[Mockra]

i'm not sure about the psychos only having 2 killers--same way I can't be sure the cult doesn't have 3 recruiters.

it's just that imho, removing the source of NKs is still more beneficial than removing the possible recruiter.
without CF, we're all floundering in guesswork anyhow, but removing potential killers seems to be a more effective strategy, as far as ii'm concerned.

will post HP's "defence" in a minute.

[Mockra]

Hood's Path, on Jan 26 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

Mockra, on Jan 26 2009, 01:44 PM, said:

right, since Rashan has mentioned the whole "unde the radar"...

there's someone I've meant to take a look at for a while now, because he's been flying solidly under MY radar.
now that I have actually taken a look at his posts, I'm fairly certain that HP may be our second psycho

he has played the entire game very unconfrontationally, agreeing with people's cases, present on all the major trains (except for Serc). he has repeatedly told people that they have made nice cases, but never made an attempt to make one himself.

what bothers me the most, is that he was one of the first people to lead the charge on Kas on day 3, but he used a VERY odd argument to do so...
here's the quote

Hood's Path, on Jan 23 2009, 01:54 PM, said:

Kaschan, on Jan 23 2009, 12:45 PM, said:

Hood's Path, on Jan 23 2009, 06:42 PM, said:

I've read through your defence and I still see no reason for us to think Kesso was lying to us. You keep claiming he had nothing on you, but there must have been something making him suspicious enough to give him that gut feeling. Otherwise he could have just said that he believed what Emu was saying about Fenner but saw nothing in your actions that would indicate you were guilty. He clearly didn't think you were inno, he just says that he has less to go on as far as you're concerned. My vote stands.

Man, what? My point was not that he was lying to us (the bloody CF of Fener proved that!), it was that he had no evidence on me other than his gut feeling.

Why do you trust Kessobahn's gut feeling more than mine, or more than Tennes? Or more than anyone's, in fact?

Is it because Emurlahn gave him the name of the person he tried to kill? Because if it is, you have to re-evaluate.

What I'm saying is that you keep implying there was nothing on you other than a gut feeling. That's not actually true. If Kesso thought you were inno and Emu was trying to mislead us he would have stated it. He doesn't say he has nothing to go on as far as you're concerned, just that he has less on you than he did on Fenner. I think you're trying to deflect our attention here and put everything down to a gut feeling. If as you claim your behaviour was not at all suspicious why wouldn't Kesso say you didn't seem like scum and tell us he thought Emu was lying about you?

now, the underlined part's what's bugging me. because Kesso told us that when he asked Emu who were the likely NK targets, Emu allegedly said "Kesso and Fener". I remember Kesso saying "I'm sure he regrets picking my name now" or something like that. Kesso didn't get Kaschan's name from Emu, as HP's post implies. he had his own, separate suspicions about kas, but they were NOT based on what Emu told him.

HP twisting the truth like that to get an alleged necro lynchede wouldn't really matter, but there are still psychos in play. and they are just as interested as innos in getting rid of necros--and they can make stuff up and fabricate things to get people lynched.
While i'm not trying to question the validity of the Kas lynch here, what I see is HP fabricating evidence to lynch a supposed necro. innos don't fake stuff--they make cases with what's there. Scum make stuff up. Therefore, I present to you HP the psycho killer

You're making much more of that one line then I ever intended. At the time of that post Kaschan was making a bunch of circular arguments based on us going off of a gut feeling. I was simply pointing out that if Kesso felt Emurhlan was lying about Kaschan and trying to direct undue attention on him he could have stated that he didn't think Kaschan was guilty. I wasn't making anything up I was just pointing that out. If Kesso felt Kaschan was 100% inno he would have stated so, but he didn't. He felt that we should look at Kaschan and felt he was in partenership with Fenner. I still stand behind my vote for Kaschan and I think you're really reaching here in trying to make a case against me. I was just trying to point out the circular nature of Kaschan's argument. He wasn't saying very much in his defence and refused to answer direct questions.

Edited for clarity

here's the "defence".
note the underlind part, and the part I underlined as the reason i'm concerned about HP in the first place.

[Mockra]

dead thread is dead?

Edit: lab done, heading home. back in 30 mins or so.

This post has been edited by Mockra: 27 January 2009 - 01:59 PM

[Ruse]

I get the feeling that HP is just confused.

[Anomandaris]

Right, I'm here now. Have to say I'm flattered by all the attention I'm getting from Liosan. Epic case there, man!

At some point I'll dive back in and make a more detailed defence (though perhaps my time might be better spent trying to find a better candidate than me...it's going to be tough!), but for now here are a few points that immediately spring to mind after my read through:

I didn't switch votes from Shadow to Galayn Lord yesterday primarily because I felt there were players who had been absent over the weekend who should probably have the chance to examine what was going on before a lynch went down (and please don't start up with the "He's trying to delay the lynches! SCUM!" line again, HP, I've heard it enough already). My talk of double voters yesterday was also so I could gauge how many votes were required for the lynch - I thought it would be a good idea to make the rest of the readers of the thread aware of my findings so that the L-2 situation was obvious to all.

As I've said, there's nothing I can do to defend myself from the evidence linking myself to Fener on Day 2 other than to say that I was honestly unaware that it was going on and that, at least as far as I was concerned, it was a coincidence.

The reason I keep harking back to the lack of CF is because it is so fundamental to my view of how the game has progressed. I still don't see enough there to be anywhere near convinced that Kaschan was a Necro, and that too is integral to how I visualise the game. Having said that, I'm going to look a right fool if I eventually get to SH and find I was wrong . To start off with I thought I was moving things in the right direction, but now with all the attention on me I feel perhaps I am instead distracting everyone from the search.

I think I'll take a look at HP and see if I can find anything in support of Mockra's case...and maybe take a gander over a few players who have succeeded on drifting into the background recently. Then if need be I'll have another look over Liosan's case and respond in more detail.

[Hood's Path]

Mockra, on Jan 27 2009, 06:18 AM, said:

morning guys

Liosan, as much as I applaud your efforts, once again, if we suspect the creature's dead, shouldn't it be more important to get rid of the people that can actually kill?
necros are useless, if there are no NKs
if we take that GL was the creature (and some of his actions SCREAM symp to me), then the only killer left is the psycho. if we get rid of him, then the cult is helpless, b/c it can't grow anymore.

since I believe that getting rid of the psycho is more important at this point, and since he has not given me a good defence yet

vote Hood's Path

I don't know how much more of a defence you want. Kaschan was linked to Fener, he tried to defend Fener, he disbelieved Kesso for no appraent reason. At the time of the one bolded sentence you're making your case on he refused to answer any questions myself or others were asking directly. We kept getting circular answers out of him I was pushing him to actually answer the questions people were putting forth. Why did he disbelieve Kesso, why was he denfending Fener, why would Kaschan say he felt Fener and Kaschan were in a pratnership if he didn't think it was true? These are some of the questions that were asked. The sentence you're looking at was at the end of a whole bunch of questioning from myself and others. He refused to answer us with anything but to say we were going on a gut feeling. All I was implying is that we were looking at Kaschan's actions as well as the gut feeling he kept refering to. He felt we were all voting based on a gut feeling which wasn't true. I would be interested to see what else you have on me for all of the rest of the days as one sentence isn't very much to build a case on.

Edited for clarity

This post has been edited by Hood's Path: 27 January 2009 - 02:39 PM

[Hood's Path]

I've mentioned my suspicions about Ano several times now. After reading through Liosan's case my supicions are solidified.

vote Anomandaris

[Mockra]

HP, you are dancing around the point with surprising agility.

So, i'll spell it out to you

WHY did you tell Kas that Kesso originally implicated him using information he supposedly got from Emu, when Kesso told us all that Emu gave him TWO names--Fener and Kessobahn himself?

once again, i'm not questioning the validity of the Kas train, i'm questioning your approach to it. if you are a psycho, as I suspect you are, you'd have all the motivation in the world to be rid of a necro. but your reasoning for it is odd, since it doesn't match any info we can get from just reading the thread. hence it caught my attention. Hence my conclusion about your link to Emu. hence my vote.

can I make it ANY MORE clear what I want to know from you?

This post has been edited by Mockra: 27 January 2009 - 02:43 PM

[Meanas]

Ok I am busy right now and slightly hung over. Thinking about reading Liosans case makes me shudder. I will be back in a bit and go through the cases.

Yeah Tennes was Modkilled. I refuse to booo cause I wanted him gone. so yeah.

[Ruse]

HP...you say that Ehmur named Kaschan after he died, which isnt what happened...THAT is the crux of what mockra is talking about.

woopsie...cross post

This post has been edited by Ruse: 27 January 2009 - 02:50 PM

[Liosan]

Anomandaris, on Jan 27 2009, 02:28 PM, said:

Right, I'm here now. Have to say I'm flattered by all the attention I'm getting from Liosan. Epic case there, man!

At some point I'll dive back in and make a more detailed defence (though perhaps my time might be better spent trying to find a better candidate than me...it's going to be tough!), but for now here are a few points that immediately spring to mind after my read through:

I didn't switch votes from Shadow to Galayn Lord yesterday primarily because I felt there were players who had been absent over the weekend who should probably have the chance to examine what was going on before a lynch went down (and please don't start up with the "He's trying to delay the lynches! SCUM!" line again, HP, I've heard it enough already). My talk of double voters yesterday was also so I could gauge how many votes were required for the lynch - I thought it would be a good idea to make the rest of the readers of the thread aware of my findings so that the L-2 situation was obvious to all.

As I've said, there's nothing I can do to defend myself from the evidence linking myself to Fener on Day 2 other than to say that I was honestly unaware that it was going on and that, at least as far as I was concerned, it was a coincidence.

The reason I keep harking back to the lack of CF is because it is so fundamental to my view of how the game has progressed. I still don't see enough there to be anywhere near convinced that Kaschan was a Necro, and that too is integral to how I visualise the game. Having said that, I'm going to look a right fool if I eventually get to SH and find I was wrong . To start off with I thought I was moving things in the right direction, but now with all the attention on me I feel perhaps I am instead distracting everyone from the search.

I think I'll take a look at HP and see if I can find anything in support of Mockra's case...and maybe take a gander over a few players who have succeeded on drifting into the background recently. Then if need be I'll have another look over Liosan's case and respond in more detail.

As with every case i ever make, ano i do try and offered good and bad interpretations, so you will find portions of it were i whole heartidly agree with you in your opinions. I will summarise the main points for you, i too am not a fan of the dreaded red ink, it reminds me of university coursework. This summary will be the cold facts and no guess work toward reasons so you arent defending my interpretation but your actions which i think is what actually matters in defending a case.

I will try also to keep them in order of importance.

1 - There was a link between yourself and fener on day 2 before the reveal in voting patterns.
2 - After the Kessobahn reveal you showed reluctance to place a vote on fener.
3 - When kaschan was the main lynch target you tried to stall the lynch by putting forward mockra and then galayn lord.
4 - When galayn lord was the focus of the lynch you tried to build case against silanah, omtose and shadow, voting for shadow.
5 - You have not voted for one necromancer suspect and left it to there to complete the lynch.
6 - You use the argument that we are making wrong assumptions on the bases of losing the cf, yet you make the opposite assumption and are convinced you are right.
7 - You have based much of your arguments on the loss of the coroner finder.
8 - The loss of the cf benefited you more than kaschan,


There is of course a lot of room in the posts to make jumps of logic regarding what has happened and your role in it, but the above 8 points are facts and cannot in my eye be refuted as they are simply things you have done. I have made my case and if you want to break down the points i suggest starting with those.

edited point five - as technically it was wrong, added amendmum to clarify what was meant.

This post has been edited by Liosan: 27 January 2009 - 02:54 PM

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 5 - 28.5 hours left

13 players still playing, 7 votes to lynch, 7 votes for night

4 vote Anomandaris (Omtose, Liosan, Galain, Hood's Path)
1 vote Hood's Path (Mockra)


8 have not voted: Anomandaris, D'riss, Meanas, Rashan, Ruse, Shadow, Silanah, Thyrllan.

[Mockra]

Ruse, on Jan 27 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

HP...you say that Ehmur named Kaschan after he died, which isnt what happened...THAT is the crux of what mockra is talking about.

woopsie...cross post

this point has been stated by three people now--me, Meanas, and now Ruse

yet HP continues to ignore it, or pretend he doesn't understand it.

[Hood's Path]

Mockra, on Jan 27 2009, 08:43 AM, said:

HP, you are dancing around the point with surprising agility.

So, i'll spell it out to you

WHY did you tell Kas that Kesso originally implicated him using information he supposedly got from Emu, when Kesso told us all that Emu gave him TWO names--Fener and Kessobahn himself?

once again, i'm not questioning the validity of the Kas train, i'm questioning your approach to it. if you are a psycho, as I suspect you are, you'd have all the motivation in the world to be rid of a necro. but your reasoning for it is odd, since it doesn't match any info we can get from just reading the thread. hence it caught my attention. Hence my conclusion about your link to Emu. hence my vote.

can I make it ANY MORE clear what I want to know from you?

Ok sorry I see what you are asking me now. I really did think you were trying to make a case on me based just on my pressuring Kaschan. That sentence was a mistake, I can see what you mean by it being suspicious. I never meant to make something up. What I was trying to say was why would Kesso implicate Kaschan for no reason. Kess had definite info on Fenner from Emu and then made his case for Fenner and Kaschan being in partnership. I honestly never meant to imply that Emu had named Kaschan and Fener when questioned. What I meant to ask was why would Kaschan imply Kesso was lying. As I say it came at the end of a long argument of circular answers betweent Kashcan myself and a few others. I was doing alot of reading back and forth between long posts while at work. It was an honest mistake. If you go back and look at the rest of my behaviour you'll see that I'm consistent in my actions. I still stand behind my vote and my actions that one sentence was just human error. I really didn't understand what you were asking me before, I'm at work most of the time I'm on and running back and forth to read and post, I'm sorry.

[Mockra]

you have 3 posts in convo (we can look them up, remember?)

you mention the Emu point in the last of the three.
Prior to that you talk about Fener not coming back to defend himself as an attempt to not implicate Kas.
your strongest point is "why would Kesso say he suspected Kas, ifhe didn't have a rason to?",
i'm not using this as an accusation, just analyzing your three posts in the Kas train.

my other question is, okay, if the first time you used it, it was an honest mistake, why did you word it the exact same way when you presented your first defence yesterday?

[Liosan]

Just telling you all now because i have pm'ed pathshaper, i am not in the office tomorrow as i am away for work so i may or may not have access to the forum until thursday and then i am out again for a course on friday. I will try and make an effort to visit the in-laws tomorrow night though or over the weekend if i do not have internet facilities during the day. Hopefully net facilities will be available on friday, but tomorrow day is most likely hit and miss as i am out with customers.

[Hood's Path]

It was a mistake, I don't know what else to tell you. I really did not understand what you were asking me. Now that you've specifically pointed it out I have answered you. Yesterday when you asked me I didn't have time to go back and look at all the posts. All I did was look at what you had underlined. As I told you before I really did feel tha you were attacking me just for pressuring Kaschan. I just read you line and gave you a defence for voting Kaschan. I should have read what you were asking me more carefully! At the time I was reading through posts regarding Anomandaris, so my attention was split. It's my fault I don't know what else to say. You are right I made a mistake I'm not denying it. I will own up to the fact that I made a mistake in the same way that I stand behind my votes. I'm not trying to dodge your questions I am being honest. As I say look at the rest of my behaviour, what else have I done that would make you think I was the psychopath. I try to be as consitent as possible. This was an error on my part. I should have read more carefully. I never meant to fabricate anything!

[Anomandaris]

So I checked out Hood's Path...he actually seemed to spend most of the first two days agreeing with me, which I find rather ironic!

The thing is that apart from that he doesn't appear to have done a whole lot. He will react to other people's cases, certainly, but never seems to bother to make any of his own (apart from perhaps saying that we should look at me a bit more closely). And even then, I don't see much to his case:

Hood's Path, on Jan 25 2009, 06:11 PM, said:

I think we should also keep a close eye on Anomandaris, this is the third time he's disagreed when we've had a fairly stong case built on someone. Everytime it looks like we may be going for a lynch he disagrees and tries to sway our attention, or votes for someone completely different, often using the excuse of not wanting to speed lynch. It is starting to look very suspicious. I'm wondering if he is the creature trying to protect his masters.

I only remember one time where I tried to sway people's attention away from the train in progress, and that was the Kaschan train. So there's a certain degree of hyperbole there. Having said that, I've made some factual errors in some of my cases, so I can't exactly blame him for that without being accused of hypocrisy. But fair enough, he makes his case. The problem I have with him is the next time he tries to drive the group forwards towards me:

Hood's Path said:

As I stated in an earlier post, I think we need to look at Ano next. I had their roles reversed, I feel GL is a necro and Ano is the creature. Ano has tried to discount strong cases on three occasions now, saying he doesn't find them to have much merit. He then tries diverting out attention by voting for someone completely different, who wasn't even on the readar previously . He's attempted to derail several trains with the excuse of not wanting to speed lynch. It's also the timing of his posts, he waits until we have something going and then comes in to try to change our minds for no apparent reason. He hasn't really started any of the days out with a case of his own. His posts normally appear after we are really focused on an individual. I get the feeling that he is the creature trying to protect his masters. Even if I have the roles mixed up and Liosan is correct, he still warrants serious consideration and attention.

Once again with the three cases I've tried to derail! List them, please. Trying to put attention on people who are off the radar seems like a good idea to me - if you let half the players slink through the game without getting noticed, the chances are you're not going to find the scum. Indicative of someone who wants to keep everyone on a steady course to ruin? (Now that I think about it, that point is only really persuasive if you think we're heading the wrong way, which I've made quite clear by now that I believe). Not much I can do about the timing - I make my posts when I've finished writing them, and I start writing them when I think of something to say. But I would like to see which posts he means here. And to say I haven't started any of the days with cases of my own is ridiculous - look at Day 4, I started off by making 3 big cases.


Basically my point is that the Hood's Path's behaviour throughout the game has seemed to have been that of someone desparately trying to fit in. For the first three days, it was opinions only, no real original thoughts. Then he notices someone disagreeing and feels he has found someone that will give him readymade support for a case, because their views disagree with the group's. I already had two votes on me by the time he made the first post I quoted, anyway. He has to find reasons, but he doesn't find accurate ones. He's trying to nod along, but not doing the best job of it. That seems rather suspicious to me.

The thing is, this does feel very OMGUS on my part. On the otherhand, there is something odd there. I think I'll prod a little and see what happens.

Vote Hood's Path

[Rashan]

Liosan, on Jan 27 2009, 09:51 AM, said:

I will try also to keep them in order of importance.

1 - There was a link between yourself and fener on day 2 before the reveal in voting patterns.
2 - After the Kessobahn reveal you showed reluctance to place a vote on fener.
3 - When kaschan was the main lynch target you tried to stall the lynch by putting forward mockra and then galayn lord.
4 - When galayn lord was the focus of the lynch you tried to build case against silanah, omtose and shadow, voting for shadow.
5 - You have not voted for one necromancer suspect and left it to there to complete the lynch.
6 - You use the argument that we are making wrong assumptions on the bases of losing the cf, yet you make the opposite assumption and are convinced you are right.
7 - You have based much of your arguments on the loss of the coroner finder.
8 - The loss of the cf benefited you more than kaschan,


There is of course a lot of room in the posts to make jumps of logic regarding what has happened and your role in it, but the above 8 points are facts and cannot in my eye be refuted as they are simply things you have done. I have made my case and if you want to break down the points i suggest starting with those.

edited point five - as technically it was wrong, added amendmum to clarify what was meant.

This is very good. But i am holding my vote until Ano can respond. I don't have alot of time today, but theres plenty of time to discuss and I don't think we have to rush this.

[Liosan]

I am not proposing a speed lynch, i am not available tomorrow so if we ran this one late i hopefully wont miss very much. Quite a selfish view point but it is mine.