[Kurt Montandon]

 amphibian, on 14 January 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

 Kurt Montandon, on 14 January 2010 - 08:15 PM, said:

I put it down a couple of weeks ago, about three-quarters of the way through, and still haven't picked it back up.

You should finish it. Plow through, if need be.

Trust me on this.

Oh, I know - I'm aware that final events are rather important, and that it'll tie into the main sequence.

It's just ... there are a whole bunch of people I don't care about, doing stuff for reasons we're never told why they care about. The storyline about the secret-heiress girl, for example, beyond merely being cliched as fuckall; I never read anything into her thoughts to explain why she's so fired up about her new mission in life. She just ... throws herself into it. Her motives are completely invisible.

[HoosierDaddy]

Ghelel was like the Myhbe wrapped in Clip, dipped in early Crokus Younghand. Not well characterized and cliched as all get out, while being judgmental to boot. I agree there.

There are some corny story lines, including Kyle, who I also loathed for no apparent reason and want to call Luke Skywalker when I'm reading his story. Ereko's is meandering, meaning Traveler's is meandering as well. Cut out that and Ghelel and you have a masterpiece of action scenes!

[amphibian]

 H.D., on 15 January 2010 - 01:47 AM, said:

Kyle, who I also loathed for no apparent reason

His name is Kyle. We have a person set up to be a new recruit we can sympathize with and his name is Kyle. Ugh. I know a Kyle. We get drunk together every month or so and he tells badass stories about being a Marine and camping and shit, but it's dramatically out of place in the Malazan books. I would have preferred it if his name had been Swift or Fleet or something like that.

And Ghelel sucked. So did Toc the Elder.

[Ulrik]

Damn, who was Ghelel??? I completely forgot who it was (and that sucker Kyle still occupies my memory).

[werewolfv2]

well, having got a bit farther into the book, Im begining to agree abit more with the folks not to happy with the book. it does seem that ICE would have been better served with a few less story lines and a bit more detail on his characters.

the one big thing ive notice comparing to SE is that ICE just doesnt do interesting dialog for the most part.

Oh well, I still find it a decent read and will buy his next offering

[Illuyankas]

 Ulrik, on 15 January 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

Damn, who was Ghelel?

Exactly.

[Abyss]

 amphibian, on 15 January 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

...And Ghelel sucked. So did Toc the Elder.

Toc the Elder subverting an army just by showing up and identifying himself was pretty damn cool.

 Illuyankas, on 15 January 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

 Ulrik, on 15 January 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

Damn, who was Ghelel?

Exactly.

Ghelel... i really suspect ICE is setting her up to be Mallick's replacement a few books down the road, but she was more or less a wallflower commentator for the purposes of the book and far from its stronger characters. her narrative was weak and i can't quite decide if i'm hoping assassin guy is after her for stabby purposes or other reasons.

Ereko was okay. His death scene with Kallor was just weak but i otherwise enjoyed his perspective on Traveller and the bit with the d'riss trap was neat.

I really didn't have a problem with Kyle. He was less annoying than Crockus' unrequited love plot in in GotM and i liked how his more or less innocence prompted the Lost Dudes to break from the Guard.


Temp (along with Braven Tooth and others) were there because Laseen grabbed every veteran she could find to hold together the otherwise green army she had to work with, and Temp was just hanging out on Malaz island staring at the Deadhouse, probably bored. Tho i wouldn't put it past Laseen or Tays to have known of his connection to Dassem and figured if need be Temp could motivate Das' to jump in, as he did.


Were there weak points in the book? Sure. Was it enough to ruin the book? Not even close for me. I liked this book, it was beter than a ton of other books on the market, and i expect ICE will only improve.

- Abyss, did, however, stock up on shampoo after all the lank greasy hair...

[amphibian]

 Abyss, on 15 January 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

Toc the Elder subverting an army just by showing up and identifying himself was pretty damn cool.

He did that and then what? He got stuck trying to take Li Heng. He's a calvary commander, should have been harrying Laseen's advance from the get go.

[Pig Iron]

 Abyss, on 15 January 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

 amphibian, on 15 January 2010 - 04:58 AM, said:

...And Ghelel sucked. So did Toc the Elder.

Toc the Elder subverting an army just by showing up and identifying himself was pretty damn cool.

 Illuyankas, on 15 January 2010 - 06:38 PM, said:

 Ulrik, on 15 January 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

Damn, who was Ghelel?

Exactly.

Ghelel... i really suspect ICE is setting her up to be Mallick's replacement a few books down the road, but she was more or less a wallflower commentator for the purposes of the book and far from its stronger characters. her narrative was weak and i can't quite decide if i'm hoping assassin guy is after her for stabby purposes or other reasons.

Ereko was okay. His death scene with Kallor was just weak but i otherwise enjoyed his perspective on Traveller and the bit with the d'riss trap was neat.

I really didn't have a problem with Kyle. He was less annoying than Crockus' unrequited love plot in in GotM and i liked how his more or less innocence prompted the Lost Dudes to break from the Guard.


Temp (along with Braven Tooth and others) were there because Laseen grabbed every veteran she could find to hold together the otherwise green army she had to work with, and Temp was just hanging out on Malaz island staring at the Deadhouse, probably bored. Tho i wouldn't put it past Laseen or Tays to have known of his connection to Dassem and figured if need be Temp could motivate Das' to jump in, as he did.


Were there weak points in the book? Sure. Was it enough to ruin the book? Not even close for me. I liked this book, it was beter than a ton of other books on the market, and i expect ICE will only improve.

- Abyss, did, however, stock up on shampoo after all the lank greasy hair...

Well said. I think Ghelel might be a future (peacetime) empress, though ICE and SE both like to kill people off after setting them up. Her viewpoint served as an outsider's to the Talian league and some of the events and characters. The intro sequences with Kyle in the Guard and on the tower and boats was really good. You got to see the avowed for the powerful but slightly creepy and fanatic guys they are, and - again - the confusion felt by a newcomer and outsider. Some great mythology unfolding with Osserc and the Elder Warren of Light. Traveller is a great character with both SE and ICE. The battle sequences were superb, with Nait's ("Jumpy") being among the best I've read. Ryllandaras, Tayschrenn, Ahl and Ahl and Ahl, Possum, Braven Tooth, Urko, Silk, and my great favourite herself (may she not be dead except in the SE-sense) Lasseen, what great characters.

[Salt-Man Z]

One thing that bugged the heck out of me: Temp and Temper are the same guy, right? So what's him going by "Temp" in this book, when it's been "Temper" every other time we've seen him?

[HoosierDaddy]

Isn't it only Sweetgrass who calls him Temp? I assume it's a familiarity thing. (I feel that I'm about to quoted into wronganity.)

[Abyss]

I'm pretty sure he calls himself 'Temp'. The name 'Temper' is associated with when he was a member of Dassem's First Sword squad, and in theory he's supposed to be dead, hence the alias. I did get the sense it was somewhat toungue-in-cheek tho, and that he wasn't actually worried about the Claw taking a shot at him. His chats with Sweetgrass/Ferrule were far from 'wanted fugitives' and more like old vets having the time of their lives.

@amphi, i could be wrong but wasn't Li Heng a fairly important goal? Not much use harrying an advancing army if the one you left behind you goes all stabby in your cavalry mounted butt, or your main force is stuck keeping them seiged in.


- Abyss, plays a lot of 'Risk'.

[HoosierDaddy]

In the words of Tayschrenn:

Quote

'It all lies upon Li Heng's walls, as before....'

'Before?'

Tayschrenn nodded, his eyes closed. 'Yes. When the Protectoress fell to Kellanved and Dancer everyone realized that no one was safe from them - all proceeded logically from that.'

[amphibian]

 Abyss, on 15 January 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

@amphi, i could be wrong but wasn't Li Heng a fairly important goal? Not much use harrying an advancing army if the one you left behind you goes all stabby in your cavalry mounted butt, or your main force is stuck keeping them seiged in.

Militarily, it makes no sense to attack Li Heng when the greatest strength of your forces are their mobility and numbers. Yes, it took supreme efforts by the defenders to hold it, but honestly, I found the whole thing contrived essentially to get Ryllandaras free and to pick a convenient location for a battle.

As for a rear attack, disperse your forces, cause insurrections in every city around Li Heng and watch the popular tide surge against Unta. Let the calvary ambush any of the detachments sent against the insurgents and allow Toc and Ameron to do what comes to them best - ride horses and do sneaky stuff.

Look at how Erikson handled the Bonehunters tromping to Shaik's oasis for something comparable. Leoman went out and harried them for a short time because it made sense. Toc the Elder is supposed to be a calvary genius. It should have been apparent - especially after the Old Guard only took Li Heng due to the assassination of the Protectress the last time.

[Urizen]

 amphibian, on 16 January 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 15 January 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

@amphi, i could be wrong but wasn't Li Heng a fairly important goal? Not much use harrying an advancing army if the one you left behind you goes all stabby in your cavalry mounted butt, or your main force is stuck keeping them seiged in.

Militarily, it makes no sense to attack Li Heng when the greatest strength of your forces are their mobility and numbers. Yes, it took supreme efforts by the defenders to hold it, but honestly, I found the whole thing contrived essentially to get Ryllandaras free and to pick a convenient location for a battle.

As for a rear attack, disperse your forces, cause insurrections in every city around Li Heng and watch the popular tide surge against Unta. Let the calvary ambush any of the detachments sent against the insurgents and allow Toc and Ameron to do what comes to them best - ride horses and do sneaky stuff.

Look at how Erikson handled the Bonehunters tromping to Shaik's oasis for something comparable. Leoman went out and harried them for a short time because it made sense. Toc the Elder is supposed to be a calvary genius. It should have been apparent - especially after the Old Guard only took Li Heng due to the assassination of the Protectress the last time.

But the Old Guard did try to take Li Heng through infiltration/assasination first this time around too. They resorted to a "regular" seige/assult after their first attempt failed thanks to Storo and his gang

[Illuyankas]

I normally hate to do this as I'm not a raging grammar nazi but dude, it's cavalry, not calvary.

[K'Chain Bull'shite]

Damn...In his defense, ICE is between a rock and a hard place here. Him and SE worked/played closely on the roleplaying and world-building that resulted in the greatness that is the Malazan universe so he has a perfect right to pursue his writing ambition within that universe. Would he have been published as soon as he was had SE not broken the trail? Maybe not, but that's not ICE's fault - he'd be a fool not to take the opportunity and get started on the path that he obviously loves. Anybody who can muster the discipline to sit down and write for months on end, knowing that they'd be subject to the slings and arrows of every keyboard warrior out there must have a great deal of discipline and love for the material. So give him a break - he's not SE and has to develop his own style. He's been thrown in at the deep end with an established fanbase that is naturally going to rankle at every little departure from SE's approach to the material.

The cost of his first books was a function of the nature of the publisher that was willing to take a risk on him at the time, not his fault. He has a 5 book contract with Transworld now so that's not an issue anymore.

I think Nok was actually really good in a completely different way to SE's work. Admittedly, I was a bit disappointed that more was not revealed about K&D's two-year sojourn but I think it was a solid effort.

With Return, as others have said, I think he was trying to be too much like SE and it didn't come off. It wasn't terrible, but I think it could be characterized as 'muddled'. And a personal pet peeve= Kyle? WTF? Kael, Kale, Kyal - any variation would have been better, but such an obvious modern name just kicks me out of my suspended disbelief and I cannot fathom why he chose to do something like that. Anyway, loads of problems with Return, no question.

I think we'll really be able to take his measure with Stonewielder, since he'll be dealing with a continent we've never visited in depth before, presumably with characters all his own and hopefully play to his own strengths rather than trying to ape SE's style.

If ICE is listening, the one thing that I would try to communicate to him would be to avoid using characters that SE has already introduced as much as is possible because it's guaranteed that the fans will prefer SE's version. For example, Iron Bars in Return just felt wrong, not bad, just wrong. If it had been Black the Elder or another Avowed we had not previously seen on camera, it would have been absolutely fine.

This is why I worry about the Darujhistan novel. So many loved/hated characters in place that have been established by SE and he's never going to do them justice in the eyes of the hardcore fans. I admire the guts but damn...well I hope he pulls it off

[werewolfv2]

Ok, now that I'm done with the book..

The last 1/4 of the story was (imo) the best part. ICE seemed to pull things together well, the action was, though not the best, solidly in the top levels.

ICE did some things poorly but others he did very well.

Some waste of characters like TOC. I mean when he showed up I thought "oh hell ya!!" But he never lived up to his name.

Some other characters did rock though, like Jumpy.

I very much feel this book is worthy of being the the malazan world and is a solid addition to the series.

[D'rek]

 Bre, on 16 January 2010 - 06:41 PM, said:

With Return, as others have said, I think he was trying to be too much like SE and it didn't come off. It wasn't terrible, but I think it could be characterized as 'muddled'. And a personal pet peeve= Kyle? WTF? Kael, Kale, Kyal - any variation would have been better, but such an obvious modern name just kicks me out of my suspended disbelief and I cannot fathom why he chose to do something like that. Anyway, loads of problems with Return, no question.

Well, Tattersail is a real british name... and maybe there are no Kyles in Alaska and he thought it sounded exotic...

 Bre, on 16 January 2010 - 06:41 PM, said:

If ICE is listening, the one thing that I would try to communicate to him would be to avoid using characters that SE has already introduced as much as is possible because it's guaranteed that the fans will prefer SE's version. For example, Iron Bars in Return just felt wrong, not bad, just wrong. If it had been Black the Elder or another Avowed we had not previously seen on camera, it would have been absolutely fine.

This is why I worry about the Darujhistan novel. So many loved/hated characters in place that have been established by SE and he's never going to do them justice in the eyes of the hardcore fans. I admire the guts but damn...well I hope he pulls it off

I don't think he needs to avoid SE-established characters, but based on RotCG I think he may not want to tell things from their perspective. Iron Bars' perspective may have been a bit off, but any of the Old Guards seen from new characters like Jumpy's perspective were spot-on. For the Daru novel it wouldn't be hard for him to have all the established characters appearing from some new citizen's viewpoints.

[Abyss]

Look at what he did with Laseen and then tell me ICE should avoid SE characters.

I liked his Osserc - pretentious and overbearing but not entirely inhuman.

His Shadowthrone wasn't off.

His Dassem and Urko were consistent with what we saw of them in HoC.

Kallor... well, the characterization was on even if the appearance was off.

Topper, Cowl, Blues and a few others were too minor elsewhere to be able to know the difference. Including Toc the Elder, who we had NEVER seen before but many seemed dissappointed by based on their own expectations and little else.

I've posted re Iron bars elsethread.. i didn't have a problem with ICE's depiction, given the situation Ib and co were in.

Nil and Nether... they were more involved and less 'i am a shaman and work in the background' than they were in DG but i could accept their actions as the way they would be having survived the Chain and found themselves fighting to protect the Wickans from extinction.

I think the only one i really took issue with was Hood... the sombre God of Death we had seen til then didn't quite line up with the chat Hood and Dessembrae have at the end.

And I thought Kid Coltaine's appearance was gratuitous, but even that was consistent with what we know of Wickan souls being reborn in children, per Sorno and co.

- Abyss, ...also notes his CG was spot on.