[Apocalypse Now]

OK, so I just finished the book, and I’ve gotta say: bravo, ICE, fucking bravo. This was an excellent book that was on par with the upper-echelon Erikson novels. I’m not gonna say where it ranks overall, but I’m going to say it was enthralling. Here were some observations I’ve had after finishing NoK and RotCG in the last few days(needless to say, spoilers, and I won’t be hiding them. Spoilers for every book, infact, ha ha):

MOST CONFUSING PART: For some reason, I had to reread the part where Ullen and Moss(I think) walk up to Temper and Ferule and they start getting into a ‘name’ conversation. The name Sweetgrass came out of nowhere for me and finally I resorted to the Dramatis Personae to find that Ferrule was also known as Sweetgrass. I was like ‘wtfffff’ because it wasn’t even a largely significant part and it was the most confusing thing in the novel to me.

Needless to say, ICE turned Laseen into a bitch who seemed to be letting the Empire fall apart, to somebody, that retrospectively, leaves us no surprise as to how she bested the rest of the old guard. I had always thought her inferior, since her creating the Claw just seemed to be a copycat move of Dancer’s Talons, but now I see she is truly one of the greats. I guess it’s sad to see that as soon as we come to appreciate her and realize her brilliance, that she gets killed.

For most of the book, Ghelel annoyed me and I really just wanted her to just go away, though she was decent in a way in that she despised the war and stuff, she had a really annoying mix of decency yet this firm aggressiveness that denied the harshness and reality of a battlefield. You know Sansa from A Song of Ice and Fire? For some reason she reminded me of her, in that she had these romantic visions, yet was like Arya from that same series in her stubborn refusal to relinquish these visions and realize they were illusions, as if it was everyone else’s fault that they weren’t following some fairytale rules about the nobility of war or something. Maybe I’m completely off in my assessment of her, but this is the raw unfiltered thoughts I’m having about her directly after reading. I hated how she was disgusted at everything, like it was below her. She reminds me of Felisin in DG, because for the most part, I considered them young, stuck up and insufferable bitches. Near the end, Ghelel didn’t do much to redeem herself like Felisin did. Maybe I will become sympathetic to her, but for now, I don’t look forward to reading more of her.

Also, I was reading very quickly through the Ho sections and the Pit section for most of the book. I was completely uninterested and it seemed unconnected to the rest of the story and it really pissed me off. Only until the end, at that final convergence, did all the pieces come together, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating, especially when I was trying to read up on my other favorite characters to have to deal with a bunch of stuffy old curmudgeony mages argue and bicker. Weakest section of the story I think.

I’ve come to realize that one of the truest quotes to come before a chapter was way back in Deadhouse Gates I think, where it says the engineers are basically the backbone of the Malazan army. It got me thinking to how important that Moranth-Malazan alliance has been to the entirety of this series. There are so many situations that seem to come along where these batshit insane sappers turn the tide. Their autonomy within the army is amazing, because it seems like these guys would have been fired/tamed if it wasn’t for the fact that usually when they disregard the rules they end up saving the day. I remember Nait looking at the Untan kids who joined them and how they acted like they were born sappers. Did you ever meet people who, when you were a kid, were pyromaniacs and obsessed with blowing things up with firecrackers? Sappers are those types of guys.

I’m coming to realize as I type this that every sapper we’ve encountered has each been a different mixture of Fiddler and Hedge qualities. Fiddler and Hedge are without a doubt the fathers of all Malazan sapper technique and philosophy. Hedge is a batshit insane, intuitive, experimental, almost like an idiot savant. From all the sapper stories and the way things have been described, a lot more innovative and strange things have been credited to Hedge than Fiddler. Fiddler on the other hand is more precise, practical, intellectual and such. Together they are like Ying and Yang. Every sapper we’ve met has a mixture of them both, they a lot either lean one way or the other. For instance, Shaky lighting himself up is classic Hedge. Hurl seems to be of the Fiddler mold. The Malazan Empire would have crumbled already if it wasn’t for the sappers. I’m going to cut off my sapper tangent now.

Kiska was underwhelming in this book. Once again, Tay gets a new level of badass added to him, to the point where I am completely bored and sort of confused with Tattersail and her perceptions of him in GoTM. I may have to reread MoI though, so I can clarify it in my mind, but retrospectively, Tattersail just looks dumb and irrelevant.

Braven Tooth was a considerable badass. There’s something strange about the Malazan Empire though, that I think may be due to the perspective of most of the characters in this series: the inexplicable ability of this Empire to produce LEGENDS. No other sovereign power in this book seems to have the sheer volume of legendary, grizzled, veteran type guys than the Malazans. Right now, I’m going to list who I’m talking about and the sheer vastness of this: Kellenved(sp?), Dancer, Laseen, Tayschrenn, Dassem, Temper, Ferrule, Admiral Nok, Dujek, The Crusts, Toc the Elder, Choss, Duiker, Greymane(not born Malazan but a Malazan legend due to his service to the empire), Coltaine(same category as Greymane), Braven Tooth(god, everyone seems to know him, and is then surprised he is alive, Laseen included), Whiskeyjack, Quick Ben, Kalam, Topper, Fiddler and Hedge, Paran, Tavore, Beak, Toc the Younger, Stormy, Gesler(forgot which one was an adjunct), and a hell of a lot of Bridgeburners I won’t bother naming. Some may not be legends, but I guess what I’m asking is: is this because we are mainly from the Malazan perspective that all of these people are of the ‘hero’ status, or is it because this empire has an uncanny ability to find greatness?

I think I’ve reached the end of my tangent. Discuss.

[Urizen]

Apocalypse Now, on Jan 21 2009, 04:09 AM, said:

For most of the book, Ghelel annoyed me and I really just wanted her to just go away, though she was decent in a way in that she despised the war and stuff, she had a really annoying mix of decency yet this firm aggressiveness that denied the harshness and reality of a battlefield. You know Sansa from A Song of Ice and Fire? For some reason she reminded me of her, in that she had these romantic visions, yet was like Arya from that same series in her stubborn refusal to relinquish these visions and realize they were illusions, as if it was everyone else’s fault that they weren’t following some fairytale rules about the nobility of war or something. Maybe I’m completely off in my assessment of her, but this is the raw unfiltered thoughts I’m having about her directly after reading. I hated how she was disgusted at everything, like it was below her. She reminds me of Felisin in DG, because for the most part, I considered them young, stuck up and insufferable bitches. Near the end, Ghelel didn’t do much to redeem herself like Felisin did. Maybe I will become sympathetic to her, but for now, I don’t look forward to reading more of her.

When did Felisin "redeem" herself? First she's stuck up, stupid and insuffrable, then she becomes Shaik reborn and continues to be stuck up, stupid and insuffrable...
Ghelel was more likable and in the end she actually change unlike Felisin.

Apocalypse Now, on Jan 21 2009, 04:09 AM, said:

Also, I was reading very quickly through the Ho sections and the Pit section for most of the book. I was completely uninterested and it seemed unconnected to the rest of the story and it really pissed me off. Only until the end, at that final convergence, did all the pieces come together, but it doesn’t make it any less frustrating, especially when I was trying to read up on my other favorite characters to have to deal with a bunch of stuffy old curmudgeony mages argue and bicker. Weakest section of the story I think.

I feel abivalent about the Pit sections. Like you I didn't like the storyline nor did I like the human D'ivers concept but somehow Ho the person grew on me.

I would actually like it if Ho and Ghelel re-appears in future novels.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Ghelel's story didn't go anywhere for me...and she was naive, and it was irritating. She actually believed in honour, in the Dal Honese nation. Stupid bitch.

[Epiph]

I think you mean Talian. She wasn't Dal Honese.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

No, I'm right. Urko (or was it Choss) said, in the impedning battle, that the Dal Honese might do something...can't remember what it was, but Ghelel didn't think they'd "dishonour themselves." Choss (or was it Urko) got mad and said honour was a load of BS.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Quote

No, I'm right.

What?

She may have believed that the Dal Honese wouldnt act, but that doesnt mean shes a dal honese. her last name is tayliin, shes the heir to the talian throne. do you remember the very first time we meet her, with amaron?

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 22 January 2009 - 06:31 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I never said she was Dal Honese. I meant I was right about the honour thingy.

[T'renn]

It was said, that the Emperors greatest talent, was gathering the talented to him. Hence the family

[Epiph]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 22 2009, 01:51 AM, said:

I never said she was Dal Honese. I meant I was right about the honour thingy.

You made it sound like you thought the Talian League was Dal Honese: "She believed in honor and the Dal Honese nation," which would imply that she, as the scion of the deposed leaders, was Dal Honese. It sounded like you were saying that those were two separate things she believed in, not that she believed in honor and the honor of the Dal Honese nation.

[The Drum]

On the 'name' conversation,
i took it as both Temper and Ferrule were given 'names' (possibly by Braven Tooth) or changed thier original names on enlisting. Ferrule's real name was Sweetgrass and he let it slip to Temper, who wouldn't let on what his name was before he enlisted.
Basically they were taking the piss out of each other as friends do.

At least that's how i read it.

[The Drum]

Regarding the LEGENDS, Theres' plenty of them in other cultures, it's just that the Malazans usually end up kicking ass.

The Crimson Guards for example are full of Legends, K'azz, Skinner, Cowl,
The Edur had Fear and Trull Sengar, but thier not really hailed as legends more like respected.
The Andii obviously had Rake and others (TtH)
The Lether had Brys, The Ceda etc
T'lan Imass have legends among them, Tool for example.
Even the Mott Irregulars have legends among them - The Bolls are feared and respected by thier enemies.

It all depends how you look at the other races. The Malazans have for obvious reasons been given a deeper personal history to many of thier characters, also the Malazan empire encompasses many other countries so a few living legends from each country/culture is not really that exceptional.

IMO.

[Epiph]

The Drum, on Jan 22 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

i took it as both Temper and Ferrule were given 'names' (possibly by Braven Tooth) or changed thier original names on enlisting.

All the members of Dassem's Sword took the names of parts of a sword.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Epiph, on Jan 23 2009, 12:50 PM, said:

The Drum, on Jan 22 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

i took it as both Temper and Ferrule were given 'names' (possibly by Braven Tooth) or changed thier original names on enlisting.

All the members of Dassem's Sword took the names of parts of a sword.

i thought that was a lovely touch

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Epiph, on Jan 23 2009, 07:24 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 22 2009, 01:51 AM, said:

I never said she was Dal Honese. I meant I was right about the honour thingy.

You made it sound like you thought the Talian League was Dal Honese: "She believed in honor and the Dal Honese nation," which would imply that she, as the scion of the deposed leaders, was Dal Honese. It sounded like you were saying that those were two separate things she believed in, not that she believed in honor and the honor of the Dal Honese nation.

That's odd-I talk real good.

How many people were in Dassem's Sword?

[Mcflury]

7 people. So the complete sword had 7 + 1(Dassem) iirc

All those names are parts of a sword? Holy crap, never noticed that (yet another spiffing detail I missed because english isn't my mother language)

So what part of a blade is Ferrule?
And Temper is the part that saves your wrist from getting cut straight off?

Or even better yet: what are the parts of a sword?

[Benji]

The ferrule is the bit between the hilt and the blade that stops it from falling apart. Quillon is the hilt guard I think that stops your hand from sliding up the blade and I can't remember all the others...

[Sinisdar Toste]

well temper is a reference to the strength of the blade

[Apocalypse Now]

I believe there was someone called Edge too, so yeah that makes sense.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

There were only 7? Jeez, I thought there would be a few hundred.

[The Drum]

don't know if this will work, but here goes;


I never realised that there were seven in the 'Sword', for some reason i just thought there were four.