[Mockra]

sigh
you see, that's kind of the major problem right there.
as long as we're all up in arms about rooting out the cult, as we have been ever since kesso's reveal, we have no chance of finding the psychos. because no one is looking for them, regular scum have absolutely no reason to do anything scum would normally do--they can just follow the main trains and altch onto cult suspects, and everyone will thek them god, proper innos.

there are several people like that, that haven't really done anything worth of notice, but are on all the right trains and try to stay out of sight when they can--you, Ruse and D'riss come to mind. of them, I looked at you because of that phrase.
obviously, I can't be sure it wasn't just a mistake.
but I do feel it's imprtant to step back and remember the psychos. If we think we have a necro, than we can guard him.
I just feel that the more time we spend focusing solely on the cult now, the harder will it then become to dredge up any evidence against possible psychos.

EDIT: cross-post with several people, this was @ HP, obviously.

This post has been edited by Mockra: 27 January 2009 - 03:23 PM

[Hood's Path]

Well I've said all I have to say. I'm at work and I really don't have time to be on here every minute saying the same thing over and over. I apologized, I admited I made a mistake, this is my first time playing Mafia I have found it overwhelming trying to read through everyone's posts, keep up with what's going on and remain active. First I was accused of not being active enough, and middle of the road, then I tried to up my posts while maintaining a decent level of content and it's still nto good enough! I have been consistent and straight forward, I have tried to avoid speed lynching and have given people a fair chance to defend themselves. I stand behind my votes, and I admit my mistakes. If you can't accept that human error can be involved in the course of the game then fine. Vote me, but I'm done with answering the same thing. You are basing a case off of a sentence and someone's simple mistake. We have no CF and this is all you have to go on in saying that I'm a psycho?! I would think you would want a little more than that to go on before voting off an inno. It somehow makes more sense to you that I'm guilty than someone like Ano who has behaved oddly time and time again! I've voted, I made my case for why I did it, I don't see the need to requote things other people have quoted. I'm sticking to my vote as I thought Ano was guilty for awhile and I have nothing left to say. Vote me if you want as there is obviously no changing your minds!

[Liosan]

Hood's Path, on Jan 27 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Well I've said all I have to say. I'm at work and I really don't have time to be on here every minute saying the same thing over and over. I apologized, I admited I made a mistake, this is my first time playing Mafia I have found it overwhelming trying to read through everyone's posts, keep up with what's going on and remain active. First I was accused of not being active enough, and middle of the road, then I tried to up my posts while maintaining a decent level of content and it's still nto good enough! I have been consistent and straight forward, I have tried to avoid speed lynching and have given people a fair chance to defend themselves. I stand behind my votes, and I admit my mistakes. If you can't accept that human error can be involved in the course of the game then fine. Vote me, but I'm done with answering the same thing. You are basing a case off of a sentence and someone's simple mistake. We have no CF and this is all you have to go on in saying that I'm a psycho?! I would think you would want a little more than that to go on before voting off an inno. It somehow makes more sense to you that I'm guilty than someone like Ano who has behaved oddly time and time again! I've voted, I made my case for why I did it, I don't see the need to requote things other people have quoted. I'm sticking to my vote as I thought Ano was guilty for awhile and I have nothing left to say. Vote me if you want as there is obviously no changing your minds!

I would not have guessed this was your first game!

[Anomandaris]

Liosan, on Jan 27 2009, 02:51 PM, said:

As with every case i ever make, ano i do try and offered good and bad interpretations, so you will find portions of it were i whole heartidly agree with you in your opinions. I will summarise the main points for you, i too am not a fan of the dreaded red ink, it reminds me of university coursework. This summary will be the cold facts and no guess work toward reasons so you arent defending my interpretation but your actions which i think is what actually matters in defending a case.

I will try also to keep them in order of importance.

1 - There was a link between yourself and fener on day 2 before the reveal in voting patterns.
2 - After the Kessobahn reveal you showed reluctance to place a vote on fener.
3 - When kaschan was the main lynch target you tried to stall the lynch by putting forward mockra and then galayn lord.
4 - When galayn lord was the focus of the lynch you tried to build case against silanah, omtose and shadow, voting for shadow.
5 - You have not voted for one necromancer suspect and left it to there to complete the lynch.
6 - You use the argument that we are making wrong assumptions on the bases of losing the cf, yet you make the opposite assumption and are convinced you are right.
7 - You have based much of your arguments on the loss of the coroner finder.
8 - The loss of the cf benefited you more than kaschan,


There is of course a lot of room in the posts to make jumps of logic regarding what has happened and your role in it, but the above 8 points are facts and cannot in my eye be refuted as they are simply things you have done. I have made my case and if you want to break down the points i suggest starting with those.

edited point five - as technically it was wrong, added amendmum to clarify what was meant.

Thank for the rundown Liosan, makes it much easier to reply.


1 - I've already said I have no defence for this other than coincidence. I really had no idea that I was following Fener's voting pattern so closely.

2 - By the time I got there there was already a sizeable train on Fener, and I wanted to see if Fener had anything to say. I certainly didn't intend to give the appearance of being reluctant to lynch him, but I guess it came out that way. The way I was looking at it was that the lynch would probably go through anyway, but that I was going to be around until the deadline, so I figured I could always add to it if my vote was needed.

3 - When I put forward Mockra, there were three votes on Kaschan, one of which was from Korlat and not particularly substantial "Kesso pointed him out, let's drop a vote on him", the other two of which were from Silanah and Omtose, with their respective cases. As I have already said, I didn't think the cases were particularly strong, so I figured that while there was some pressure on Kaschan, we were far from being in a "Kaschan is the main lynch candidate for today" situation. If people can't point out their suspicions then, when can they? Before any votes are cast at all? When I voted for Galayn Lord, it was actually after the lynch had occured. But in any case, I wasn't the one who made the case, that was Meanas. The distraction was not caused by me in this case, so why is it being used against me?

4 - I stated the night before that I would be making cases against Silanah, Omtose and Shadow the next day. This was before Galayn Lord was going to be the main focus of the lynch, and I have said many times that I thought a GL lynch was fine by me - note my vote on him the previous day. So how is this a distraction, if the thing I was distracting from hadn't even begun when I made my intentions clear?

5 - This is true. I've tried to explain my point of view in the case of the Fener lynch, and you should all know by now my feelings on the Kaschan lynch. During the GL lynch I was holding off in order to get comments from some of the players who hadn't been so active over the weekend. Looking at the trend though, I realise that this waiting on casting my vote is kind of a bad habit, I shall endeavour to curb my tendencies in that regard from now on.

6 - In order for me to make an argument that you are wrong, I have to think that you are wrong, do I not? How else would I make such a case? Whereever possible I have tried to show why I feel the way I do about the Kaschan lynch - I will readily admit that I do not have any hard evidence in favour of his innocence, but also add that I see little in the way of decent evidence to prove his guilt. My fears stem from the lack of accountability for an incorrect lynch now that the CFs are gone, and that includes any that I might have caused myself. Which nicely segues onto the next point.

7 - Apart from initially thinking that the loss of the CF was evidence supporting Kaschan's innocence (I now see that that was a fallacy based on my own presuppositions), my views are based on the consequences of the lack of CF, not the fact that the CF seems to have intentionally been lost by the Necros. Without one, there are no consequences for getting a lynch wrong, when in my view there should at least be some suspicion cast on a player who leads an incorrect lynch. I don't see why this is a problem...

8 - I don't understand this point at all. There was no pressure on me whatsoever after Day 3, so how did I benefit from the lack of CF?


EDIT: Removed some unnecessary quoted stuff.

This post has been edited by Anomandaris: 27 January 2009 - 03:47 PM

[Hood's Path]

Liosan, on Jan 27 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

Hood's Path, on Jan 27 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Well I've said all I have to say. I'm at work and I really don't have time to be on here every minute saying the same thing over and over. I apologized, I admited I made a mistake, this is my first time playing Mafia I have found it overwhelming trying to read through everyone's posts, keep up with what's going on and remain active. First I was accused of not being active enough, and middle of the road, then I tried to up my posts while maintaining a decent level of content and it's still nto good enough! I have been consistent and straight forward, I have tried to avoid speed lynching and have given people a fair chance to defend themselves. I stand behind my votes, and I admit my mistakes. If you can't accept that human error can be involved in the course of the game then fine. Vote me, but I'm done with answering the same thing. You are basing a case off of a sentence and someone's simple mistake. We have no CF and this is all you have to go on in saying that I'm a psycho?! I would think you would want a little more than that to go on before voting off an inno. It somehow makes more sense to you that I'm guilty than someone like Ano who has behaved oddly time and time again! I've voted, I made my case for why I did it, I don't see the need to requote things other people have quoted. I'm sticking to my vote as I thought Ano was guilty for awhile and I have nothing left to say. Vote me if you want as there is obviously no changing your minds!

I would not have guessed this was your first game!

Well believe it! I'm not just saying I'm a noob to garner pitty or anything like that. I'm just trying to show how I could have made the mistake I did. Don't give me any special treatment because I'm new, if you really think I'm guilty then vote me. All I'm saying is consider the fact that I could be telling the truth here and the fact that I haven't done anything else really which would point to the fact that I'm the psycho. Also look at who's making the case against me. I have said for a couple of days now that I felt Ano was guilty and wouldn't you know it he suddenly has this giant case against me. Part of what has made me suspicious of Ano all along is that he likes to divert attention by pickin out someone who is pretty much off the radar and building huge cases against them. This will be the fourth time he's done it. Except that this time he's trying to divert attention from himself so I expect him to really put the pressure on.

[Mockra]

Hood's Path, on Jan 27 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

Well I've said all I have to say. I'm at work and I really don't have time to be on here every minute saying the same thing over and over. I apologized, I admited I made a mistake, this is my first time playing Mafia I have found it overwhelming trying to read through everyone's posts, keep up with what's going on and remain active. First I was accused of not being active enough, and middle of the road, then I tried to up my posts while maintaining a decent level of content and it's still nto good enough! I have been consistent and straight forward, I have tried to avoid speed lynching and have given people a fair chance to defend themselves. I stand behind my votes, and I admit my mistakes. If you can't accept that human error can be involved in the course of the game then fine. Vote me, but I'm done with answering the same thing. You are basing a case off of a sentence and someone's simple mistake. We have no CF and this is all you have to go on in saying that I'm a psycho?! I would think you would want a little more than that to go on before voting off an inno. It somehow makes more sense to you that I'm guilty than someone like Ano who has behaved oddly time and time again! I've voted, I made my case for why I did it, I don't see the need to requote things other people have quoted. I'm sticking to my vote as I thought Ano was guilty for awhile and I have nothing left to say. Vote me if you want as there is obviously no changing your minds!

sigh

as of right now, you're not even top suspect for a lynch. Ano has 3, with Rashan saying he'll vote for him later.
you have 2

and despite what you may think, we're not trying to pick on a newbie (and yes, Liosan is right--it'd be hard to guess that you're first-timer)
I am obviously unsure of your guilt--just as I am unsure of anyone's since the CF is gone. we CAN'T be sure. that's the problem.
Every lynch requires a set of assumptions, and some, if not most of them are bound to be faulty.
the day is still young, no one's even close to being lynched. There's little reason for the "lynch me if you want" speeches yet.

[Hood's Path]

The only reason that I put forth the lynch me if you want statement is that I'm not going to be on a tone today. I don't have the time to sit here saying the same thing over and over or even to justify my vote for the day any further than I have. I just wanted to point out that I've made my defence and I'm staying with my vote until at least this evening when I get home. Like I said before I'm not looking for any pitty, if you feel I've acted in a guilty manner then vote me, that's what the game is all about!

[Omtose]

Well HP, if this is your first game (not saying it isn't, but I'll only know for sure only when i see your CF/your name in SH - and in Mafia, anyone can lie ), then huge kudos for the performance you put down so far - I never pegged you as a new player.

Out again, I'll be able to comment on the substance rather than the veneer when home.

@ Mockra - if HP is new, I guess the first votes you catch can be intimidating
And thus possibly cause an (over)reaction .

[Anomandaris]

Then again, there's always the occasional tendency of the mods to give new players a Scum role so they get tossed in at the deep end and have the pleasure of swimming for their lives.

Mind you, they never did that for me...

[Mockra]

heh, I was a symp my first game... it was lovely

@ HP: since your vote's on the most popular train so far, I doubt many will question your decision

one again, not directed directl at you, but this is what I find so infuriating about a no CF game--we have to rely on a chain of assumptions, and if we did make a mistake early on, than the entire game can be steered in the wrong direction by scum who always know more.

I remain steadfast in my conviction that our general strategy should involve looking for possible psychos and not get tunnel vision'ed just looking for the cult.

as such, i'll vote for ano, but only as last resort, and only towards the end of the day when I see no viable candidates for the psycho role.

[Liosan]

Anomandaris, on Jan 27 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

Quote

1 - There was a link between yourself and fener on day 2 before the reveal in voting patterns.
2 - After the Kessobahn reveal you showed reluctance to place a vote on fener.
3 - When kaschan was the main lynch target you tried to stall the lynch by putting forward mockra and then galayn lord.
4 - When galayn lord was the focus of the lynch you tried to build case against silanah, omtose and shadow, voting for shadow.
5 - You have not voted for one necromancer suspect and left it to there to complete the lynch.
6 - You use the argument that we are making wrong assumptions on the bases of losing the cf, yet you make the opposite assumption and are convinced you are right.
7 - You have based much of your arguments on the loss of the coroner finder.
8 - The loss of the cf benefited you more than kaschan,

Thank for the rundown Liosan, makes it much easier to reply.

1 - I've already said I have no defence for this other than coincidence. I really had no idea that I was following Fener's voting pattern so closely.

2 - By the time I got there there was already a sizeable train on Fener, and I wanted to see if Fener had anything to say. I certainly didn't intend to give the appearance of being reluctant to lynch him, but I guess it came out that way. The way I was looking at it was that the lynch would probably go through anyway, but that I was going to be around until the deadline, so I figured I could always add to it if my vote was needed.

3 - When I put forward Mockra, there were three votes on Kaschan, one of which was from Korlat and not particularly substantial "Kesso pointed him out, let's drop a vote on him", the other two of which were from Silanah and Omtose, with their respective cases. As I have already said, I didn't think the cases were particularly strong, so I figured that while there was some pressure on Kaschan, we were far from being in a "Kaschan is the main lynch candidate for today" situation. If people can't point out their suspicions then, when can they? Before any votes are cast at all? When I voted for Galayn Lord, it was actually after the lynch had occured. But in any case, I wasn't the one who made the case, that was Meanas. The distraction was not caused by me in this case, so why is it being used against me?

4 - I stated the night before that I would be making cases against Silanah, Omtose and Shadow the next day. This was before Galayn Lord was going to be the main focus of the lynch, and I have said many times that I thought a GL lynch was fine by me - note my vote on him the previous day. So how is this a distraction, if the thing I was distracting from hadn't even begun when I made my intentions clear?

5 - This is true. I've tried to explain my point of view in the case of the Fener lynch, and you should all know by now my feelings on the Kaschan lynch. During the GL lynch I was holding off in order to get comments from some of the players who hadn't been so active over the weekend. Looking at the trend though, I realise that this waiting on casting my vote is kind of a bad habit, I shall endeavour to curb my tendencies in that regard from now on.

6 - In order for me to make an argument that you are wrong, I have to think that you are wrong, do I not? How else would I make such a case? Whereever possible I have tried to show why I feel the way I do about the Kaschan lynch - I will readily admit that I do not have any hard evidence in favour of his innocence, but also add that I see little in the way of decent evidence to prove his guilt. My fears stem from the lack of accountability for an incorrect lynch now that the CFs are gone, and that includes any that I might have caused myself. Which nicely segues onto the next point.

7 - Apart from initially thinking that the loss of the CF was evidence supporting Kaschan's innocence (I now see that that was a fallacy based on my own presuppositions), my views are based on the consequences of the lack of CF, not the fact that the CF seems to have intentionally been lost by the Necros. Without one, there are no consequences for getting a lynch wrong, when in my view there should at least be some suspicion cast on a player who leads an incorrect lynch. I don't see why this is a problem...

8 - I don't understand this point at all. There was no pressure on me whatsoever after Day 3, so how did I benefit from the lack of CF?

Reformatted to make it easier to read.

Ok, now sadly in order to understand the case you have to read my actual case because it does link each of these points in a way that shows were the actual leaps of intuition, and my use of logic come into play, but i see for almost all of these a good and solid defence. Each taken on their own they are not that bad. After reading your responses, for me the main points now are point 1, 5 and 8. And for this you are going to have to defend against were reasoning and gut are the main focus. If its any consolation, this is me being reasonable.

The vote for galayn lord i didnt realise that was after the lynch, my mistake, i assume it was between the time of the last vote and the lynch scene?

The harder to define and less easy to defend part of the argument goes as follows and this is how i see in my mind the scenario played out.

day 1 - I made a case on serc, which resulted in an inno being lynched.
night 1 - the creature targets emurlahn and the killers target fener (according to kessogoth).
early day 2 - (note) this could have occured day 1, feel free to correct me as i am unsure of the exact time. Kessobahn cites fener and kaschan as possible suspects for necromancers. Fener is recruited and follows his new master into a vote. Anomandaris follows fener in a vote straight after and then kaschan joins in and shadow too.
late day 2 - kessobahn reveals, implying that fener is a necromancer! Galayn lord votes for kessobahn. Both anomandaris and kaschan refrain from voting, stating that they wish to allow fener time to explain himself.

1 vote Galain (Fener)
1 vote Silanah (Shadow)
1 vote Tennes (Kaschan)
10 vote Fener (Kessobahn, Ruse, Galayn Lord, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas, D'riss, Mockra, Ampelas, Korlat)
1 vote Galayn Lord (Omtose)


night 2 - ampelas and kessobahn both die. We lose our cf. Now at this point in our game many are wondering why they didnt recruit the cf. This was before any link was made between ano and fener, but there was a link between fener and kaschan made by our medium.

day 3 - train builds on kaschan citing loss of cf as prove of his guilt. galayn defends kaschan. anomandaris votes for galayn lord (after the lynch it is noted) Ano claims cf loss is to blind us and lead us on a train of thought.

8 vote for Kaschan (Korlat, Silanah, Omtose, Thyrllan, Shadow, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas)
1 votes for Tennes (Rashan)
1 vote for Mockra (Anomandaris)

1 late vote for galayn (ano)

Night 3 - no one dies. possible witch bp, possibly 2 recruits.

day 4 - train builds on galayn lord. ano makes three strong cases on shadow silanah and omtose. Ano agrees with the galayn case, but never votes for galayn

1 vote for Anomandaris (Galayn Lord)
8 vote for Galayn Lord (Liosan, Omtose, Meanas, Hood's Path, Korlat, Shadow, D'riss, Rashan)
1 vote for Shadow (Anomandaris)

Ano makes point about the double voters indicating how to find them.

night 5 - korlat dies (worth noting that korlat is one of three players on every lynch so far and thus a good candidate for double voter)

I think ano, you didnt recruit kessobahn because looking back at day 2, you were too closing linked with fener (point 8 above). If people hadnt of been so hung up on the morgoth suspicions for kaschan then you would have been the lynch that day. Had you come back guilty it would have garaunteed a kaschan lynch the next day. Seeing kaschan going done you made a reluctant case on who you suspected was your creature but it was too late and you ended up voting after the lynch completed.

The next day on the back of your case and others galayn was on the chopping board, but now you are desperate, (hopefully the witch did use her bp) you havent got a recruit because we lynched fener and there were two nks on night 2 and none on night 3 and now your creature is facing death and so you make three large and very good cases on possible scum.

I might not have my priorities right, but i do think you are the final necro.

[Shadow]

I'm here. Looks like about 2 pages to catch up on. Back in a Sec.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day 5 - 27 hours left

13 players still playing, 7 votes to lynch, 7 votes for night

4 vote Anomandaris (Omtose, Liosan, Galain, Hood's Path)
2 vote Hood's Path (Mockra, Anomandaris)

7 have not voted: D'riss, Meanas, Rashan, Ruse, Shadow, Silanah, Thyrllan.

[Meanas]

Ok I am feeling a little bit better (thank god for Pepto), and have taken a look at the cases for today. Sweet Jesus Liosan don't you have a life. Or are you a certain ninja cat person who likes to make huge cases.

I think case on Ando is pretty solid. Even Ando says that there are things in there that he can't defend against. However I also don't want to ignore the killers. As I feel we have been doing that since the Fener lynch. Although I also want to point out that we shouldn't assume that GL was the creature. If there were several necros and GL was one then the Necros still might have recruited last night. All we really know is that there was only one kill. We don't know who killed Korlat. Although if it was a killer would you be so kind as to say so. That would be a big help thanks in advance.

Now I am a little hesitant to lynch HP off of the one mistake but sometimes that is all a good scum gives you. As for this being your first game. Well done so far. I remember Gems first game and the first one were she was scum. So I don't give out noob passes. I am slightly less suspicious of you over a single mistake. Plus I think that there other canidates that need to be looked at.

I understand that while we are getting down to the end game and the days go faster now I don't think that we should rush to lynch anyone. People should be able to defend themselves which the ones who are underpressure today have done.


I was going through some peoples posts and there are somethings that I would like to draw attention to. Ruse hasn't voted since Fener. In fact he has stayed nice and quiet for the most part. Just popping in enough so that people will know that he is around and it will look like he is active. But when you go back and look at his posts he has been very noncomittal.

Ruse, on Jan 26 2009, 10:11 AM, said:

Well...catching up has been rather brutal.
Some seriously looooong cases and even longer defenses. (omtose )

The fact that GL comes back and posts once for his defense and then promptly disappears is rather strange.
I agree the case on him is at least half decent, but it is also based on information that we dont have since we are now second guessing what kaschans CF result was.
I myself did not see the kaschan case as too convincing, yet there was some merit to it.

So in short, im not really convinced by anything at this moment.

We still have a lot of time dont we?
How moany votes is that for GL now?
Remember the double voters guys, lets be careful.

Very middle of the road about Kaschan's lynch and points out that there are still double voters out there so he can try and seem helpful. Trys to say that the Case against GL is based on Kaschan lynch. When infact it was based on Fener's lynch and GL reaction to it.

Ruse, on Jan 26 2009, 10:48 AM, said:

6 votes is getting very close to a lynch.
I would like to hear more from GL other than just making a case on someone, voting and not returning.

Asking people to slow down. Nothing wrong with that.

Ruse, on Jan 26 2009, 12:18 PM, said:

I agree liosan, GL's response has been far from convincing.
Yet we have 32 hours left of the day, so i reckon we should give him a chancce to respond properly, aswell as see what other poeple might have to say.

Ok at this point several cases have been made against GL yet Ruse remains very noncommital and unwilling to stick his neck and give anyone a indication of his thoughts about anything.

Ruse, on Jan 27 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

Wow...missed everything.
So much for GL coming back to defend.

One kill last night could mean we hit the creature. One can only hope.
Suppose we should assume that there was another recruitment though.

Having caught up i think the case on HP has some merit. Will go have a look at him if i ever get the chance today.

As far as the Ano case...well sorry i just dont see it. Liosan says its mainly gut. So I dont see how you can like Liosans case Omtose. Unless you share a gut?
Did i miss a proper case on him?

What is he talking about GL came back and made a mediocare defense which was ripped apart by Liosan. There were 3 cases made against GL and he was given a chance to defend himself. This is either a player who can't be bothered to read a page or 2 before or who is trying to cast doubt on the lynch of an obvious scum.

Ruse, on Jan 27 2009, 10:59 AM, said:

Ahhhh...
missed a page, seen liosans look at day 2 and it does seem to link those players.
But it could just be coincidence like anno's defence says.
Having said that if nothing better is put forward i'd vote for him.

Middle of the road but no real content.

Really there is not a ton of material there I just felt that Ruse is sliding along in the middle of the road and not taking any stand. This would be a good position for a killer to be in. The innocents would think that he is on their side and the necros might think that he is their creature. I don't think that there is enough to lynch Ruse but I would like him to come forward and stop being such a middle of the road player.

Ok I have to step off and go back to work.

[Liosan]

Without the quotes even i think thats a mess and that is going on in my head. Sorry if that is very hard to respond to but it is very hard to explain in a way that will make sense to others. That though in essence is why i do not trust you and think you are a necro. The cf issue is what concerned me most on read through, after we lost the cf i made my rant (which earned me a pm) and then tried to continue playing without it. You seemed fixated on it, and from past experience if someone discusses something to death it is because they are somehow closely linked to it in some way.

I think it is up to people to decide, they can try and read my big case and see where i am coming from or they can look at your answers to just the bullet points i have made. for me both are compelling enough to warrant the vote.

[Liosan]

@meanas - No today and yesterday evening where the first quiet days i have had to be able to play. Cheeky git I am in work an extra hour tonight though to make up for my being out of the office tomorrow so i would like to hear from ano again before i leave.

[Anomandaris]

Liosan, on Jan 27 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Reformatted to make it easier to read.

Ok, now sadly in order to understand the case you have to read my actual case because it does link each of these points in a way that shows were the actual leaps of intuition, and my use of logic come into play, but i see for almost all of these a good and solid defence. Each taken on their own they are not that bad. After reading your responses, for me the main points now are point 1, 5 and 8. And for this you are going to have to defend against were reasoning and gut are the main focus. If its any consolation, this is me being reasonable.

The vote for galayn lord i didnt realise that was after the lynch, my mistake, i assume it was between the time of the last vote and the lynch scene?

The harder to define and less easy to defend part of the argument goes as follows and this is how i see in my mind the scenario played out.

day 1 - I made a case on serc, which resulted in an inno being lynched.
night 1 - the creature targets emurlahn and the killers target fener (according to kessogoth).
early day 2 - (note) this could have occured day 1, feel free to correct me as i am unsure of the exact time. Kessobahn cites fener and kaschan as possible suspects for necromancers. Fener is recruited and follows his new master into a vote. Anomandaris follows fener in a vote straight after and then kaschan joins in and shadow too.
late day 2 - kessobahn reveals, implying that fener is a necromancer! Galayn lord votes for kessobahn. Both anomandaris and kaschan refrain from voting, stating that they wish to allow fener time to explain himself.

1 vote Galain (Fener)
1 vote Silanah (Shadow)
1 vote Tennes (Kaschan)
10 vote Fener (Kessobahn, Ruse, Galayn Lord, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas, D'riss, Mockra, Ampelas, Korlat)
1 vote Galayn Lord (Omtose)


night 2 - ampelas and kessobahn both die. We lose our cf. Now at this point in our game many are wondering why they didnt recruit the cf. This was before any link was made between ano and fener, but there was a link between fener and kaschan made by our medium.

day 3 - train builds on kaschan citing loss of cf as prove of his guilt. galayn defends kaschan. anomandaris votes for galayn lord (after the lynch it is noted) Ano claims cf loss is to blind us and lead us on a train of thought.

8 vote for Kaschan (Korlat, Silanah, Omtose, Thyrllan, Shadow, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas)
1 votes for Tennes (Rashan)
1 vote for Mockra (Anomandaris)

1 late vote for galayn (ano)

Night 3 - no one dies. possible witch bp, possibly 2 recruits.

day 4 - train builds on galayn lord. ano makes three strong cases on shadow silanah and omtose. Ano agrees with the galayn case, but never votes for galayn

1 vote for Anomandaris (Galayn Lord)
8 vote for Galayn Lord (Liosan, Omtose, Meanas, Hood's Path, Korlat, Shadow, D'riss, Rashan)
1 vote for Shadow (Anomandaris)

Ano makes point about the double voters indicating how to find them.

night 5 - korlat dies (worth noting that korlat is one of three players on every lynch so far and thus a good candidate for double voter)

I think ano, you didnt recruit kessobahn because looking back at day 2, you were too closing linked with fener (point 8 above). If people hadnt of been so hung up on the morgoth suspicions for kaschan then you would have been the lynch that day. Had you come back guilty it would have garaunteed a kaschan lynch the next day. Seeing kaschan going done you made a reluctant case on who you suspected was your creature but it was too late and you ended up voting after the lynch completed.

The next day on the back of your case and others galayn was on the chopping board, but now you are desperate, (hopefully the witch did use her bp) you havent got a recruit because we lynched fener and there were two nks on night 2 and none on night 3 and now your creature is facing death and so you make three large and very good cases on possible scum.

I might not have my priorities right, but i do think you are the final necro.

I acknowledge that you have this scenario planned out, but the only way I can really argue with it is to contest the points on which it is based, which I will do more of here.

I must seriously protest to your statement that I would have been the next on the block if Kaschan hadn't been around. There was pretty much no suspicion on me whatsoever until I started kicking up a fuss on Kaschan. That drew a huge amount of attention to me that lead to you going back and finding the evidence you did about voting patterns. Were I scum, it would be hard to deny that pressing the point about Kaschan being inno was an incredibly reckless and possibly suicidal strategy to adopt.


Regarding me pointing out how to find a double voter: I realised that there must have been one on the GL train, so I said so. What I provided added almost no information that was not available from the train on Kaschan - the only thing it did do was say that Hood's Path and Thyrllan were not double voters. Believe me, there was a lot more information on double voters that I could have provided if I had been trying to feed scum information. Incidentally, there would have been no point in me feeding information to anybody if all your assumptions were true - the only person a Necro would feed info to would be his creature, but you claim the creature is already dead.

Regarding me making "a reluctant case on who you suspected was your creature but it was too late and you ended up voting after the lynch completed." I should point out that Meanas was the one who made the case, not me. I agreed with his case, and changed my vote accordingly as it was a much stronger case than the one that led to my vote on Mockra earlier in the day. As I have said so many times already, I didn't see the merit in a Kaschan lynch. An alternative came along that I agreed with, so I went with that. As it happened, someone had already hammered Kaschan so my vote came between the hammer and the night scene.

Regarding my desperation leading me to make those cases against Silanah, Omtose and Shadow, note that I said before the end of Night 3 that I would be making those cases the following day. Given that I made that decision then, it's pretty much impossible that I was provoked into doing so by a witch using her BP.

I need to go and check the timings on early Day 2, but assuming they are as you say they are, would it really make sense for Kaschan and Fener to vote together after they'd been linked to each other already by Kessobahn? Seems like after something like that they would probably try and distance themselves from each other...

[Mockra]

okay, meanas already took a look at Ruse

here's D'riss' last post. like me, he missed the Kas lynch in its entirety, here's his last comment, made about 24 hours ago

D'riss, on Jan 26 2009, 11:26 AM, said:

Phew, busy as hell and lots to read, but now I'm up to date.

Several cases on GL but the last one by Liosan drove the final nail in the coffin

Vote Galayn Lord

Now for a look at Anomandaris, will be back soon hopefully, with something constructive.

it'd be nice to hear something more from him

[Liosan]

Anomandaris, on Jan 27 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

Liosan, on Jan 27 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Reformatted to make it easier to read.

Ok, now sadly in order to understand the case you have to read my actual case because it does link each of these points in a way that shows were the actual leaps of intuition, and my use of logic come into play, but i see for almost all of these a good and solid defence. Each taken on their own they are not that bad. After reading your responses, for me the main points now are point 1, 5 and 8. And for this you are going to have to defend against were reasoning and gut are the main focus. If its any consolation, this is me being reasonable.

The vote for galayn lord i didnt realise that was after the lynch, my mistake, i assume it was between the time of the last vote and the lynch scene?

The harder to define and less easy to defend part of the argument goes as follows and this is how i see in my mind the scenario played out.

day 1 - I made a case on serc, which resulted in an inno being lynched.
night 1 - the creature targets emurlahn and the killers target fener (according to kessogoth).
early day 2 - (note) this could have occured day 1, feel free to correct me as i am unsure of the exact time. Kessobahn cites fener and kaschan as possible suspects for necromancers. Fener is recruited and follows his new master into a vote. Anomandaris follows fener in a vote straight after and then kaschan joins in and shadow too.
late day 2 - kessobahn reveals, implying that fener is a necromancer! Galayn lord votes for kessobahn. Both anomandaris and kaschan refrain from voting, stating that they wish to allow fener time to explain himself.

1 vote Galain (Fener)
1 vote Silanah (Shadow)
1 vote Tennes (Kaschan)
10 vote Fener (Kessobahn, Ruse, Galayn Lord, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas, D'riss, Mockra, Ampelas, Korlat)
1 vote Galayn Lord (Omtose)


night 2 - ampelas and kessobahn both die. We lose our cf. Now at this point in our game many are wondering why they didnt recruit the cf. This was before any link was made between ano and fener, but there was a link between fener and kaschan made by our medium.

day 3 - train builds on kaschan citing loss of cf as prove of his guilt. galayn defends kaschan. anomandaris votes for galayn lord (after the lynch it is noted) Ano claims cf loss is to blind us and lead us on a train of thought.

8 vote for Kaschan (Korlat, Silanah, Omtose, Thyrllan, Shadow, Liosan, Hood's Path, Meanas)
1 votes for Tennes (Rashan)
1 vote for Mockra (Anomandaris)

1 late vote for galayn (ano)

Night 3 - no one dies. possible witch bp, possibly 2 recruits.

day 4 - train builds on galayn lord. ano makes three strong cases on shadow silanah and omtose. Ano agrees with the galayn case, but never votes for galayn

1 vote for Anomandaris (Galayn Lord)
8 vote for Galayn Lord (Liosan, Omtose, Meanas, Hood's Path, Korlat, Shadow, D'riss, Rashan)
1 vote for Shadow (Anomandaris)

Ano makes point about the double voters indicating how to find them.

night 5 - korlat dies (worth noting that korlat is one of three players on every lynch so far and thus a good candidate for double voter)

I think ano, you didnt recruit kessobahn because looking back at day 2, you were too closing linked with fener (point 8 above). If people hadnt of been so hung up on the morgoth suspicions for kaschan then you would have been the lynch that day. Had you come back guilty it would have garaunteed a kaschan lynch the next day. Seeing kaschan going done you made a reluctant case on who you suspected was your creature but it was too late and you ended up voting after the lynch completed.

The next day on the back of your case and others galayn was on the chopping board, but now you are desperate, (hopefully the witch did use her bp) you havent got a recruit because we lynched fener and there were two nks on night 2 and none on night 3 and now your creature is facing death and so you make three large and very good cases on possible scum.

I might not have my priorities right, but i do think you are the final necro.

I acknowledge that you have this scenario planned out, but the only way I can really argue with it is to contest the points on which it is based, which I will do more of here.

I must seriously protest to your statement that I would have been the next on the block if Kaschan hadn't been around. There was pretty much no suspicion on me whatsoever until I started kicking up a fuss on Kaschan. That drew a huge amount of attention to me that lead to you going back and finding the evidence you did about voting patterns. Were I scum, it would be hard to deny that pressing the point about Kaschan being inno was an incredibly reckless and possibly suicidal strategy to adopt.


Regarding me pointing out how to find a double voter: I realised that there must have been one on the GL train, so I said so. What I provided added almost no information that was not available from the train on Kaschan - the only thing it did do was say that Hood's Path and Thyrllan were not double voters. Believe me, there was a lot more information on double voters that I could have provided if I had been trying to feed scum information. Incidentally, there would have been no point in me feeding information to anybody if all your assumptions were true - the only person a Necro would feed info to would be his creature, but you claim the creature is already dead.

Regarding me making "a reluctant case on who you suspected was your creature but it was too late and you ended up voting after the lynch completed." I should point out that Meanas was the one who made the case, not me. I agreed with his case, and changed my vote accordingly as it was a much stronger case than the one that led to my vote on Mockra earlier in the day. As I have said so many times already, I didn't see the merit in a Kaschan lynch. An alternative came along that I agreed with, so I went with that. As it happened, someone had already hammered Kaschan so my vote came between the hammer and the night scene.

Regarding my desperation leading me to make those cases against Silanah, Omtose and Shadow, note that I said before the end of Night 3 that I would be making those cases the following day. Given that I made that decision then, it's pretty much impossible that I was provoked into doing so by a witch using her BP.

I need to go and check the timings on early Day 2, but assuming they are as you say they are, would it really make sense for Kaschan and Fener to vote together after they'd been linked to each other already by Kessobahn? Seems like after something like that they would probably try and distance themselves from each other...

You see tha is why i did the first case first, because its the logical one That one is what is going on in my brain behind the scenes and so possibly just coincidence and interpretation.

I do think i am right though.

As for the double voter, korlat had voted toward the suspected necro's, just because the creature is dead doesnt mean you didnt want to give hints to the scum, you are still trying to recruit, so pointing out who you think are likley double voters or even giving hints to the killers on the best way to determine it, sets them a target that night which you could mimic. I suggest you focus on the first case, but know this is where the reasoning behind it came from and this is the short version of what was in those 8 posts.

[Liosan]

Mockra, on Jan 27 2009, 04:53 PM, said:

okay, meanas already took a look at Ruse

here's D'riss' last post. like me, he missed the Kas lynch in its entirety, here's his last comment, made about 24 hours ago

D'riss, on Jan 26 2009, 11:26 AM, said:

Phew, busy as hell and lots to read, but now I'm up to date.

Several cases on GL but the last one by Liosan drove the final nail in the coffin

Vote Galayn Lord

Now for a look at Anomandaris, will be back soon hopefully, with something constructive.

it'd be nice to hear something more from him

Hopefully we arent heading for a third modkill, it doesnt take much to indicate in pm to pathshaper you are away for a day or to post in thread that an extended absence might occur.