Malazan Empire: Dust of Dreams - PROLOGUE DISCUSSION - Malazan Empire

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#361 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 01:30 PM

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

One crazy theory I have just recently stumbled upon: Do you think there's any connection between the NO and the K'Chain Che'Malle? It seems as though both have had a hand in Icarium's shaping, the NOs setting him up with watchers and manipulating him and the K'Chain gifting him with the best mechanical knowledge. So, I got to thinking, maybe they're related somehow? No basis in fact, just idly musing by the way.


The Nameless Ones' connection is to the Azath. I don't see any reason to link the Azath with the KCCM, but at the same time I can't rule it out. But it seems unlikely.
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#362 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 05:21 PM

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 01:51 AM, said:

I see your point. Hardly cynical though; there's definitely precedent for corrupt priesthoods twisting the truth for temporal gain. Just look at world religions today. I seriously doubt that the Bible or the Qu'ran, for instance, are written today the way they were written originally 1500 or so years ago. There's no way there would not be a little tampering. Just think of the all the Gospels that were rejected for entry into the Bible for not preaching the right message. So I would be disappointed if SE did not explore that aspect if/when the priests find out.

Muslims make it a sticking point to write the Qur'an exactly as it was first codified - generally in suras arranged in order from longest to shortest. Now, where the ambiguity comes in is in the interpretation of each sura and the various hadiths. Many blindly follow whatever the imam says - which has led to the prolific spread of Wahabbism, among other stranger flavors of Islam.

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What about rituals/practices that rely on Hood's power, though? Perhaps a priest does not know of Hood's demise, and tries to draw on his power during a demonstration in front of a crowd? He/she may not mean to inform the masses, but it would happen regardless. I simply can't see it staying a secret. He's too unimportant a figure for his demise to be unnoticed.

I would think that anyone who draws upon Hood for power would know the instant of the god's death.
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#363 User is offline   Blacksox 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 05:29 PM

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 06:06 AM, said:

Well, neither does Hood, really. I mean, he's a sneaky bastard and all, but, like all Jaghut, he is extremely apathetic and hates his "job". So would Toc, I think. Besides, is there all that much to being the Lord of Death? Herd a few souls through the gates, cock up some crazy schemes with Shadowthrone and hate the world. Sounds fairly straightforward to me. And you can mess around with death! Who wouldn't want that?

Seriously though, I don't think Toc is god-material. He's too...human I guess, and has had enough. He doesn't seem to me to be a natural leader either, at least as much of a leader as is needed to be the Lord of Death. Besides, wouldn't they want someone a litle more...experienced in the role? It seems fairly important to hand over to someone who has, relatively, little experience in what it means to hold power. Doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, SE's thrown bigger curveballs, as you said, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.


My top candidates as Hoods replacement are.

Kallor - Of course we would probaly love to beat his curse and assume the mantle of godhood.

Karsa- Seems like various powers have been grooming him since day one. Many mentions of Karsa relating him to Hood. Also has a lot of experience dragging around bound souls. Has been compared in the past to a possible competitor to Hood. He would certainly detest the idea of the position and openly refuse it, maybe he is named the unwilling god of death and poor Toc has to do all the administrative because Karsa to busy reaping the slaughter.

Kalam - Has been showing up as the herald of death ever since DG. Recently Fiddlers reading had him going from herald to obelisk. Wonder what that means for him? nd also the Azath has him and they are known for making that choice. Is it part of some deal Shadowthrone made, him putting Kalam in the Azath, perhaps a replacement for Hood.

And my top two.

Toc - It would just seem ironic and appropriate. Sure he is probably not willing or the seeming perefect candidtae but those factors don't really seem to deciding factor in Wu. And from his interactions involving Hood I can see Hood as arranging it as a kind of payback. You know the ole I hope you have a kids just like you someday thing.


Kettle- Perfect fit in many ways. She has been undead. She was used in the creation of a house of the Azath in an area of the world where there has not been a lord of death. Makes sense to me the new house maybe a new deadhouse. There is a lot of behind the scenes plotting that would lead you to believe she maybe created for that sole purpose.
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#364 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 06:24 PM

Toc would certainly be the "experience" candidate.
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#365 User is offline   T'renn 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

Somehow I like kettle more for the candidate- I mean the girl housed the finnest(?, not sure) which became the Hold of Death
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#366 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 10:41 PM

View PostImperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on May 5 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

Somehow I like kettle more for the candidate- I mean the girl housed the finnest(?, not sure) which became the Hold of Death


According to the re-read of RG I just finished, Kettle was the "seed" of the Azath house that died in Letheras -- the Finnest was actually the flint knife Gothos gave Ushul Pral/Onrack's wacky lovechild. It was being joined with the Finnest (ie having it shoved into her sternum) that enabled the Azath to form in that dying pocket of Tellann in Omotose Phellack, which rooted the dreamworld and made it "real".

That whole Kettle thing was damned confusing by itself (Seed of an Azath in the body of a dead human child that became alive with apparently a Forkul Assail soul and . . . um, okay . . .), but I do rather like her as a candidate for, if not a god of death, then at least a Keeper like Raest. Her story didn't seem quite finished.
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#367 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 05 May 2009 - 11:32 PM

View PostBlacksox, on May 5 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 06:06 AM, said:

Well, neither does Hood, really. I mean, he's a sneaky bastard and all, but, like all Jaghut, he is extremely apathetic and hates his "job". So would Toc, I think. Besides, is there all that much to being the Lord of Death? Herd a few souls through the gates, cock up some crazy schemes with Shadowthrone and hate the world. Sounds fairly straightforward to me. And you can mess around with death! Who wouldn't want that?

Seriously though, I don't think Toc is god-material. He's too...human I guess, and has had enough. He doesn't seem to me to be a natural leader either, at least as much of a leader as is needed to be the Lord of Death. Besides, wouldn't they want someone a litle more...experienced in the role? It seems fairly important to hand over to someone who has, relatively, little experience in what it means to hold power. Doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, SE's thrown bigger curveballs, as you said, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.


My top candidates as Hoods replacement are.

Kallor - Of course we would probaly love to beat his curse and assume the mantle of godhood.

Karsa- Seems like various powers have been grooming him since day one. Many mentions of Karsa relating him to Hood. Also has a lot of experience dragging around bound souls. Has been compared in the past to a possible competitor to Hood. He would certainly detest the idea of the position and openly refuse it, maybe he is named the unwilling god of death and poor Toc has to do all the administrative because Karsa to busy reaping the slaughter.

Kalam - Has been showing up as the herald of death ever since DG. Recently Fiddlers reading had him going from herald to obelisk. Wonder what that means for him? nd also the Azath has him and they are known for making that choice. Is it part of some deal Shadowthrone made, him putting Kalam in the Azath, perhaps a replacement for Hood.

And my top two.

Toc - It would just seem ironic and appropriate. Sure he is probably not willing or the seeming perefect candidtae but those factors don't really seem to deciding factor in Wu. And from his interactions involving Hood I can see Hood as arranging it as a kind of payback. You know the ole I hope you have a kids just like you someday thing.


Kettle- Perfect fit in many ways. She has been undead. She was used in the creation of a house of the Azath in an area of the world where there has not been a lord of death. Makes sense to me the new house maybe a new deadhouse. There is a lot of behind the scenes plotting that would lead you to believe she maybe created for that sole purpose.


dassem doesn't get a nod? the lord of tragedy would be well placed, aspect wise, to assume the mantle of lord of death i should think. never mind that dassem was already in the high house at one point
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#368 User is offline   Blacksox 

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:13 AM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on May 6 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

View PostBlacksox, on May 5 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

View PostMappo's Travelling Sack, on May 4 2009, 06:06 AM, said:

Well, neither does Hood, really. I mean, he's a sneaky bastard and all, but, like all Jaghut, he is extremely apathetic and hates his "job". So would Toc, I think. Besides, is there all that much to being the Lord of Death? Herd a few souls through the gates, cock up some crazy schemes with Shadowthrone and hate the world. Sounds fairly straightforward to me. And you can mess around with death! Who wouldn't want that?

Seriously though, I don't think Toc is god-material. He's too...human I guess, and has had enough. He doesn't seem to me to be a natural leader either, at least as much of a leader as is needed to be the Lord of Death. Besides, wouldn't they want someone a litle more...experienced in the role? It seems fairly important to hand over to someone who has, relatively, little experience in what it means to hold power. Doesn't make much sense to me. Then again, SE's thrown bigger curveballs, as you said, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.


My top candidates as Hoods replacement are.

Kallor - Of course we would probaly love to beat his curse and assume the mantle of godhood.

Karsa- Seems like various powers have been grooming him since day one. Many mentions of Karsa relating him to Hood. Also has a lot of experience dragging around bound souls. Has been compared in the past to a possible competitor to Hood. He would certainly detest the idea of the position and openly refuse it, maybe he is named the unwilling god of death and poor Toc has to do all the administrative because Karsa to busy reaping the slaughter.

Kalam - Has been showing up as the herald of death ever since DG. Recently Fiddlers reading had him going from herald to obelisk. Wonder what that means for him? nd also the Azath has him and they are known for making that choice. Is it part of some deal Shadowthrone made, him putting Kalam in the Azath, perhaps a replacement for Hood.

And my top two.

Toc - It would just seem ironic and appropriate. Sure he is probably not willing or the seeming perefect candidtae but those factors don't really seem to deciding factor in Wu. And from his interactions involving Hood I can see Hood as arranging it as a kind of payback. You know the ole I hope you have a kids just like you someday thing.


Kettle- Perfect fit in many ways. She has been undead. She was used in the creation of a house of the Azath in an area of the world where there has not been a lord of death. Makes sense to me the new house maybe a new deadhouse. There is a lot of behind the scenes plotting that would lead you to believe she maybe created for that sole purpose.


dassem doesn't get a nod? the lord of tragedy would be well placed, aspect wise, to assume the mantle of lord of death i should think. never mind that dassem was already in the high house at one point


Would be kind of fitting for the house to be forced on Dassem. Might make him more understanding of Hoods position.
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#369 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 09 May 2009 - 10:55 AM

True, and it follows the theme of "unwilling death god", as Hood was quite unwilling in his role.
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#370 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 08:33 AM

I know this isn't relevant to the present conversation, but-

I was re-reading the prologue today and I got to the part with that kid wandering through the forest alone. He thinks of "bone-skinned inquisitors" destrying his city and family. Could these "white skinned inquisitors" be the White Face Barghast?
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#371 User is offline   Skywalker 

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 06:14 AM

There has been much speculation about that AIJ... some think they are the Barghast, others believe they are the Tiste Liosan or the Forkrul Assail. My pet crazy theory is that they are the White Moranth.

The correct answer at this point seems to be "read and find out"
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#372 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 09:07 AM

View PostSkywalker, on May 21 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

There has been much speculation about that AIJ...


I knew it... :doh:
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#373 User is offline   BurnedBridge 

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  Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:00 PM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on May 6 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

View PostBlacksox, on May 5 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

My top candidates as Hoods replacement are.

Kallor - Of course we would probaly love to beat his curse and assume the mantle of godhood.

Karsa- Seems like various powers have been grooming him since day one. Many mentions of Karsa relating him to Hood. Also has a lot of experience dragging around bound souls. Has been compared in the past to a possible competitor to Hood. He would certainly detest the idea of the position and openly refuse it, maybe he is named the unwilling god of death and poor Toc has to do all the administrative because Karsa to busy reaping the slaughter.

Kalam - Has been showing up as the herald of death ever since DG. Recently Fiddlers reading had him going from herald to obelisk. Wonder what that means for him? nd also the Azath has him and they are known for making that choice. Is it part of some deal Shadowthrone made, him putting Kalam in the Azath, perhaps a replacement for Hood.

And my top two.

Toc - It would just seem ironic and appropriate. Sure he is probably not willing or the seeming perefect candidtae but those factors don't really seem to deciding factor in Wu. And from his interactions involving Hood I can see Hood as arranging it as a kind of payback. You know the ole I hope you have a kids just like you someday thing.


Kettle- Perfect fit in many ways. She has been undead. She was used in the creation of a house of the Azath in an area of the world where there has not been a lord of death. Makes sense to me the new house maybe a new deadhouse. There is a lot of behind the scenes plotting that would lead you to believe she maybe created for that sole purpose.


dassem doesn't get a nod? the lord of tragedy would be well placed, aspect wise, to assume the mantle of lord of death i should think. never mind that dassem was already in the high house at one point

*** Warning, if you haven't read Return of the Crimson Guard, this post if full of spoilers ***

Kallor would be an interesting shout, hadn't thought of him. Especially with Skinner's ending in Return of the Crimson Guard - if the position of High King isn't going to him after all he's going to be pretty pissed off. And he does like his grudges

To be honest, my first instinct was that Ammanas would do something sneaky. There was a conversation in which Crokus (sorry, Cutter) says something along the lines of "is he just going to plant his bony arse in every throne and do nothing with the power that accrues".

Aside from that, the obvious ones for me are either Karsa (Mowri fend! Could you imagine it - it'd be hilarious, though) or Dassem.

As regards Dassem, though, I think he's less likely given his role in RotCG. In fact, the timing of the publication of RotCG makes me think that we'll have minimal interaction with the Malazan Empire in the rest of the Book of the Fallen series. So much happened in it that would be felt on Seven Cities, Genebackis, Theft, Stratem, Korel and obviously Quon Tali (as well as the disruptive cameo on Jacuruku and given that the CG would presumably be returning to their kingdom there after the events in the book) that it would be difficult to weave it all into the BotF without a large amount of background.
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#374 User is offline   dawnkiller 

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 09:37 PM

What, no shout-outs for Rallick and/or Vorcan to assume the seats? (Funny as Kallor would be, I can't see Hood's realm going to anyone who actually wanted the job -- Death is not really the aspect you want to give to someone enthusiastic about it...)

Have doubts about Karsa assuming a position in any existing realm. There's an interesting note from the Perish Destriant in tBH that indicates Karsa isn't necessarily Super Speshul regarding his power: '...Toblakai, although in this latter case the nature of the power is . . . uncertain. Of course, there is nothing unusual in that. Among the ancient Toblakai - according to our own histories - there could arise individuals, warriors, who became something of a warren unto themselves. Such power varies in its efficacy, and it would appear that this sort of blood talent was waning in the last generations of the Toblakai civilization, growing weaker.' (tBH p.746) I'm interested in that mention because it implies that, rather than being a stand-out being, Karsa is in fact something of a biological throwback of his race -- his soul-dragging, rather than being a total aberration, is in fact a form of birthright. The thing that makes it special is that it's a sort that hasn't been seen for centuries. That, and, perhaps, the interaction of that and the otataral that's a component in his tribe's bloodoil. (Not that multiple influences can't be exerted over/found in a single individual, ie Heboric, T'amber, Paran, etc, but while the idea of Karsa and his personal warren may present a tasty snack for deities like the CG, I have a feeling the very best they can hope for from it is indigestion.)
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#375 User is offline   Wampyry 

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 02:37 AM

I can only agree with the accolades already given to the prologue. Certainly seems as if DoD is going to be a winner. One thing caught my eye upon a re-read: Kalyth is coming back down Ampelas Rooted after her meeting with the matron. She is not in good spirits because the matron would not release her from her task of finding a Shield Anvil and Mortal Sword:

"But then, Kalyth was about to march to her own death. What did she care of these terrifying creatures? Let the war come. Let the mysterious enemy descend upon Ampelas Rooted and all the other Rooted, and cut down every one of these K'Chain Che'Malle. The world would not miss them."

I thought of the Ampelas Rooted as a beehive shaped manufacturing plant with various levels to perform different functions. Since there is only one matron left what populates the the 'other Rooted'? Is there a massive army of Kell Hunters and Ve'gath soldiers? If so what nurishes them? I doubt it's one crucified dragon unless it's Tiam. Any ideas as to the other Rooted?

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 14 June 2009 - 02:40 AM

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#376 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 15 June 2009 - 02:13 PM

not really relevant to the prologue but does anyone after reading ROTCG think that Cartheron crust is going to appear in lether. He didnt do anything in ROTCCG apart from stock up on moranth munitions and they say so long to the empire or whatever he sed at Cawn. I think hes gonna resupply the 14th as there going into a war against KCCM which means theyll need munitions
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#377 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 19 June 2009 - 12:36 AM

i think it more likely he'll show up in korel in stonewielder. waaaay to long of a sea journey i'd say
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