[Jorram]

Ganymed, on Apr 23 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

Heboric is back, too. ... ... ... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

I have to concur. Why is everyone so happy with Heboric's return? His death was the single best shot of Erikson's ever.

I mean, the dude was far past the Mhybe even in HoC and in tBH he virtually single-handedly ruined the entire book... I dread to think of his unnecessarily prolongated, painstakingly overwritten and mosaically mindless passages in DoD where in the same page-space we could have more KCCM goodness


Other than that, very good prologue the first scene is also a little bit overwritten and protracted but I liked the desolation background.
Then the KCCM and the Icarium parts were honestly priceless

[Aptorian]

I think Heborics return is awesome. Like you say, as a character in Bonehunters, he out-annoyed even Cutter the Emotional Assassin, but his storyline and his potential is very promising. He has "THE HANDS OF DOOOOOOM" one hand ottataral the other jadepower. He is working for Fener but probably also Treach. He knows the jadestatues and so is probably connected with the solution to the CG.

And don't forget, this is the guy who manhandled Karsa Orlong, tossed the big guy like he was just a child in Heborics hands. Heboric could have kicked some serious ass if he'd had the chance.

Of course, I don't think people should expect Heboric to be some major character in the next books, I think he is resigned to a watchers position ala the Ceda in RG. In ghost form, but still strong.

[Urizen]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Apr 25 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

If the Wolves and the Matron are allied, do you suppose that Thelomen Toblakai in the fortress in 7C might make an appearance? Now Toc is the Herald of Death, he could become a champion.

I thought Toc was out as Herald of Death after the events in TTH. Didn't Toc get his final orders from Hood to ride out and marshal the War Gods and then his service as Herald of Death was over and he was back in sevice to Togg and Fanderay.

Personally I would not be suprised if a Herald of War card appears in the deck and Toc occupies it.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Oh right...good work there. Probably means we'll see Toc again.

I didn't like Heboric's internal monologues, but he's a pretty important character and I can't wait to see him use those hands of his to break some shit.

[MTS]

Yeah, hopefully Heboric isn't too wimpy in DoD, and he actually uses his hands to some effect. I have a feeling he's going to be very important in this book, if only as a catalyst for other events, like perhaps the discovery of Fener and the Jade Giants.

Personally, I wanna see more K'Chain vs. dragon action. Maybe a Shi'Gal vs. dragon face-off? That would be awesome, dragons fighting their first-born. Kind of reminiscent of the Titanomachy. Also, if the K'Chain Che'Malle/Nah'Ruk are out crucifying all these dragons, where are they getting all the Blackwood from? From what we've seen, they mainly use metal in their constructs, and the Edur and Teblor are the only ones we know with access to Blackwood. Blackwood in any sort of quantity anyway; I think Phyrlis may have been made of Blackwood, I'm not sure.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 27 April 2009 - 08:05 AM

[Aptorian]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Apr 27 2009, 10:04 AM, said:

Yeah, hopefully Heboric isn't too wimpy in DoD, and he actually uses his hands to some effect. I have a feeling he's going to be very important in this book, if only as a catalyst for other events, like perhaps the discovery of Fener and the Jade Giants.

I've been worried for the last couple of books that Erikson was going to pull something silly like having a "SUPER SAYIAN SHIELD ANVIL" just soak up all the CGs pain and in that way crush the god. The fact that Itkovian turned into a god shield anvil and that Heboric is now returning, makes me worry this will actually happen.

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Apr 27 2009, 10:04 AM, said:

Also, if the K'Chain Che'Malle/Nah'Ruk are out crucifying all these dragons, where are they getting all the Blackwood from? From what we've seen, they mainly use metal in their constructs, and the Edur and Teblor are the only ones we know with access to Blackwood. Blackwood in any sort of quantity anyway; I think Phyrlis may have been made of Blackwood, I'm not sure.

All these dragons? We know of two, of which one of them was more likely crucified by the Edur... that's not a lot

Anyway, Blackwood isn't necessarily as rare as you might think. The Tiste races spread all over Wu bringing with them their culture and, apparently, also some of their fauna. It's not like Blackwood only exists inside small enclosures closely guarded by crack teams of Edur gardeners. Hell, for all we know, the KCCM have their own forests.

[MTS]

Somehow I don't think SE will cop out like that - it's too much of a happy ending, and would be a huge deus ex machina, something which I don't think he could stomach in the final chapters of this series.

Two dargons? I thought there was Sorrit, the OD and that one we see in the DoD prologue, which is three. But I'm assuming there are more crucified dragons than the ones we have seen so far. Plus there's all those dead dragons in SD who were killed by god knows who (if they were killed at all).

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 27 April 2009 - 08:52 AM

[Aptorian]

I admit that my memory of Iccy and Mappo's adventure in the Skykeep is a bit fuzzy, but I'm sure Iccy states that the cruxifiction is not done by KCCM. More likely Edur. Maybe Scabby, maybe some body else entirely.

The OD is supposedly chained by Dragons. There was tracks in the dust that looked like dragon claws and there was a stone or something with the names of those that chained it.

The last dragon was in the prologue and that one does indeed seem to be used by the Nahruk for some purpose. Another argument for the OD not being chained by the KCCM is that it's not like the KCCM are getting anything out of it. It's not being tapped. Better just to kill it then.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian, on Apr 27 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

It's not like Blackwood only exists inside small enclosures closely guarded by crack teams of Edur gardeners.

This mental image is awesome. Imaginary Rep to you Apt.

You think the Shi'gai will try to recruit from amongst the Eleint? Seek kin in this war or some crap like that.

[Aptorian]

Dragons are not to be trusted, I don't think anyone would want to make a deal with them unless they absolutly had to.

Besides, it's not like there's a lot of dragons left. For all we know what's her face... dragon sleeping on top of Black Coral keep... is the only real dragon left in and around wu that is not chained or otherwise incapacitated.

[Sindriss]

Aptorian, on Apr 27 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

Dragons are not to be trusted, I don't think anyone would want to make a deal with them unless they absolutly had to.

Besides, it's not like there's a lot of dragons left. For all we know what's her face... dragon sleeping on top of Black Coral keep... is the only real dragon left in and around wu that is not chained or otherwise incapacitated.

Silaneh I think.

[dawnkiller]

Re: Dragons and their rarity: I dunno, we have Checkov's Dragons in the form of Cuttle and Telorast, right? (I personally want to stomp the little bastards, but they have to be there for a reason...)

Re: The bound dragon in the prologue: I'm starting to wonder if this is the "Consort" from Feather Witch's MT tile readings; the one "writhing on his tree", and now apparently a little off-kilter. I'm not entirely convinced the Short Tail staring at it was responsible for its imprisonment, though I find it a sexy theory -- could be one of Erikson's fake-outs. Since Sorrit's death was implied to have not been at the hands of the KCCM, and Icarium stresses he's certain they knew nothing of it, that seems to imply to me that they wouldn't be pleased with the killing. How weird would it be if the dragons had their own "champion" in one of their child-races, like how Mother Dark had Rake? (Also, have been reminded of the hillarious parallels -- MD and Light, and then Rake's romance with Thyr-aspected Silanah. Like mother like son, apparently. Kind of explains Rake's change of position on that relationship...)

Re: Icarium: Apt, I'm now seeing what you were driving at on the other board about K'rul's gift to Icarium -- it seems that Icarium has basically done what K'rul did to the disparate Warrens with the souls of the humans killed by his machine. This might actually be what it feels like to be K'rul in his non-earthbound state; one who contains many, detached. Mockra, at least, is capable of holding entire conversations (at least when you're a fevered-out Seren Pedac).

As for Icarium's aparant craziness and what it might mean regarding QB, which I think was referenced like 6 pages ago, QB has already experienced a similar ordeal -- I think it was in DG where we're treated to flashbacks of Kalam and QB's joining with the Bridgeburners, and when they find QB, who has integrated all the souls of his colleagues on their way through the desert, he says something to the effect of "We've reached an accord". Clearly Iccy hasn't gotten there yet.

Apt: I also kind of suspect the Shield Anvilling of the CG, but there's also been a running theme of conflict with that. In MoI Silverfox says very early on that sometimes forgiveness "must be denied"; likewise, a huge part of the Redeemer thread in TtH is that there has to be some kind of gatekeeper for Itkovian's Revolving Door of Acceptance, and a hell of a lot of time was spent explaining just why a free pass would be disasterous. It might still feature in some respect, but I'm hoping that it's going to be a lot less simple than just applying one of Itkovian's special soul hugs.

Re: KCCM: Always cool. Interesting that the word "flavor" is used both in regards to the dragons and their "children," the KCCM. I also recall something in RG about how the KCCM's known magics were "something necromantic" (explaining the MOI appearance of undead Kell hunters). Clearly something to do with the body if they can attach blades (and I think Deadsmell pointed out in RG that Hood's warren was just "the other side of Denul"), and perhaps they can even change that as needed...

[Sinisdar Toste]

dawnkiller, on Apr 28 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

As for Icarium's aparant craziness and what it might mean regarding QB, which I think was referenced like 6 pages ago, QB has already experienced a similar ordeal -- I think it was in DG where we're treated to flashbacks of Kalam and QB's joining with the Bridgeburners, and when they find QB, who has integrated all the souls of his colleagues on their way through the desert, he says something to the effect of "We've reached an accord". Clearly Iccy hasn't gotten there yet.

a key difference in these situations is that QB was cognizant and functioning when he absorbed the souls. iccy has had them thrust upon him by a malfunctioning machine and does not even remember that he was once separate from them. i don't think anyone can predict whats gonna happen to him now

[dawnkiller]

Sinisdar Toste, on Apr 28 2009, 08:03 PM, said:

a key difference in these situations is that QB was cognizant and functioning when he absorbed the souls. iccy has had them thrust upon him by a malfunctioning machine and does not even remember that he was once separate from them. i don't think anyone can predict whats gonna happen to him now

Yeah, Icarium's was uncontrolled -- I'm not quite sure what he thought he was doing when he activated the machine, but it probably wasn't that. There's probably a lesson here about turning on stuff you made if you've forgotten the original purpose. Or how you did the wiring.

Makes you wonder about the intention, though. QB's soul-merging was out of necessity (he was physically the strongest). It's possible there was a similar factor at work here. Obviously survival isn't really a problem for the dude, but Icarium has few memories of his own. What he's done here is, effectively, given himself several lifetimes' worth of other people's memories by grafting them into himself. They're still their own distinct entities at this point, but as you said, the prologue stated that Icarium now can't remember a time before he was with them. I can really think of only two things the integration would have given him: past, and continuity. And, even in this flawed form, they both seem to have happened. (And maybe, as some people suggested, a sanity-reboot.)

[Abyss]

or more broadly, what was Iccy's machine ORIGINALLY supposed to do???
And why didn't he ever do it? Or DID he?

- Abyss, or AM i?

[MTS]

That's an interesting thought. Maybe Iccy used it the first time, it broke, sucked out his memories and made him into an amnesiac. Now he's forgotten it's broked, used it and now is even more screwed up, with 7 seven souls residing in his brain.

But that's probably not true because I think it's stated the Azath attack screwed him up like the way he was.

MTS, forgetful.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 29 April 2009 - 03:38 PM

[Abyss]

There's a question of degree - Iccy may have had other issues (aside from the bsics we would expect from his family issues) before he tried to B&E on an Azath House. Our usual assumption is 'Iccy tried to break into an Azath House and was infected with some form of chaos rage virus in the process', but we don't actually know that the Azath 'splosion explains the memory loss AND the rage. His parentage explains the power levels - Gothos is massively powerful even before we get into speculating just who his mom is, and Kilamandaros stil seems to be the contender there, which says even more.

- Abyss, ....also, 'ew'...

[dawnkiller]

I forget, did we ever find out WHY it broke? Age, flaw in the design, etc?

Because it just occurred to me that it may have had something to do with that Letherii guy (Rautos?) digging up and collecting all those seemingly random artifacts. Sure, they weren't the impressive parts, but if you've ever assembled your own furniture you know the sinking sensation of having a few inexplicably extra bolts.

I wonder if there was some connection to all the other machines he built across the globe. If each one was a sort of psychic anchor-point, perhaps the Lether machine was meant to draw everything together . . . the memories of experiences in these places that Icarium had lost, reconstructing his past. Except it didn't work, and instead now he's got LetheriiBrain.

[MTS]

That's true. It all comes down to what the machine does though. It imitates K'rul's actions, surely, but to what extent? We don't even know all that much about K'rul himself, though, and what he did exactly, so it's hard to say. Is K'rul a conscious manifestation of all the warrens? As in, is K'rul the repository, or manifestation of, a Mockra conscience, a Serc conscience, a Thyr conscience, a Telas conscience etc. in the same way QB and Icarium carry multiple souls? And you're right, we have no idea exactly what the "chaos rage virus" entails.

CRAZY THEORY: maybe the NO's f@#$ed up Iccy's machine the first time so that he would become an amnesiac and lose all his memories? That way they could influence him without him knowing he's being manipulated.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 29 April 2009 - 04:10 PM

[Sotgnomen]

Jus tossing something in here.. About the origins of the kiddie-snakes, Redmask has something to say:

"But Redmask knew that this soil was poor, quickly exhausted exept maybe in the old river valleys. The Letherii might manage a generation or two before the topsoil blew away. He had seen the results east of the wastelands, in far Kolanse - an entire civilization tottering on the edge of starvation as desert spread like plague."
RG. p.105.
(I allways like when the social scientist in SE comes out and he makes obvious real-world parallels)
Clearly the kids come from the kolapsing Kolanse, and I would hazard that the fathers and starvers and all that are the broken leftovers of human civilization.