[Pilfer]

Urizen, on Apr 26 2009, 09:19 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Apr 25 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

If the Wolves and the Matron are allied, do you suppose that Thelomen Toblakai in the fortress in 7C might make an appearance? Now Toc is the Herald of Death, he could become a champion.

I thought Toc was out as Herald of Death after the events in TTH. Didn't Toc get his final orders from Hood to ride out and marshal the War Gods and then his service as Herald of Death was over and he was back in sevice to Togg and Fanderay.

Personally I would not be suprised if a Herald of War card appears in the deck and Toc occupies it.

You have to feel for Toc; the poor guy can't catch a break.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I wonder if and when he rides out to Togg and Fanderay, they might try and snatch him back from Hood....be interesting.

[Aptorian]

Ain't_It_Just_, on May 2 2009, 05:55 AM, said:

I wonder if and when he rides out to Togg and Fanderay, they might try and snatch him back from Hood....be interesting.

Unless there immediatly turns up a new Lord of Death, Toc is free, he will probably automatically go over to Togg and Fancy unless he perhaps asks for peace.

[HoosierDaddy]

Pilfer, on Apr 29 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Urizen, on Apr 26 2009, 09:19 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Apr 25 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

If the Wolves and the Matron are allied, do you suppose that Thelomen Toblakai in the fortress in 7C might make an appearance? Now Toc is the Herald of Death, he could become a champion.

I thought Toc was out as Herald of Death after the events in TTH. Didn't Toc get his final orders from Hood to ride out and marshal the War Gods and then his service as Herald of Death was over and he was back in sevice to Togg and Fanderay.

Personally I would not be suprised if a Herald of War card appears in the deck and Toc occupies it.

You have to feel for Toc; the poor guy can't catch a break.

Regarding TT in House of Chains. It wasn't him who was made into the champion. It was the spirit of the bull en'karal that the demon possessed to attack Kalam once he was outside of the fortress. The MS of the Grey Shields or Swords, can't remember, in The Bonehunters was a female. Isn't that the "mortal champion" of a god? Secondly she didn't say a word, if I remember correctly.

I get the feeling that that woman is actually housing the en'karal's spirit, after having read the scene a few times.

[Aptorian]

HoosierDaddy, on May 2 2009, 08:22 AM, said:

Pilfer, on Apr 29 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Urizen, on Apr 26 2009, 09:19 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Apr 25 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

If the Wolves and the Matron are allied, do you suppose that Thelomen Toblakai in the fortress in 7C might make an appearance? Now Toc is the Herald of Death, he could become a champion.

I thought Toc was out as Herald of Death after the events in TTH. Didn't Toc get his final orders from Hood to ride out and marshal the War Gods and then his service as Herald of Death was over and he was back in sevice to Togg and Fanderay.

Personally I would not be suprised if a Herald of War card appears in the deck and Toc occupies it.

You have to feel for Toc; the poor guy can't catch a break.

Regarding TT in House of Chains. It wasn't him who was made into the champion. It was the spirit of the bull en'karal that the demon possessed to attack Kalam once he was outside of the fortress. The MS of the Grey Shields or Swords, can't remember, in The Bonehunters was a female. Isn't that the "mortal champion" of a god? Secondly she didn't say a word, if I remember correctly.

I get the feeling that that woman is actually housing the en'karal's spirit, after having read the scene a few times.

The Mortal Sword of the Grey Helms is just that, a Mortal Sword. She's supposed to fight battles on Wu.

The TTT Enkaral was recruited to become the guardian of the Beast Hold/House of War warren/Weird Mhybe Imass Dream Scape. I think they are all the same.

[MTS]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with Apt. I think the Mortal Sword of the Grey Helms and the Mortal Sword of the Beast Hold/House of War are two different positions. Besides, isn't Deadhouse Gates concurrent with MoI? How would the en'karal spirit make its way across the Seeker's Deep, inhabit this woman and then join the Grey Helms in time?

EDIT: Sorry, the TT en'karal was in HoC. My bad. Still, it seems fairly improbable, considering the distances.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 02 May 2009 - 07:33 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 2 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm in agreement with Apt. I think the Mortal Sword of the Grey Helms and the Mortal Sword of the Beast Hold/House of War are two different positions. Besides, isn't Deadhouse Gates concurrent with MoI? How would the en'karal spirit make its way across the Seeker's Deep, inhabit this woman and then join the Grey Helms in time?

EDIT: Sorry, the TT en'karal was in HoC. My bad. Still, it seems fairly improbable, considering the distances.

Warren travel?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I agree, I doubt Krughava is the TTT champion. I'm sure the Perish would've noticed.

Well, we'll know if Toc meets her, I reckon.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I really hope that meeting(if it happens) doesn't become a "I'm T&F true MS you're just an imposer" squabble. Oh well, at least maybe we'll find out why the Wolves have two MS, d, SA and see if it is confirmed that it is because they are two gods. Personally, I believe it is more than that.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 03 May 2009 - 12:04 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

After re-reading the scene in TBH, I disagree with my theory. Something is still odd about the whole thing though.

[Blacksox]

Aptorian, on May 2 2009, 06:17 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on May 2 2009, 05:55 AM, said:

I wonder if and when he rides out to Togg and Fanderay, they might try and snatch him back from Hood....be interesting.

Unless there immediatly turns up a new Lord of Death, Toc is free, he will probably automatically go over to Togg and Fancy unless he perhaps asks for peace.

I would not be surprised if Toc became the new lord of death.

[amphibian]

Blacksox, on May 3 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

I would not be surprised if Toc became the new lord of death.

It's not often that someone on here truly comes up with a Crazy Theory That Just Might Work. Bravo.

I don't think it's likely though. The presentation of Toc's character is not of someone who is fitted for command over something like Death itself. Erikson's thrown us bigger curves before though.

[MTS]

Well, neither does Hood, really. I mean, he's a sneaky bastard and all, but, like all Jaghut, he is extremely apathetic and hates his "job". So would Toc, I think. Besides, is there all that much to being the Lord of Death? Herd a few souls through the gates, cock up some crazy schemes with Shadowthrone and hate the world. Sounds fairly straightforward to me. And you can mess around with death! Who wouldn't want that?

Seriously though, I don't think Toc is god-material. He's too...human I guess, and has had enough. He doesn't seem to me to be a natural leader either, at least as much of a leader as is needed to be the Lord of Death. Besides, wouldn't they want someone a litle more...experienced in the role? It seems fairly important to hand over to someone who has, relatively, little experience in what it means to hold power. Doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, SE's thrown bigger curveballs, as you said, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 May 2009 - 05:07 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Re: Hood and succesor... let me give this a run:

The story with the Jaghut tells us the souls go where they think they are going to go, and have the ability (in the most extreme), to change that. How many people know Hood is dead? Not many really, other than those already dead. So... souls expecting to go through Hood's gate... will probably still go through the Gate. Does that open up Hood's ex-realm to more... human/sentient's belief based change? Probably. But, what's it matter? A God of Death who is of a race nearly extinct is fairly strange, yes? Why not a more apropos head of death, if one at all?

I remain convinced that the Redeemer will have some affect on this situation, simply because of his role. But, that doesn't have to happen. A Pantheon would seek replacement, I guess if it was absolutely necessary. But... is this an absolutely necessary case? What did Hood really do, beside act like a God in pantheon affairs and occasionally meet certain people at the gate? Not a whole lot in his official role.

[MTS]

That we know of. He did a hell of a lot in Wu, acting as Lord of Death. Like the TtH blurb says, Hood was involved in almost every Ascendant-run scheme we've come across, along with Shadowthrone. How do we know his interests in this? We don't. maybe his actions benefited the realm of Death in some way. Who knows. His absence will be noticeable, though. Maybe not among the rabble, which is what your main point is addressing, but the priests of Hood will certainly find out, and from there it is only a short step to the masses discovering Hood is dead. I expect massive repurcussions from his death. However, he's freed from Dragnipur, is he not?

I agree, it's a bit weird to have an almost-extinct race commanding Death, but perhaps that is what is needed - an acute experience of the nature of Death itself. Although I guess it's not so believable. The Jaghut fought againt Death itself, so why would a Jaghut end up commanding it? It doesn't make much sense, unless Hood was a powerful Ascendant beforehand, fought, died and then rose to prominence in the House of Death, which seems a little unbelieveable. Then again, stranger things have happened.

[HoosierDaddy]

Nice point about the priests. But... how many powerful figures like that would willingly inform people of the lack of their power, if it occurred? Oh, somebody surely would, but perhaps it is simply my cynicism saying that the mortal priests would keep it a secret to prolong their importance.

[MTS]

I see your point. Hardly cynical though; there's definitely precedent for corrupt priesthoods twisting the truth for temporal gain. Just look at world religions today. I seriously doubt that the Bible or the Qu'ran, for instance, are written today the way they were written originally 1500 or so years ago. There's no way there would not be a little tampering. Just think of the all the Gospels that were rejected for entry into the Bible for not preaching the right message. So I would be disappointed if SE did not explore that aspect if/when the priests find out.

What about rituals/practices that rely on Hood's power, though? Perhaps a priest does not know of Hood's demise, and tries to draw on his power during a demonstration in front of a crowd? He/she may not mean to inform the masses, but it would happen regardless. I simply can't see it staying a secret. He's too unimportant a figure for his demise to be unnoticed.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 May 2009 - 05:51 AM

[Dolorous Menhir]

It is not the nature of SE's world that only the priests of that god would know of his demise. It will be predicted and observed in the Deck, mages who use Hood's Warren would undoubtedly know, etc. I do not believe a coverup by Hood's followers is either likely to happen, or likely to be an important plot point. Especially since the action of the book has long left regions where the cult of Hood is important.

[MTS]

Dolorous Menhir, on May 4 2009, 11:05 PM, said:

It is not the nature of SE's world that only the priests of that god would know of his demise. It will be predicted and observed in the Deck, mages who use Hood's Warren would undoubtedly know, etc. I do not believe a coverup by Hood's followers is either likely to happen, or likely to be an important plot point. Especially since the action of the book has long left regions where the cult of Hood is important.

Me neither really. It's just fun to speculate. Good point about the mages and Deck users too. Have imaginary rep.

One crazy theory I have just recently stumbled upon: Do you think there's any connection between the NO and the K'Chain Che'Malle? It seems as though both have had a hand in Icarium's shaping, the NOs setting him up with watchers and manipulating him and the K'Chain gifting him with the best mechanical knowledge. So, I got to thinking, maybe they're related somehow? No basis in fact, just idly musing by the way.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 04 May 2009 - 01:23 PM

[dawnkiller]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

I agree, it's a bit weird to have an almost-extinct race commanding Death, but perhaps that is what is needed - an acute experience of the nature of Death itself. Although I guess it's not so believable. The Jaghut fought againt Death itself, so why would a Jaghut end up commanding it? It doesn't make much sense, unless Hood was a powerful Ascendant beforehand, fought, died and then rose to prominence in the House of Death, which seems a little unbelieveable. Then again, stranger things have happened.

I took Hood's role to have been assumed by dint of the fact he was one of the few that fought for death to remain as a part of the world. SE's very good about not making every individual in his races uniform in their beliefs. Some Imass disagreed with the Ritual, for example.

I think Hood's Realm is now free to whoever gets there first and has the power to keep it -- Kellanved and Dancer basically ended up with the then-masterless Shadow because they walked into Deadhouse and it was first come, first serve (I think this was speculated in the beginning of MoI by Silverfox). The obvious successor, at least based on candidates we know of, is Rallick and/or Vorcan, which probably means it won't be. : )

As for what happens to Toc, eesh. That is just a guy with no luck whatsoever. Interesting to see what happens, though -- in RG, Hood met him not just because of Toc's repeated death-dodging, but because he had claim over Toc's soul predating the Wolves'. The Wolves, however, still had a claw in him, because Toc's eye didn't make it across with him. I think that, with Hood gone, his claim over Toc (pledged to Hood by his father -- man, what was that, a fad? Dassem's daughter, Dunsparrow, Toc . . .) is now dissolved, and he's gone to the Wolves. Which, when you think about it, is also a pretty high irony-placement. He's linked to the House of War, and by his own admission he stopped being a soldier around the fourteenth time the Matron crushed his ribcage.