[Aptorian]

I think Hetan needs to go make such a thread...

[Karnadas]

Quote

...it appeared that Dassem was part of Kel and Dancer's original plan to form an empire, chart the Azath and eventually ascend to godhood,...

Well he was part of the Family, but he was one of the last three to be "recruited" (along with Toc Elder and Tayschrenn). I'm still not too sure how much the original two would have shared with the rest of them (apart from having Imperial ambitions), Kel and Dancer have always seemed very cagey.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the only word we have to go on that dassem was among the last to join the family is admiral Nok, and during that speech he speaks known untruths.

apsalar on the other hand, holding cotillions memory says that it was never just cot and kel. from the very beginning there was always a third. if thats not dassem i'll eat my hat. he and kellenved are both dal honese after all.

i can just see it, two midnight skinned men walk out from the jungle and into li heng, they enter a tavern and take a seat at an empty table. from across the room, a shadowy figure with a rope coiled and hanging from its shoulder watches them with avaricious eyes...

ooh shivers!

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 26 February 2009 - 02:28 AM

[Karnadas]

Fair enough. I'm not disputing your point when I ask: what are the known untruths?

EDIT: Apart from Hawl still being alive, that is... Just read that.

This post has been edited by Karnadas: 26 February 2009 - 02:37 PM

[Called-by-the-Voices]

It occurred to me that maybe Dassem was Dassembrae even before he became Sword of the Empire. He was at the last chaining after all, but I'm slightly confused whether that chaining took part during the Malazan Empire period or earlier. If earlier, then he must've been some powerful daddy even before teaming up with Cot and ST.

I'm ranting?

[Karnadas]

I think the consensus was that the last chaining took place about a decade before GotM, at which point he was the Knight of Hood. Cotillion was there as well. Whether Kellanved was or not, I couldn't say...

This post has been edited by Karnadas: 26 February 2009 - 04:13 PM

[Abyss]

The question of what came first, First Sword of the ME or Knight of Hood is a valid one but i'd lean towards FS before KoH.
The Dessembrae thing happened later, my take is AFTER the break from Hood.

- Abyss, wonders about the Hounds of Tragedy...

[Sinisdar Toste]

Karnadas, on Feb 26 2009, 07:15 AM, said:

Fair enough. I'm not disputing your point when I ask: what are the known untruths?

EDIT: Apart from Hawl still being alive, that is... Just read that.

well thats the only one really. then we have to ask ourselves, how much does Nok know about the earliest days of the kel and cot partnership? since he arrived with the napans there's a large period of time that he has no first hand knowledge about. dassem could have parted ways with kel and cot early on to pursue making ties with hood and only came back to join the family after that was complete.

i just find it unlikely that the only other dal hon in the family came around right at the end of its nascent period

[Ain't_It_Just_]

If Traveller isn't Dassem....

Then one must be an alter-ego. Best I can come up with.

Apsalar's memories said Dassem knew Kellanved and Dancer before all the others. Could that famous duo once have been three? o_O

[Quick~]

Hetan, on Feb 25 2009, 06:16 PM, said:

I have to say that a life story of Dassem would be far more interesting to me than an Andii story
I would love to know what he and Kellanved and Dancer plotted for sure.

That would have been awesome, I'd have loved to see some books written about the early empire days.

[Bika]

I suspect that what Kellanved and Dancer plotted early on will come out in the next couple of books

[Rath'Thrash]

Hetan, on Feb 25 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

I have to say that a life story of Dassem would be far more interesting to me than an Andii story
I would love to know what he and Kellanved and Dancer plotted for sure.

I would love nothing more than an in-depth account of the rise of the Empire, from the tavern in Malaz City and on

[geNESis]

Ain, on 28 February 2009 - 05:42 AM, said:

If Traveller isn't Dassem....

Then one must be an alter-ego. Best I can come up with.

Apsalar's memories said Dassem knew Kellanved and Dancer before all the others. Could that famous duo once have been three? o_O

The lines your referencing are:

'I knew him.' 'Not my memories. Dancer's. Dancer knew him. Knew him well. They were . . . three. It was never just the two of them - did you know that? Never just Dancer and Kellanved. No, he was there. Almost from the very begining. Before Tayschrenn, before Dujek, before even Surly.'

As told by Apsalar to Cutter in HoC, page 662 in my copy.

This post has been edited by geNESis: 20 February 2010 - 09:00 AM

[Harvester]

By the way, Shadowthrone and Cotillion did not yet exist when Dassem's daughter was taken.

Quote

and it bred caution in the unveiling of its powers. The Crippled God bred

caution but not well enough, for the powers of the earth came to it in the

end. Chained was the Crippled God, and so Chained was it destroyed. And

upon this barren plain that imprisoned the Crippled God many gathered to

the deed. Hood, gray wanderer of Death, was among the gathering, as was

Dessembrae, then Hood's Warrior - though it was here and in this time

that Dessembrae shattereed the bonds Hood held upon him. Also among

the gathering were

GotM, US HC, p.274

Quote

"We have lost allies in our foolishness. Dassem Ultor, who was broken by Hood's taking of his daughter at the Time of the Chaining – this was a devastating blow. Dassem Ultor, the First Sword reborn—...Dassem, his (Hood's)Champion – Dessembrae – had grown to rival his power... Consider: from Dassem's fall, a mortal empire now totters on the edge of chaos. From Dassem's fall, the Shadow Throne found a new occupant." - K'rul

MoI, UK Trade, p.236-7

This post has been edited by Harvester: 20 February 2010 - 04:09 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I don't see why those quotes mean ST and Cotillion were around when his daughter was taken. Unless you mean that in the sense they were still Kellanved and Dancer at the time? That would be true. But if you mean all that happened long before their birth I think you're wrong. Otherwise how would Apsalar have recognized Dassem's daughter from Dancer's memories? Also in RotCG there is a line about how Dassem was able to drive off Ryllandaras when the Malazans were fighting in Li Heng because he was favored by Hood at the time. Also I'm pretty sure there's a quote somewhere that Dancer was at the most recent chaining. Just because K'rul doesn't mention him in that quote doesn't mean he wasn't around.

[Harvester]

Yes, as I said ... or quoted, they did not yet exist as ST and Cotillion because they were still K&D at that time. Btw. I wanted to point out that they were NOT around when Dassem's daughter was taken.

//edit:

Wait a second, could it be that K&D were present at the last chaining - but as mortals? That would explain certain things...

This post has been edited by Harvester: 20 February 2010 - 10:18 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Yes they weren't around in their ascended forms, I was just clarifying that that was what you meant.

[D'rek]

Harvester, on 20 February 2010 - 10:08 PM, said:

Yes, as I said ... or quoted, they did not yet exist as ST and Cotillion because they were still K&D at that time. Btw. I wanted to point out that they were NOT around when Dassem's daughter was taken.

//edit:

Wait a second, could it be that K&D were present at the last chaining - but as mortals? That would explain certain things...

Dancer is known to have been there. We don't know for sure about Kellanved.

[Harvester]

Hm, that is very interesting indeed. I would like to know the reason why they... or he was erm somehow privileged to attend the chaining.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 22 February 2010 - 03:43 AM

[D'rek]

Harvester, on 22 February 2010 - 03:43 AM, said:

Hm, that is very interesting indeed. I would like to know the reason why they... or he was erm somehow privileged to attend the chaining.

I guess he showed up and the other assembled Ascendants didn't turn him away...?