[Sinisdar Toste]

foolio, on Jan 27 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

Quote

Dunno bout the rest, but Silk isn't doing this for the Empire, he is doing it for Li Heng, which is his hometown. He handpicked the squad he was with specifically to get them to Li Heng to help protect the city in case of such an eventuality.

But this was his and his handpicked squads chance to throw off the yolk of the Malazna Empire. He, in affect, fought to keep his beloved city under the thumb of the Malazan empire. This will never make sense to me...

well what do you think the talian league was planning to do once they took li heng? liberate them and return the city to independance? please, silk was choosing the yolk he knew over the yolk he didn't, and maybe hoping that ryllandaras would kill them all

[Angel]

Epiph, on Jan 28 2009, 06:44 AM, said:

It really isn't fair to compare such a sideline character to such a powerhouse. You're comparing apples to oranges. Comparing Kyle and Crokus is more accurate; both are typical "lvl 1" type characters whose only real differences are their proficiencies (a warrior vs a thief) and where they come from (the city vs the plains). And I don't even think that that is a problem...a "lvl 1" type character who has been developed enough by the author can be much more interesting than either Kyle or Crokus, and can be a very effective tool to explore themes of naivety and the leaching away of innocence, both powerful themes.

See... this point here to me is a joke. Everyone is comparing him to Crokus because he is human and young... thats all. But I'm not comparing on race, i'm comparing on the type of character which they are. And yes, Karsa started as a lowly character, sure he was strong and had some dust in him, but he developed throughout the series. He was developed in the first book, so you cannot even use the argument that he's had more book time. The only thing that stopped Kyle from being liked/developed was ICE himself. This is what SE does, he takes chars and develops them. ICE does not. Kyle doesn't develop, he doesn't respond and change with events. His personality, thoughts, feelings and emotions aren't in flux due to what he has been exposed to. He just watches, then sorta shrugs his shoulders. He is not being developed at all. And whilst Karsa may not have been the picture of innocence, he certainly is naive. So you tell me in defined terms why I can't compare them... I'm not seeing a problem, except for their different races.

[Binder of Demons]

I didn't find the book to be as annoying as people seem to in the above posts. While I have some issues with a few of the characters, I can't say i had any real problem with Kyle. As has been pointed out, he is basically ICE's version of Crokus from GotM. The reason i think that comparison is more valid than Kyle/Karsa is more in how the stories were set up.

In GotM we are dropped into the action, things are confused, peoples motivations are unclear, and we need a reasonably simple character to anchor the piece and move the plot along (even down to being used by a tool of a god, Oponn's coin). Job done. And people have relentlessly hated on Crokus' character as well.

Same in RotCG, we get landed into a mess, things among the CrG are confused, peoples motivations are unclear, and a young/naive/innocent character is there to provide a straightforward means to progress that aspect of the story (and is also manipulated by a God,Osserc/sword). Now given the way people here are so down on Kyle's character, you could argue that ICE didn't write him well enough. Like I said though, I didn't find him annoying at all.

The reason i wouldn't compare Kyle to Karsa, is that SE takes a lot more time to introduce the history/traditions of the Toblakai and how that has shaped Karsa before bringing him into contact with the rest of the world of Malaz. And as a result we see how Karsa changes over the course of many years, and many hardships. Sure he is initially naive like Kyle/Crokus, and has his world view dramatically altered but he differs significantly in that he believes he can impose his will on the world despite everything he sees (Kyle/Crokus both have much more modest opinions of themselves, and get swept along by unfolding events).

And speaking of writing style, I seem to remember a lot of people complaining about the change in SE's writing style in giving over so much time to Karsa's development when he did that. So it seems you can't please everybody, and it would be boring if everyone always agreed.

I think the issue I'd have with RotCG is that too much was probably crammed in, in an attempt to have everything unfolding in time with SE's latest works. Certainly some characters could have had more development, but it seems like the exposition of Events was the priority (to lay as much groundwork as possible for his and SE's subsequent novels). I am still hopeful for those future works though.

[Angel]

Oh... so instead of a backstory we get throw away lines like he's from a tribal background that worshipped Father Wind.... again, no development, no past, no intrigue. Nothing. It was lame! A lame attempt at creating a character. Probly so much so that ICE himself thought why am I bothering and just dropped him out.

And yes I agree its crammed. Maybe the problem is that people like Apt are saying that this is his first book, that we should give him time to develop. Yet why then, is he writing like this is just a continuance of Erikson, that there is no gap. He just takes characters and uses them. Thats why I may be so harsh in my judgement, because the way he writes makes it appear as if this is not his first book. As such, it needs to be better.

[foolio]

Quote

QUOTE
Dunno bout the rest, but Silk isn't doing this for the Empire, he is doing it for Li Heng, which is his hometown. He handpicked the squad he was with specifically to get them to Li Heng to help protect the city in case of such an eventuality.


But this was his and his handpicked squads chance to throw off the yolk of the Malazna Empire. He, in affect, fought to keep his beloved city under the thumb of the Malazan empire. This will never make sense to me...



well what do you think the talian league was planning to do once they took li heng? liberate them and return the city to independance? please, silk was choosing the yolk he knew over the yolk he didn't, and maybe hoping that ryllandaras would kill them all

I think that is silly. Talian league would never be as powerful or have as wide of a grasp as the Malazan Empire...And if his plan was to free Ryllandaras all along over dealing with the Talians then thats just Psychopathic. Like I said I will always feel like thats just extremely poor motivational logic, you see through Silks comments how much he hates the Malazan Empire and how much he resents them conquering the city and killing his beloved Queen. You are also told that Ryllandaras' biggest prize and what he really wants is to eat everyone in the city of Li Heng. Doesnt it seem DUMB that this would be your plan?

This post has been edited by foolio: 28 January 2009 - 01:24 PM

[Epiph]

Angel, on Jan 28 2009, 01:57 AM, said:

Epiph, on Jan 28 2009, 06:44 AM, said:

It really isn't fair to compare such a sideline character to such a powerhouse. You're comparing apples to oranges. Comparing Kyle and Crokus is more accurate; both are typical "lvl 1" type characters whose only real differences are their proficiencies (a warrior vs a thief) and where they come from (the city vs the plains). And I don't even think that that is a problem...a "lvl 1" type character who has been developed enough by the author can be much more interesting than either Kyle or Crokus, and can be a very effective tool to explore themes of naivety and the leaching away of innocence, both powerful themes.

See... this point here to me is a joke. Everyone is comparing him to Crokus because he is human and young... thats all. But I'm not comparing on race, i'm comparing on the type of character which they are. And yes, Karsa started as a lowly character, sure he was strong and had some dust in him, but he developed throughout the series. He was developed in the first book, so you cannot even use the argument that he's had more book time. The only thing that stopped Kyle from being liked/developed was ICE himself. This is what SE does, he takes chars and develops them. ICE does not. Kyle doesn't develop, he doesn't respond and change with events. His personality, thoughts, feelings and emotions aren't in flux due to what he has been exposed to. He just watches, then sorta shrugs his shoulders. He is not being developed at all. And whilst Karsa may not have been the picture of innocence, he certainly is naive. So you tell me in defined terms why I can't compare them... I'm not seeing a problem, except for their different races.

Ok, for starters, I agree with your assessment about Kyle. I hated him and his storyline and his little dog, too. But Crokus seemed JUST like that to me in GotM, another first book that is notorious for being...a first novel.

Karsa, as Toblakai in DhG, really didn't interest me. I found him to be a flat, boring barbarian. By contrast, but the time SE wrote him into his FOURTH book, his skills had increased to the point that he could write Karsa as a dynamic interesting character who had a clear development arc. In addition, Karsa has had a) an entire 1/4 of a book devoted to his backstory before we really even got to his present endeavors and relevance to the story, and has since featured prominently in all but one book. So yes, Karsa has been developed, but, not only has he had TIME to be developed, he wasn't developed until SE had three doorstoppers of experience developing characters.

Like I said, I don't disagree with you that Kyle wasn't developed (or even that most of ICE's characters lacked development), but this is his first book, and in SE's first book, he has a similar problem with Crokus and, to a lesser extent, Paran, although I grant that Crokus had, from almost the beginning, a very clear goal that directed his actions, and Paran at least had the semblance of development in GotM (although whether SE actually did a good job with that is debatable; he didn't really get awesome until the end of MoI).

Angel, on Jan 28 2009, 05:51 AM, said:

Maybe the problem is that people like Apt are saying that this is his first book, that we should give him time to develop. Yet why then, is he writing like this is just a continuance of Erikson, that there is no gap. He just takes characters and uses them. Thats why I may be so harsh in my judgement, because the way he writes makes it appear as if this is not his first book. As such, it needs to be better.

To be fair, Erikson started out writing like a continuance of Erikson...which is why the first 150 pages of GotM are so mind-numbingly confusing. He wrote as if we should know what he was talking about. ICE just has the advantage that we DO know what he's talking about, so it's less confusing.

[Lisheo]

RotCG literally was Esslemont's GotM, people seem to forget. It was the first book of the entire lot to be written, although in a different shape than the final publication, we can assume, and so its bound to be a similar style of story to GotM.
Also, it really gets on my goat when people say "Erikson's characters" A great many of Erikson's major characters were actually created by Esslemont in the original RPs and such, including most of the fan favourites, its simply that Erikson's books were published long before ICE's. ICE isn't as practiced a writer yet, but give him time.
There are flaws in the book, but I had to address those two comments, that's all.

[foolio]

Quote

Also, it really gets on my goat when people say "Erikson's characters" A great many of Erikson's major characters were actually created by Esslemont in the original RPs and such, including most of the fan favourites,

I dont care who's characters they are, I just want them to be written consistently. If the only way to achieve this is to for them to stick with them and not flip them back and forth then so be it. What happens when the Darujistan book comes out and Karsa cries and professes his love for Samar Dev, then turns into emotional sap????? Or goes home to let Kallor jump out of a rent to Skewer him without fighting back?

This post has been edited by foolio: 29 January 2009 - 02:14 PM

[Dolorous Menhir]

I find these comparisons to GotM misleading. It has a reputation for difficulty because it's a steep introduction to a fresh world, not because it's more poorly written than DhG and later books. The greater popularity of later SE books (I would argue) stems from them being more complete entries in a story world the reader has become comfortable with.

The criticisms of Esslemont in this thread stem from both a perceived disconnect from SE's established style and character, and a general lower "quality" (writing, story, plot, etc) than the main books. The second issue may get better with time, the first is unlikely to. This is not about an author making a first stab at an unfamiliar world, as in GotM, it's about another author's first major excursion in a world SE has, in our minds, made his own.

[Grief]

Lisheo, on Jan 29 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

Also, it really gets on my goat when people say "Erikson's characters" A great many of Erikson's major characters were actually created by Esslemont in the original RPs and such, including most of the fan favourites.

If you please could you please direct me to some proof of that.
Im sure many of the characters were created by Esslemont it is after all a shared world, but generalisations such as "most" irk me.

[Epiph]

Dolorous Menhir, on Jan 29 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

I find these comparisons to GotM misleading. It has a reputation for difficulty because it's a steep introduction to a fresh world, not because it's more poorly written than DhG and later books. The greater popularity of later SE books (I would argue) stems from them being more complete entries in a story world the reader has become comfortable with.

I would argue that it IS more poorly written than the later books. It's still way better than RotCG, but it's also not as well written as SE's later books.

[Lisheo]

Grief, on Jan 29 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

Lisheo, on Jan 29 2009, 01:33 PM, said:

Also, it really gets on my goat when people say "Erikson's characters" A great many of Erikson's major characters were actually created by Esslemont in the original RPs and such, including most of the fan favourites.

If you please could you please direct me to some proof of that.
Im sure many of the characters were created by Esslemont it is after all a shared world, but generalisations such as "most" irk me.

I believe it was an interview with SE where he explained the basic RPs, but I think it was back on the old board. I'm trying to think of which characters, but I know one of them played Cotillion (I think it was ICE) while Kellanved was a non-player ally. It could be the same interview where he explains where he got the character of Karsa from.
And also, I think it really depends on the characters... Osric in ICE is like a badass Rake, which really makes more sense than Osric in SE, who is too much a slightly more arrogant clone of Rake, but still pretty much the same.
Mallick Rel, I would argue, is the same in both, very well written.
It's only certain characters that change, Iron Bars, Dassem, etc, that change drastically. And you have to expect a bit of that, they ARE two different authors.

DM, GotM was, without a doubt, not as well written as the other books. It was still excellent, but its not on the same level as MT or MoI.

[Grief]

Tbh Osric in ICE kinda just came across as a reckless idiot who didn't think his actions through very well at all. Which was kinda what I expected from some areas, such as Rake speaking of him in BH(I think) and his general arrogance. However, I kinda expected him to be a bit sorta not so stupid about stuff.
He just experiments and sees what happens, rather than think much about it. He comes off as arrogant in both.
Just a bit less thoughtful/more stupid in ICE. Having said that, I was interested in some things in ICE's Osric, such as his consideration on what Rake says, whereas he seems far more opposed to him in SE.

As for Osric in SE, well, he gets very little page time, and gets a bit more in ICE.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well osric is referred to as the 'wild mane of light' is he not? he is like rake but without all the emotional and spritual trauma that rake carries, he has no care for the liosan and acts only for himself. osric himself sums up his attitude to life in the prologue "i do as i please." and so he does, no matter the repercussions. he almost killed himself destroying that azath and i doubt he regrets it one bit

[Apocalypse Now]

Personally I disagree about the Old Guard criticism. I find it quite a relief that finally, some characters in this book don't live up to their legend. Everyone talks about how great everyone is in the Malazan Empire, "FIDDLER THE GREATEST OF ALL SAPPERS DUH DUH DUH" "COLTAINE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST LEGENDS" etc, now, I love the characters I just mentioned, but I'm glad the old guard weren't a series of Dujek and Coltaine badass High Fist clones.

Before this book I always thought of Laseen as a dumb bitch and always wondered how she ascended to the throne, I assumed by trickery and treachery. This book put a whole new light on the matter. I always thought the Claw were just a cheap imitation of Dancer's Talons but I see she really deserves her spot. She was the best and the most skilled out of the old guard and the only one worthy of seizing the throne, I think. Also, she's probably the greatest assassin the empire ever had with the exception of Dancer, and more than likely she would be tough for Dancer to beat.

Also, I agree with what someone said before that no character in this book is dead until we get a description of the body on the ground and confirmation from several characters.

Getting sucked into a vortex of doom usually nothing but a nuisance to characters in these series(Toc the Younger)

The Pit and the Princess girl were really annoying though. The Pit seemed useless and even though the vortex was really cool, I don't think it was worth all the boring pages beforehand. The Princess girl is basically a more annoying version of Felisin because instead of being a nasty bitch like Felisin, she was a rigid bitch with a romantic view of the world and got pissed off at things or people who didn't adhere to her fairytale vision of the world.

[Urizen]

Apocalypse Now, on Feb 1 2009, 07:19 PM, said:

Before this book I always thought of Laseen as a dumb bitch and always wondered how she ascended to the throne, I assumed by trickery and treachery. This book put a whole new light on the matter. I always thought the Claw were just a cheap imitation of Dancer's Talons but I see she really deserves her spot. She was the best and the most skilled out of the old guard and the only one worthy of seizing the throne, I think. Also, she's probably the greatest assassin the empire ever had with the exception of Dancer, and more than likely she would be tough for Dancer to beat.

Nothing in the ROTCG showed me anything to lead me from the belief the Claw are anything but a cheap imitation of Dancer's Talons, good at killing and intimdate "regular" people but when up against the truly powerful and skilled they fall like any common redshirt.

While ROTCG somehow managed to elevate Topper of all people as some sort of almost-equal to Dancer, I don't think Laseen or Topper were anywhere near Dancer. NoK (to me at least) shows that Dancer played in another league than Laseen and Topper. If they were even close they would taken him and Kellanved out..

[Ganymed]

"My thoughts exactly" I thought when I read the first post. Very good criticism in my opinion.

As for the GotM analogy: I wonder if people would have become hooked up with the world of Malaz if RotCG had been the first novel? Hell no? Damn straight. RotCG is significantly inferior to GotM, which may have been all over the place in terms of storyline and writing, but is a work of genius in introducing the reader to a world full of mysteries. RotCG is a rough read too, however it never manages to be as intriguing as SE's debut. In fact it only manages to destroy some of the mysteries.

So, while exclusively regarding writing style you may speak of RotCG as ICE's GotM, but in every other aspect you may not.

PS: Stop bashing GotM, people! I love it, you miserable haters!

[Angel]

You know, whoever his publisher and editor are deserve to be sacked. From the errors in the novel itself, to the writing in general. Don't they read the text before they put it out? This is writing in its most basic form.

[Ganymed]

Angel, on Feb 2 2009, 11:21 AM, said:

This is writing in its most basic form.

You're kidding, right? While I agree that it is no work of genius and in no way comparable to Goethe or Schiller, "writing in its most basic form" it is assuredly not. Even after several minutes of thinking I know not one example of "most basic writing" on the market right now. Even Feist or Goodkind are slightly better than that.

[Angel]

You misinterpreted what I said. It was a statement which carried over from the previous, therefor a reference to the writing process being at its most basic- the editing, the correcting, the fixing of problems etc. So I should probably qualify that my use of the word "writing" was done so in wider capacity then just the words on the page, but the whole process by which a book reaches the shelf and is read.

This post has been edited by Angel: 03 February 2009 - 01:35 AM