, but also a degree of fear of the ME generally, along with the Claw.

- Abyss, always loved the 'Not even Cotillion' bit...

[foolio]

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Foolio
Shadow Throne certainly thought the entire claw was decimated, not just the majority of a faction...You would think he would have a reasonable idea of how many Claw memebers their are.

Abyss
St to Apsalar, TB at the end...

'Not even Cotillion. Not even Cotillion... Too many bad judgments, the poor woman. As we feared... Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven Claws... i still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now. Too bad for her.'

I'm not sure i agree with your interp of ST's comment, but it does seem that he feels the massacre was Laseen's fault. But that said, as in RCG, people, especially Old Guard, tend to underestimate Laseen.

I wasnt trying to assess blame, I was saying that I thought the entire claw as an orginization had been devastated that night, not just the Black Gloves. It was this part I was refering to;"Tonight, the Clawmaster, and three hundred and seven Claws... i still... disbelieve. No matter. She's on her own, now."

I was responding to your suggestion that it was just the Black Glove that Kalam and Apsalar devestated that night. Maybe shadowthrone meant she is alone because the Black Gloves rule the Claw. I took it to mean , her entire Claw, loyal and disloyal, were decimated.

This post has been edited by foolio: 10 March 2009 - 08:41 PM

[Jumpy]

Kalam took out more than his fair share of Hands! Don't forget! It wasn't just that upstart Apsalar!

[Abyss]

foolio, on Mar 10 2009, 04:15 PM, said:

...
I was responding to your suggestion that it was just the Black Glove that Kalam and Apsalar devestated that night. Maybe shadowthrone meant she is alone because the Black Gloves rule the Claw. I took it to mean , her entire Claw, loyal and disloyal, were decimated.

We know from RCG that there were plenty of Claw left from both factions. Really it could go either way, and Laseen shows a tendency to happily sacrifice even loyal Claw for bigger goals.

Jumpy, on Mar 10 2009, 11:27 PM, said:

Kalam took out more than his fair share of Hands! Don't forget! It wasn't just that upstart Apsalar!

Kalam had Tavore and Tamber backing him up for most of that. And he still almost died! Apsalar went solo. Ergo, Kalam is a big huge wus.



I'm kidding, he had the harder job of protecting the target all the Claw were after. No one even knew Apsalar was in the game until she wiped them out and she has superhuman god skillz while Kalam gets by on his own abilities.


- Abyss, wonders how many 'wtf Kalam rulez!' posters won't make it to the second part there...

This post has been edited by Abyss: 11 March 2009 - 02:36 PM

[foolio]

Abyss

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We know from RCG that there were plenty of Claw left from both factions.

Yes you are corect. But I originally said I expected the majority to be like Red shirts. The way they restocked after Bonehunters leads me to believe that many of them were not worth a damn. Rushed along recruits if you will. You could put me in green clothes and calll me a Claw but it doesnt mean I will be a great assasin...

abyss

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I'm kidding, he had the harder job of protecting the target all the Claw were after. No one even knew Apsalar was in the game until she wiped them out and she has superhuman god skillz while Kalam gets by on his own abilities.

I agree. Apsalar had a massive advantage in that all of her targets thought they were hunting Kalam and were focussing ambushes on him. Apsalar, as an unknown player, certainly turned the tables on them...

[Trull's son]

Does Toc the Younger ever demonstrate claw-like behaviour or training? I would at least expect a little mockra to be at his command, but no. He uses a bow, never really any kind of dagger or long knife. I understand he has served in Dujeks army, but you would think that his Claw training would come in handy every now and again. Don't get me wrong, his character is among the best of the series, but he isn't remarkable as a Claw (i do not recall reading about Claw runniing around with bows:P). He has more of the Ganoes element of surprise to his character than the feeling of a trained hardcore killer.

[D'rek]

Trull's son, on Mar 11 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

Does Toc the Younger ever demonstrate claw-like behaviour or training? I would at least expect a little mockra to be at his command, but no. He uses a bow, never really any kind of dagger or long knife. I understand he has served in Dujeks army, but you would think that his Claw training would come in handy every now and again. Don't get me wrong, his character is among the best of the series, but he isn't remarkable as a Claw (i do not recall reading about Claw runniing around with bows:P). He has more of the Ganoes element of surprise to his character than the feeling of a trained hardcore killer.

He's not an assassin-Claw, just a spy. His training probably only covered surveillance, observation, working undercover, stuff like that. And whatever he needed to send out his reports. Remember there were other Claw in Dujek's armies prior to GotM, so there were probably others Toc could contact for the nasty stuff and thus his position as spy wouldn't be compromised. Or something.

I can try to dig up the exact quote from MoI, but basically he says he wasn't one of the assassins or anything particularly close to that.


Oh I wanted to answer this too:

Cowl's Disciple, on Mar 9 2009, 06:46 PM, said:

This may be slightly off topic but it has to do with the Claw's status as Mage-Assassins. Is it assumed that 99% of Claw are magic users (with Kalam being one of the few non-practioners to have been part of the claw)? If so then I'd bet most claw against a Malaz soldier any day....unless he has Moranth munitions.

Though it is somewhat assumed, I don't think that 99% of the claw are actually magic users. There are definitely a lot of magic users in the claw, which is understandable since they look for potential new members and recruit them at a very young age, so they probably gobble up potential assassin-mages as fast as they can find them. However, most of them I think are not mages, they merely use various magical-imbued items and possibly have a few easy spells of Mockra or Meanas that can be learned by virtually anyone with enough intense training. For more intense magic, there is probably at least one fully-fledged mage-assassin in every Hand who can use spells on the whole Hand.

This is the impression I get from Kalam's long claw fights in DG and tBH, anyway...

This post has been edited by D'rek: 12 March 2009 - 03:04 AM

[beru]

i think atleast one to five claws is able to hide the rest with maickal means... but not nesserly fight with maick wich requiers a whole other way of wielding yoiur warren as (far as i know)

[RangerSG]

I think that one member of the five is always more a mage/assassin. And he uses this to shelter and spot for the rest. In Deadhouse, Kalam is always padding after the one in the center/back to start. I've never thought "every" claw, or even almost every, was an assassin/mage. Though it's only logical those who can more effectively use magic are the ones who rise in the organization.

Oh, and even though I love Kalam's character too...I also was stunned at Shadowthrone's "Not even Cotillion" at the end. Kalam may have had the harder job, but there is still no one that compares to Apsalar.

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 12 March 2009 - 10:07 AM

[Abyss]

I tend to agree - one in five Claw as a mage is probably a reasonable guestimate based on what we've seen.

The cadre that Pearl sent against Kalam at the end of TB was notable because they were non-mage types who, similar to Kalam and unlike the 'usual' sleek lithe assassin sterotype, were big and strong but still skilled assassins.

It's interesting that a relatively weak mage could still become a strong Claw based on training and skill, similar to how a squad mage can be an asset even if they aren't powerful.

- Abyss, kitchen mage.

[Traveller]

The fear caused by the Claw was also due to their use warrens to access hard-to-reach, well defended positions - they would seemingly appear from nowhere. And, in the early books, warren travel is portrayed as an unusual, mysterious thing that not many normal people know much about.

So I'd say that at least one in a hand would be able to at least access the Imperial warren, even if their magic was limited.

In regards to Kalam; during that final battle in Malaz, he may not have the heart for it - he fought exceptionally well, as ever, but in the lead up to that, he was pretty judgemental about what he thought should happen to assassins, and himself.

[tiam]

Id say the majority of Claws use magic and also the majority of assasins tbh. Vorcans guild uses loads of magic with Rallick being the xception. It makes sense they all have magic, to varying degrees. Hellian snuck up on the claw she killed. An assasin vs soldier scenario would probably end with the assasin winning very quickly i.e. thrown weapon or losing very quickly i.e. no armour. It just makes sense that the best assasins weve seen are Topper, Cowl Vorcan and Serrat all magic users. Kalam and Rallick are out of the loop. They all use disguising or subversive magicks rather than fireballs at targets.

[Aptorian]

tiam, on Apr 5 2009, 03:57 PM, said:

Id say the majority of Claws use magic and also the majority of assasins tbh. Vorcans guild uses loads of magic with Rallick being the xception. It makes sense they all have magic, to varying degrees. Hellian snuck up on the claw she killed. An assasin vs soldier scenario would probably end with the assasin winning very quickly i.e. thrown weapon or losing very quickly i.e. no armour. It just makes sense that the best assasins weve seen are Topper, Cowl Vorcan and Serrat all magic users. Kalam and Rallick are out of the loop. They all use disguising or subversive magicks rather than fireballs at targets.

The majority of new Claws use magic and that has also been described as their greatest weakness, relying too much on their magic, being overconfident when facing non magic wielding opponents.

Rallick and Kalam, and Crokus/Cutter for that matter aswell, have proven that you don't need magic to be a deadly assassin. They rely on oldschool tactics and pure skill while a new claw is more likely to use his magical tricks as a crutch.

Assassins do not win in a proper fight against a soldier, this is explained in BH I think. Soldiers use heavy protection shielding them from all but the most precise strikes and they have a sword which, when wielded with skill, gives them the upper hand in the fight against an assassin. A knife, unless used from behind or thrown with luck, does not win against a sword. Assassins are supposed to strike from the shadows and always have the upper hand, if it ever comes to direct blows with an armed soldier, the assassin has lost his advantage and should high tail it before he loses his head.

[D'rek]

Of course it all matters on skill and experience. A great assassin can throw a knife into the tiniest little cracks between armor plates, while a good soldier would probably see it coming and block it with a shield or arm greave or just dodge. A rookie assassin or soldier can't do any of those.

[tiam]

Dreks right it completely subjective to the assasin a d the soldier

[Aptorian]

This is of course a fantasy setting so things a skewed but I it is specifically stated that soldiers beat assassins, it's Karsa's own judgement if I am remembering the quote right. Kalam is an exceptionally skilled assassin and knifefighter and he says the odds are in the soldiers favor.

Contrary to popular belief you don't "just" throw a knife into an eye socket or throat with pinpoint accuracy, and if the assassin needs to get in and go for an opening in the armor he first needs to get past three feet of steel or a halberd, maybe even a shield, besides trying to handle a soldier trained to brawl in the armor he's wearing.

Assassins are not actually ment to pick a fight, that's just Kalam being a silly ninja cartoon bear.

[Grief]

Of course soldiers have the advantage.

Assassins are specifically trained for sneaking about, killing before noticed, from behind etc.

Soldiers are trained to fight upfront against an opponent.

In a straight fight, a soldiers training is far more relevant, as well as having the weaponry advantage. A sword and a shield are far better in a straight fight than a knife. You can defend yourself far easier, and have greater reach.

Unless the assassin is very very good, then in a straight fight, a soldier will kill him or her.

[tiam]

Crokus, not exacly a brilliant assasin, taks dow a few edur who do ave shields, swords etc. So why cant we just agree its subjective. with no soldier> assasin stereotypes being thrown around

[Aptorian]

Do you actually remember Crokus fight on Drift Avalii? Because that one actually disproves your own statement.

Crokus is actually a skilled knifefighter, compared to your average mortal assassin - he's not Apsalar, but she's a carbon copy of an assassin god. And Crokus was messed up by the Edur. He gets shield bashed early on and one side of his body practically becomes useless. Crokus was forced to go for debilitating moves like aiming for the legs, etc. What do you think would have happened if he'd tryed taking the Edur head on?