[Angel]

Hi all,

I'm newly registered but I've watched this forum for a long time, and forgotten my account name and password just as many times.

I've just finished reading RoTCG and must admit that I enjoyed it- in parts. There did, to me at least, appear to be a great deal of problems with the writing in general, characterisation, plot, conflict resolution etc...

Well these are my thoughts anyway:

I think Esslemont's had a twofold problem. One, he switches characters so quickly that it can often be annoying for the reader to follow through- especially when you come across a favourite character, read 2-3 pages then have to wait another 20. That -is- annoying. Sure its a writing techniqiue but it doesn't work in this novel for one simple reason. And that reason is, ICE has yet to define any of his characters. He introduces his main protagonist, Kyle who we follow for intermitently periods for much of the novel, but he really is nothing more than a side character for the development of the plot as a whole. He isn't really that intregral to it, he is just a witness to events that play out around him (except he has of course, a super powerful sword). He is not defined in any way, apart from his near obsession with Father Wind. And herein lies the problem to me, ICE's main focus is characters that he did not write or develop (he may have created them- I can't be sure of that, but he hasn't done the majority of the writing for them). Every character he introduces lacks motivation, justification for their actions and a reality that the other characters have. Kyle, Erecko, the Lost Brothers... they all really are nothing characters. They don't bring anything with them... they're emotionless, faceless things who I couldn't associate with. I've read multiple times that people hate Kyle and I tihnk its just becaues nobody can understand what he was doing, why he was doing it etc... Poorly justified characters are the bane of any writer. Cause ICE was hellbent on switching characters so readily, so quickly and so often, there just wasn't a chance to attach to him, to understand him and to feel some form of empathy towards him.

If you contrast this with the character of Karsa, you realise how long Erikson spent constructing the character in the begining. We begin to understand him, we understand the way he thinks (to a degree- he is Karsa and unpredictable), we know why he does things and it makes sense to us. Contrasting Kyle and Karsa is like sun and moon in terms of brightness... Kyle is a nothing character whilst Karsa is a central pillar in the Malazaan universe. One was given immense book time, the other was shovelled into the background whilst events rolled on around him.

Which brings me to the next problem. Because you can't attach to the characters you cannot understand their actions... a LOT of events happen that make no sense. Ereko dying to Kallor. Kyle's actions... Damn, half the time I didn't understand who was fighting who or why... I had to keep backtracking and reading to try and get my head round it. Now it really shouldn't be that hard- sure it conveys a sense of the mass of political intrigue going on, it conveys a sense of the complexity of the war and how their is constant shifting... but was it too much? Thats a personal question I suppose.

When Tayschrenn and Laseen died I immediately asked the question- jeez, I wonder how Erikson felt about that? Characters he had been developing for a long time, snuffed out at the end of a book very quickly. Not that I understood either characters actions- especially Tay's when he is just sitting there whilst the Crimson Guard walk through the city and Cowl has a chat to him. You cannot keep peddling the excuse that he is saving himself to be Quick's shaved knuckle... again, I am of the opinion that he is a poorly written character, from both Erikson and ICE. He was painted as the villain twice, then became some sort of save the day hero, then sits and does nothing for a long time whilst all goes to hell. It makes little sense, but then, not much did to me.

What irked me more than anything was the way ICE palmed of his own character creations into the backstory and instead just seemed to randomly introduce a mass of characters from Erikson's side. And he did -not- flesh them out in ANY way. Ameron, Choss, Toc, Topper... they all just seem to have appeared- and it just seems like a total joke. Toc the Elder for example just sitting there all along... I'm reading thinking, well what about your son? Don't care? Don't give a damn anymore? It doesn't make sense to just abandon everything. Back to downplaying his own characters, the biggest is obviously Ereko, who did jack all and just died. Yet for some reason, his existence garnered more interest from the enigmatic Queen of Dreams than any book before (excluding perhaps Leoman's defection). And he is old and has seen so much. And then Kallor who appears out of nowhere just cuts him down. Now again I've read people vainly try to justify the actions, some even suggesting that just because we don't know the reasons, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... Bah- what a joke! You never write something without at least alluding to the reasons why it happens. Thats the problem, there is no allusion at all. It just happens like so many events. Like the busting out at the begining by the Guard, sure that was interesting, but again- totally unjustified, unconnected and just leaves you asking what? why?. I'm all for allusion, even misleading ones, but the complete lack of reasoning behind events points the finger towards a poor writer.

And finally, to who I thought was the worst character of all. Dassem himself. A lot of people speak of how cool he is, how this book really reveals his desire for vengeance. All it revealed was the stupidity of his own actions. He holds Hood accountable for killing his daughter, for taking him from her- yet how many people is he willing to straight out slaughter in the quest for his vengeance. How many fathers, brothers etc? It doesn't reveal his desire, it reveals his hypocrisy and insantiy. He himself is the biggest agent of Hood still- perhaps this is the Tragedy! Surely he has realised now that he cannot meet him the way he keeps doing things. Option B? Kill himself? Sure, he's awesome to read about but again, the justifications are wearing very thin.

Well, thats enough of me biatching about why I didn't like it. In truth I liked a great deal of it- it was intriguing and offered an insight into a great many things. I just wish it could have been written to the SE standard- not the dramatic prose crap that SE offered in TtH, that was terrible, but his traditional style of solid, descriptive writing.

Feel free to argue away with any of this

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I can't rightly comment enough on this book. I gave up on it pretty early, and havent been able to pick it up. I didn't like the 2 dimentional characters which were echoes of the guys from KoN for me. ICEs main protagonists seem rather dull and boring to me. One day I might pick it up and finish it, but I dont like the way he - in my opinion - reduces the quality of some of the better known SE characters. I know the world is a joint creation, but that does not mean they are equal when it comes to telling a story.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

I just wish it could have been written to the SE standard- not the dramatic prose crap that SE offered in TtH, that was terrible, but his traditional style of solid, descriptive writing.

I whole-heartedly second this opinion.

[Urb]

I agree with the original post, but I would also point out that there were some parts in the book that I rather enjoyed. The soldier who becomes a sapper and gets command of his own squad (can't remember his name) was a good read.

--------------------

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

I think Esslemont's had a twofold problem. One, he switches characters so quickly that it can often be annoying for the reader to follow through- especially when you come across a favourite character, read 2-3 pages then have to wait another 20. That -is- annoying.

SE does this as well, and I wish he wouldn't use it so much because it is really annoying. The first part of House of Chains is still my favourite piece of malazan literature.

[Benji]

Personally, I like the skipping around. Gives us a chance to see more of each character. When SE does a big battle, he's constantly jumping around and that's what makes the battle (in my eyes) so epic.

Also, I agree that a lot of ICE's characters were pretty two-dimensional. But then just look at what he did with Laseen. She never got a POV and yet by the end of the book, I feel so much more strongly for her.

[Aptorian]

Let me just start by saying I agree with a lot of your criticism, and yet, not for the same reasons you do. I think your post shows a lot of unfair expectations of Esslemont. Not only is he a new writer, he is also a different one than Erikson.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

I think Esslemont's had a twofold problem. One, he switches characters so quickly that it can often be annoying for the reader to follow through- especially when you come across a favourite character, read 2-3 pages then have to wait another 20. That -is- annoying. Sure its a writing techniqiue but it doesn't work in this novel for one simple reason. And that reason is, ICE has yet to define any of his characters. He introduces his main protagonist, Kyle who we follow for intermitently periods for much of the novel, but he really is nothing more than a side character for the development of the plot as a whole. He isn't really that intregral to it, he is just a witness to events that play out around him (except he has of course, a super powerful sword). He is not defined in any way, apart from his near obsession with Father Wind. And herein lies the problem to me, ICE's main focus is characters that he did not write or develop (he may have created them- I can't be sure of that, but he hasn't done the majority of the writing for them). Every character he introduces lacks motivation, justification for their actions and a reality that the other characters have. Kyle, Erecko, the Lost Brothers... they all really are nothing characters. They don't bring anything with them... they're emotionless, faceless things who I couldn't associate with. I've read multiple times that people hate Kyle and I tihnk its just becaues nobody can understand what he was doing, why he was doing it etc... Poorly justified characters are the bane of any writer. Cause ICE was hellbent on switching characters so readily, so quickly and so often, there just wasn't a chance to attach to him, to understand him and to feel some form of empathy towards him.

I don't agree with this. All the things you accuse Esslemont of, you could easily direct at Erikson as well. It's only that Erikson has had 8 books to further develop these characters and work on his character building.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

If you contrast this with the character of Karsa, you realise how long Erikson spent constructing the character in the begining. We begin to understand him, we understand the way he thinks (to a degree- he is Karsa and unpredictable), we know why he does things and it makes sense to us. Contrasting Kyle and Karsa is like sun and moon in terms of brightness... Kyle is a nothing character whilst Karsa is a central pillar in the Malazaan universe. One was given immense book time, the other was shovelled into the background whilst events rolled on around him.

It's not really fair comparing characters like Kyle or Ereko with Karsa as he's had one fourth of HoC and three other books to develop in.

Kyle is for all intents and purposes Esslemonts Crokus. And as such I think he develops nicely, I just don't like him. He was a useless bastard in my opinion, he smacked too much of the classic farmboy character to me.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

Which brings me to the next problem. Because you can't attach to the characters you cannot understand their actions... a LOT of events happen that make no sense. Ereko dying to Kallor. Kyle's actions... Damn, half the time I didn't understand who was fighting who or why... I had to keep backtracking and reading to try and get my head round it. Now it really shouldn't be that hard- sure it conveys a sense of the mass of political intrigue going on, it conveys a sense of the complexity of the war and how their is constant shifting... but was it too much? Thats a personal question I suppose.

This is true and it is one of my main problems with the book. There's too many things that just happen or happen but have no real connection with the rest of the elements of the book.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

When Tayschrenn and Laseen died I immediately asked the question- jeez, I wonder how Erikson felt about that? Characters he had been developing for a long time, snuffed out at the end of a book very quickly. Not that I understood either characters actions- especially Tay's when he is just sitting there whilst the Crimson Guard walk through the city and Cowl has a chat to him. You cannot keep peddling the excuse that he is saving himself to be Quick's shaved knuckle... again, I am of the opinion that he is a poorly written character, from both Erikson and ICE. He was painted as the villain twice, then became some sort of save the day hero, then sits and does nothing for a long time whilst all goes to hell. It makes little sense, but then, not much did to me.

Tay is not dead, he was struck by a mage and sucked through a big chaotic whirlpool of death... but he is not dead. Nobody is dead before they are described lying dead before you in the book and it is confirmed through several character POVs.

As for your criticism of the character. Well, that's just your opinion, I think a lot of people like him because he is such an enigma. Lots of power but lacking the will or the purpose to alter events that he could be a massive enfluence on. He's like spiderman. With great power comes great resposibility. He would only act when the empire itself became threatened by the vortex of doom.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

What irked me more than anything was the way ICE palmed of his own character creations into the backstory and instead just seemed to randomly introduce a mass of characters from Erikson's side. And he did -not- flesh them out in ANY way. Ameron, Choss, Toc, Topper... they all just seem to have appeared- and it just seems like a total joke. Toc the Elder for example just sitting there all along... I'm reading thinking, well what about your son? Don't care? Don't give a damn anymore? It doesn't make sense to just abandon everything. Back to downplaying his own characters, the biggest is obviously Ereko, who did jack all and just died. Yet for some reason, his existence garnered more interest from the enigmatic Queen of Dreams than any book before (excluding perhaps Leoman's defection). And he is old and has seen so much. And then Kallor who appears out of nowhere just cuts him down. Now again I've read people vainly try to justify the actions, some even suggesting that just because we don't know the reasons, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... Bah- what a joke! You never write something without at least alluding to the reasons why it happens. Thats the problem, there is no allusion at all. It just happens like so many events. Like the busting out at the begining by the Guard, sure that was interesting, but again- totally unjustified, unconnected and just leaves you asking what? why?. I'm all for allusion, even misleading ones, but the complete lack of reasoning behind events points the finger towards a poor writer.

I completely agree, the old guard who's legend seemed so awesome in the Malazan Books turn out to be a bunch of old farts who's time has passed.

Ereko was another major disappointment. He could have been used to drop so much information on the TTT and other Elder people but we get very little, in the end he dies as a big question mark and waste of pages. There is obvioulsy some important connection between Ereko, Deneuth from the prologue, Greymane and Burn but we just never get enough pieces to solve the puzzle.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

And finally, to who I thought was the worst character of all. Dassem himself. A lot of people speak of how cool he is, how this book really reveals his desire for vengeance. All it revealed was the stupidity of his own actions. He holds Hood accountable for killing his daughter, for taking him from her- yet how many people is he willing to straight out slaughter in the quest for his vengeance. How many fathers, brothers etc? It doesn't reveal his desire, it reveals his hypocrisy and insantiy. He himself is the biggest agent of Hood still- perhaps this is the Tragedy! Surely he has realised now that he cannot meet him the way he keeps doing things. Option B? Kill himself? Sure, he's awesome to read about but again, the justifications are wearing very thin.

I think this is again just you're dislike of a character. Dassem is brilliantly realised. In this book he comes off as being mentally disturbed, consumed by a rage he cannot control. That's why he kills the Edur, that's why he nearly goes to war on the entire Mage nation on Assail, etc. Ereko and Kyle certainly senses the insanity that lies skindeep in this man.

I liked Esslemonts Dassem Ultor much more than the less serious fellow we see in TTH.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

Well, thats enough of me biatching about why I didn't like it. In truth I liked a great deal of it- it was intriguing and offered an insight into a great many things. I just wish it could have been written to the SE standard- not the dramatic prose crap that SE offered in TtH, that was terrible, but his traditional style of solid, descriptive writing.

Feel free to argue away with any of this

Erikson has written 8 books, and has a much more dramatic prose, and a crazy obsession with the poetic. I feel that Esslemonts writting is a fresh take on the series. I just thought the execution of the book was flawed and a lot of the choices in storylines should have been dropped... like the 7C mages and the vortex of doom which was really unnecessary.

Someone suggested that RCG was Esslemonts GotM and I fully agree with that idea.

[MTS]

Were Jhest and co. from Assail? I thought they were on Jackuruku at that point.

[teholbeddict]

I do agree with much of what was originally posted. I don't really care for ICE's style of writing and it's not because I have expectations of him being identical to Erikson. Night of Knives was decent as far as I'm concerned, I gave it a bit more allowance than I normally would as it was his first novel. I reall really did not like ROTCG, I felt there was an overall lack of character development. Most of the stories regarding the old guard were totally disappointing, and the jumping allover as stated in the initial post did nothing to help the story along. Because it lacked flow, I found the book very difficult to get into. One of the biggest draw back to this book was that it left me with alot of questions and not in a good way. I was completely confused on some of the happenings in the book as I know many other people on the board were. The whole thing lacked clarity, and focus in my opinion. I don't really think he did justice to the ground work laid by SE. There was alot of build up of the old guard in SE's previous novels and he really fell short for me in when the characters finally appeared. I'm actually not looking forward to ICE's Darujhistan novel as I really like that whole setting and the characters involved. I'm worried he's going to out out something similar in style to ROTCG and ruin the whole of Darujhistan for me! I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that he'll improve as he gets more writing under his belt.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I've been considering making a criticism post like this, and I've got to say the original poster does a great job. There's nothing to dispute in there. This book was simply not very good.

I would also make some more basic criticisms of the writing. There were some extremely clunky and painful sentences in there, to the extent that some lines had to be reread to tease out the meaning from the jumble. Descriptions were repetitive, and there was a chronic overreliance on SE's already existing ideas and conventions.

It would be an interesting exercise to run through and keep a tally of all the situations where

1. A character is humbled by a deeper understanding of their companion
2. Someone freezes with shock at a sudden revelation
3. "Lanky hair"
4. Established personalities are contradicted or diminished by the events of the book
5. New characters are introduced without an attempt to distinguish them
6. Events occur which cannot be easily related to the rest of the story (for example, whoever those Crimson Guard were that escaped from underground, or the actions of Cartheron Crust)
7. A power is revealed which we had no reason to anticipate, but which is extremely convenient for the storyline
8. Character name is a variation on Rel/Rill

edit: Thinking again, criticising the use of SE's ideas is a grey area as we don't know how much creative input ICE had in the first place. But it's safe to say that SE writes about them better.

This post has been edited by Dolorous Menhir: 26 January 2009 - 07:00 PM

[lfex]

Aptorian, on Jan 26 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

I completely agree, the old guard who's legend seemed so awesome in the Malazan Books turn out to be a bunch of old farts who's time has passed.

But that was the whole point of their storyline. The world changed and their stayed behind. Perhaps the strongest reminder that there indeed is such a thing as progress in Malazan world. OTOH, Laseen proves to be far more than in SE books.

Aptorian, on Jan 26 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Kyle is for all intents and purposes Esslemonts Crokus. And as such I think he develops nicely, I just don't like him. He was a useless bastard in my opinion, he smacked too much of the classic farmboy character to me.

I agree. He is typical fantasy callow youth and as such just not very interesting character.

Aptorian, on Jan 26 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Someone suggested that RCG was Esslemonts GotM and I fully agree with that idea.

Very good point. I also don't think it was any worse than GotM - which for me means not brilliant but quite good.

[flea]

I pretty much agree with the criticisms.

One things ICE does very well, however, is write a battle.

[Angel]

Aptorian, on Jan 27 2009, 01:16 AM, said:

Let me just start by saying I agree with a lot of your criticism, and yet, not for the same reasons you do. I think your post shows a lot of unfair expectations of Esslemont. Not only is he a new writer, he is also a different one than Erikson.

It's not really fair comparing characters like Kyle or Ereko with Karsa as he's had one fourth of HoC and three other books to develop in. Kyle is for all intents and purposes Esslemonts Crokus. And as such I think he develops nicely, I just don't like him. He was a useless bastard in my opinion, he smacked too much of the classic farmboy character to me.

I completely agree, the old guard who's legend seemed so awesome in the Malazan Books turn out to be a bunch of old farts who's time has passed.

Ereko was another major disappointment. He could have been used to drop so much information on the TTT and other Elder people but we get very little, in the end he dies as a big question mark and waste of pages. There is obvioulsy some important connection between Ereko, Deneuth from the prologue, Greymane and Burn but we just never get enough pieces to solve the puzzle.

I think this is again just you're dislike of a character. Dassem is brilliantly realised. In this book he comes off as being mentally disturbed, consumed by a rage he cannot control. That's why he kills the Edur, that's why he nearly goes to war on the entire Mage nation on Assail, etc. Ereko and Kyle certainly senses the insanity that lies skindeep in this man. I liked Esslemonts Dassem Ultor much more than the less serious fellow we see in TTH.

Erikson has written 8 books, and has a much more dramatic prose, and a crazy obsession with the poetic. I feel that Esslemonts writting is a fresh take on the series. I just thought the execution of the book was flawed and a lot of the choices in storylines should have been dropped... like the 7C mages and the vortex of doom which was really unnecessary.

Someone suggested that RCG was Esslemonts GotM and I fully agree with that idea.

Sorry to mash all your posts together Apt, but it made it easier to reply to. I'm not sure how to quote/respond quote/respond like you did

Okay, a couple of rebuttals and a couple of additions.

Let me again start by saying that I did enjoy this book, but I'm of the firm belief that it just could have been so much more. It had the potential, the storyline and the characters to be one of the best novels between both writers... I guess my dissatisfaction stems from that fact.

I'm not really trying to bash my way through ICE's novel and abuse it. Why post this then, you may ask? Well seeing as Erikson seems to have at least wandered through this forum, maybe ICE will as well. If he sees a lot of people saying the same thing, maybe he'll make adjustments. We can only hope, right? I do like the fact that a lot of people consider this his GoTM, hopefully ICE can develop to the same extent that Erikson has.

I try to avoid judging characters just from a personal dislike of them. I am only trying to judge them based on the logic and reasoning behind their actions. The reasoning doesn't need to make sense to me, it just needs to actually exist and be realistic for that character. A lot of the time the logic was either completely unfathomable or not their at all. I think it is completely valid to compare Kyle and Karsa... The only thing stopping him from getting the same face time was ICE's writing- nothing else. He could have put another 200 pages into that book and it would have filled it out nicely. I have no idea what restrictions were placed upon his writing of the novel, but it would have been nicer to have his characters developed more... flashbacks into past events which allow the characters current situation to be understood etc etc... And this is not just Kyle, but people would have loved more flashbacks from some of the guard, Shimmer, or Ereko himself.

And contrary to what you said, I love the character of Dassem. He's awesome, cool and kicks more butt than anyone. I'm just starting to find him as I said, hypocritical and insane.

I still enjoyed reading the book. I suppose the GoTM analogy is what we're all hoping for- that he only gets better from here

[Cowl's Disciple]

Having read this book after Toll The Hounds I was relieved that the plot kept moving and was blessedly free of narration from Kruppe.

OP makes some good points about Kyle although I liked his character, hopefully it'll be more developed in future books?

[foolio]

I was also going to write a piece like this but dont think I could have done so as clearly as the OP. While there were some positive parts of this book, all told I was dissapointed with it.

Quote

What irked me more than anything was the way ICE palmed of his own character creations into the backstory and instead just seemed to randomly introduce a mass of characters from Erikson's side. And he did -not- flesh them out in ANY way. Ameron, Choss, Toc, Topper... they all just seem to have appeared- and it just seems like a total joke. Toc the Elder for example just sitting there all along... I'm reading thinking, well what about your son? Don't care? Don't give a damn anymore? It doesn't make sense to just abandon everything. Back to downplaying his own characters, the biggest is obviously Ereko, who did jack all and just died. Yet for some reason, his existence garnered more interest from the enigmatic Queen of Dreams than any book before (excluding perhaps Leoman's defection). And he is old and has seen so much. And then Kallor who appears out of nowhere just cuts him down. Now again I've read people vainly try to justify the actions, some even suggesting that just because we don't know the reasons, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... Bah- what a joke!

I could not agree more. I was really bothered by how the old guard were written. My biggest want in reading fantasy is an interesting story followed by consistency with motivations and characters. I dont likle when the rules change to make a plot line more convenient. It was clear that ICE intention was to surprise the reader with Laseen being the smartest, baddest, most omnipotent bare handed killer to ever walk the face of the earth. And he used the old guard to prove this. I thought it seemed inconsistent with everything we had seen and read about Surly and everything we had seen and read about the old guard. Thats not a twist , thats inconsistent writing...I am bothered that ICE will be ending story lines from other characters from Erikson in the Dajuristan book. I realy wish they each would stick with their own story lines. That way if you choose not to read ICE you will not miss a main plot of the Erikson series.


I also had a massive problem with motivations in this book. I felt like they could not have been any more random. Why is Silk, who seems to hate the Malazan Empire , so loyal to said Empire? Why are Temp and Ferrule helping the same empress that tried to treacherously murder them? Why bring Dasseem into their insane fight to help Surly, this seeems to be the greatest slap in the face anyone could manage..."we know she tried to kill you and us, Dasseem, but now we are going to guilt you into helping her maintain her ruthless grip on power, even though revolt is in the air"...Why does Ullen sit like a bump on a log until "surrendering"(I mean who surrenders to someone as ruthless and cruel as Surly, ever heard of retreating, regrouping, to fight another day) when he is fighting against Surly , then turns into Robert E Lee generaling forces against the guard? Why does Ereko give Kallor the satisfaction of killing him? If I wanted to die , I damn sure wouldnt let the most evil man alive get satisfaction from being able to parade around saying "I exterminated you and your race, hoorah." I could go on and on but will spare you anymore of my half assed thoughts and run on sentences...



I feel like I need to write something possitive. The jumping around really did not bother me...

This post has been edited by foolio: 27 January 2009 - 01:52 PM

[LadyMTL]

(I put a spoiler box in here, just to be on the safe side).

I agree and disagree with a lot of what has been said. The jumping around aspect didn't bother me that much, I've read a lot of books where people wander in and out of the plot apparently at will, . I will agree that a lot of the characters in Guard felt a bit "tacked on" but Kyle didn't get on my nerves that much. He did come off as a bit of a stereotypical innocent hero type (as Apt so aptly pointed out) but I assume he'll have a part to play in some of the later stories.

What actually shocked me the most was

Spoiler

Laseen's death.

I would guess that Esslemont got SE's ok before proceeding but in my mind such a major plot development would have made more sense being written in one of SE's books. Basically, if I hadn't picked up Guard (and I almost didn't) then I never would have known about it?? That's a bit weird to me. Oh, and I wish both SE and Esselmont would permanently banish the word "actinic" from their vocab. Pick up a thesaurus, already!

All said, though, I actually preferred Guard to Night of Knives. It felt like it was more thought out, despite its flaws, and it read much more like an SE book than Knives did. I'll definitely pick up Esselmont's next offering, just because I hope he'll get better with each passing novel. And I don't want to miss any big developments, hehehe.

[Blend]

foolio, on Jan 27 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

I also had a massive problem with motivations in this book. I felt like they could not have been any more random. Why is Silk, who seems to hate the Malazan Empire , so loyal to said Empire?

Dunno bout the rest, but Silk isn't doing this for the Empire, he is doing it for Li Heng, which is his hometown. He handpicked the squad he was with specifically to get them to Li Heng to help protect the city in case of such an eventuality.

[Epiph]

I mostly agree with the OP, but I had a couple points.

Angel, on Jan 26 2009, 04:01 AM, said:

And that reason is, ICE has yet to define any of his characters.

I totally agree, but I don't think it's because ICE switches POVs so often. It is either because he didn't develop his characters enough that he had an understanding of who they are, or he did have a clear understanding of who they were, but simply failed to communicate that. Either way, it's something he really needs to work on.

Quote

If you contrast this with the character of Karsa, you realise how long Erikson spent constructing the character in the begining. We begin to understand him, we understand the way he thinks (to a degree- he is Karsa and unpredictable), we know why he does things and it makes sense to us. Contrasting Kyle and Karsa is like sun and moon in terms of brightness... Kyle is a nothing character whilst Karsa is a central pillar in the Malazaan universe. One was given immense book time, the other was shovelled into the background whilst events rolled on around him.

It really isn't fair to compare such a sideline character to such a powerhouse. You're comparing apples to oranges. Comparing Kyle and Crokus is more accurate; both are typical "lvl 1" type characters whose only real differences are their proficiencies (a warrior vs a thief) and where they come from (the city vs the plains). And I don't even think that that is a problem...a "lvl 1" type character who has been developed enough by the author can be much more interesting than either Kyle or Crokus, and can be a very effective tool to explore themes of naivety and the leaching away of innocence, both powerful themes.

Quote

When Tayschrenn and Laseen died I immediately asked the question- jeez, I wonder how Erikson felt about that? Characters he had been developing for a long time, snuffed out at the end of a book very quickly.

I think that they have always discussed the broad strokes of their novels with each other. Erikson once said in an interview that, more than anyone, they are writing these books for each other. So I think Erikson probably thought it was great. And really, at least in Laseen's case, it was. (I, for one, don't think we've seen the last of Tays).

Quote

Not that I understood either characters actions- especially Tay's when he is just sitting there whilst the Crimson Guard walk through the city and Cowl has a chat to him. You cannot keep peddling the excuse that he is saving himself to be Quick's shaved knuckle... again, I am of the opinion that he is a poorly written character, from both Erikson and ICE. He was painted as the villain twice, then became some sort of save the day hero, then sits and does nothing for a long time whilst all goes to hell. It makes little sense, but then, not much did to me.

Tays explains it himself to Kiska, when she is aghast that he won't do anything. He tells her that when you can see every possibility that an action will bring, you become paralyzed. It was a great insight into Tays' character...and power.

Quote

What irked me more than anything was the way ICE palmed of his own character creations into the backstory and instead just seemed to randomly introduce a mass of characters from Erikson's side. And he did -not- flesh them out in ANY way. Ameron, Choss, Toc, Topper... they all just seem to have appeared- and it just seems like a total joke. Toc the Elder for example just sitting there all along... I'm reading thinking, well what about your son? Don't care? Don't give a damn anymore? It doesn't make sense to just abandon everything.

If Toc the Elder is supposed to have cared about his son, then it is not a failing of ICE's, it is a failing of Erikson for making Toc the Elder disappear in the first place. Besides, his son was a Claw, ie, a servant of the Empress he refused to follow.

While I was bothered by the inconsistent characterizations and all that, I would say in ICE's defense that it is hard to write a character who you have a preconceived notion about. Either you force it, and the characterization is boring and fails, or you allow the character to change and evolve and they live. I think to a certain extent, ICE couldn't decide between the two options.

[Burned Tear]

I agree and disagree with a lot of points here. First of all i'd like to say that I enjoyed NoK ten times more than RotCG. Why? because there was only 2 characters, Temper and Kiska. That novel was clearly ICE's natural writing style. Then in RotCG we have a completely different writer, which came across to me as a direct copy of Steven Erikson which did not suit the novel, its different, so make it different.

I dont understand the phrase "This is ICE's GotM." What? GotM was an incredible novel, especially if you view it as two books, Paran/Empire side, and Darujhistan side. All the character's in that novel are much more detailed, we learn exactly who and what Lorn, Crokus, Tattersail and Paran are(imo the four main characters). Compare those four characters to Nait, Kyle, that useless princess girl(the fact that i forgot her name is incredible), and Hurl(imo the 4 people we have the POV of the most, correct me if i am wrong).

Out of those character's the only one's who were believable to me were Hurl and Nait/Jumpy(loved him). Because they had genuine ambitions, beliefs and loyalties. What was Kyle doing the whole story? Just following because he was bored? At what point did he decide that it was his responsibility to return K'azz? And the princess girl, she never had an impact on anything(although the ending suggests she will come back with that whole Claw at the inn thing).

Btw, could the novel have completely omitted The Pit and Ho? All their page time seemed to only serve killing off(or whatever) Tayshrenn, and giving Kiska a cameo. All their development was irrelevent since most of them died, and we already know Jade statues cause otataral so...

Let it be known that i have no problems with Kyle's personality, that is not the cause of my dislike, he is your regular native recruit kid and stuff, i just think he was used as an all-too-convenient witness to a lot of events which seems like a pretty bad cop-out to me.

Also i agree with the portrayal of the old guard, people do get old and legends do get exaggerated.

Another thing: Ryllandaras. Was he just for fun or what?

Ps. I read this after TtH, loved that book 100% no matter what anyone says
pps. sorry if i didnt quote and stuff, i'm new to this.

[foolio]

Quote

Dunno bout the rest, but Silk isn't doing this for the Empire, he is doing it for Li Heng, which is his hometown. He handpicked the squad he was with specifically to get them to Li Heng to help protect the city in case of such an eventuality.

But this was his and his handpicked squads chance to throw off the yolk of the Malazna Empire. He, in affect, fought to keep his beloved city under the thumb of the Malazan empire. This will never make sense to me...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I also didn't enjoy the Pit and the mages therein. Even after we found out that the new arrivals were Crimson Guard it was still dull. Although Ho being a human D'ivers was interesting.

[Grief]

Yeah, it was an interesting idea.
Not sure I liked it too much. Seems a bit pointless, considering to be effective you'd need ridiculous co-ordination, and humans main advantage over animals are teh brains anyhow...