[MTS]

I was exploring the wiki on a whim just before, and came across something that confused me. In RotCG and NoK there is mention of Amaron, a Fist in the 3rd Army (and commander/sub-commander of the Talon?). Yet in HoC or BH when Nok is talking about the early days of the Empire he mentions an Ameron as being one of four naval commanders (Urko, Crust, Nok and Ameron, I think). When reading RotCG I noticed that in SE's books Cartheron Crust is spelt like so, but in RotCG it is spelt Cartharon Crust. So that got me a little confused. There seems little doubt Crust is the same person, as in both series it is mentioned he's Urko's brother. But are Amaron and Ameron one and the same? Because the names are strikingly similar, and for them to be different people makes it quite confusing.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'd assume so, since "Amaron" is a Napan, and Old Guard. Pretty much guaranteed, I'd say.

[Benji]

Also, I think when Nok is talking about the early days, he only refers to Cartheron, Urko, Ameron and himself as Napan. Himself, Carthy and Uko are all described as naval commanders, but for some reason he doesn't say much about Ameron.

[amphibian]

Benji, on Jan 9 2009, 07:42 AM, said:

Also, I think when Nok is talking about the early days, he only refers to Cartheron, Urko, Ameron and himself as Napan. Himself, Carthy and Uko are all described as naval commanders, but for some reason he doesn't say much about Ameron.

Ameron was the day-to-day commander of the Talon, I believe. Spooks are always hated and usually stay out of the limelight.

[Benji]

Yah, my point was simply that Nok conveniently left Ameron's history open.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Ameron was only half-Napan. Does that mean anything.

[Lisheo]

Means one parent was Napan, and one was not.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Did Cartharon and Amaron really annoy anyone else? Is there any reason to change the spelling of character names?

[HoosierDaddy]

Dolorous Menhir, on Jan 10 2009, 11:18 AM, said:

Did Cartharon and Amaron really annoy anyone else? Is there any reason to change the spelling of character names?

As long as they don't mix and match "Dassem" and "Dessem" to further confuse nubes as to the Dessembrae-Dessimbelackis thingy I don't really care how they spell the names.

[Sinisdar Toste]

anyone notice that ICE spelt it cussors?

[Aptorian]

There's a ton of differences in the two's spelling. And in their depiction of characters.

[D'rek]

I'd say that Amaron and Ameron are probably different people. While being seen at different times as a high-ranking officer in both the land forces and the navy wouldn't be too strange (Cartheron Crust was a naval commander but later High Fist in Aren after the conquest), it would be strange for Ameron to be one of the top 4 naval commanders and then be dropped all the way down to sub-commander of one army. To reinforce this, in tBH, Admiral Nok gives Hellian a flask with the emblems of the flagships of the old top naval commanders and there are four. If Ameron was included in the Admirals making their own flask design, I find it hard to imagine he'd have been downgraded to sub-commander of the 3rd Army while Kellanved was still in charge...


And as for mis-spellings, you don't even have to find them between ICE and SE. In DG, Gamet's name is Gimlet for example...

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, maybe Dancer wanted the leader of his Talons to not be a high-fist for espionage reasons.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Sinisdar Toste, on Jan 11 2009, 08:15 AM, said:

anyone notice that ICE spelt it cussors?

That word gave me chronic diarrhea!

And Gamet/Gimlet was stated in HoC Dramatis Personae. So it wasn't a misspelling.

[Imperial Historian]

I'm sceptical of them being two different people, it's almost certainly a spelling mistake developed from two writers who only ever talked about characters and didn't write them down to establish spelling.

It's not inconcievable that the man ameron could have been involved with both the talon, the army and the navy, he joined the family at the same time as Nok and Hawl as part of the same crew. As a talon I'd imagine he'd be trying to disguise his role, and so end up in various positions in the navy and army where we find mentions of him.

I don't think even Erikson would come up with 3 different characters with extremely simmilar names in 3 different postions, it's much more likely that ameron was moving from position to position.

One interesting thing is that ameron's disappearance occured after cartherons, which occured after dassem,dancer and kel's deaths... and importantly after the talons apparent elimination, so either no-one knew ameron was a talon, or he was unique among the talons of surviving the talon eliminations and still be part of the empire.. before disappearing himself.

[Dolorous Menhir]

D'rek, on Jan 11 2009, 03:57 AM, said:

I'd say that Amaron and Ameron are probably different people. While being seen at different times as a high-ranking officer in both the land forces and the navy wouldn't be too strange (Cartheron Crust was a naval commander but later High Fist in Aren after the conquest), it would be strange for Ameron to be one of the top 4 naval commanders and then be dropped all the way down to sub-commander of one army. To reinforce this, in tBH, Admiral Nok gives Hellian a flask with the emblems of the flagships of the old top naval commanders and there are four. If Ameron was included in the Admirals making their own flask design, I find it hard to imagine he'd have been downgraded to sub-commander of the 3rd Army while Kellanved was still in charge...

Demotions have been frequently seen in the books. The most relevant example here would be Whiskeyjack.

[D'rek]

Dolorous Menhir, on Jan 11 2009, 08:28 AM, said:

Demotions have been frequently seen in the books. The most relevant example here would be Whiskeyjack.

Well sure, but Whiskeyjack was only demoted once Laseen had taken the throne because she wanted to minimize his influence since he was a potential rival and all that. Ameron would've gone from Supreme Admiral (or something like that) to sub-Commander before even Dassem died...

[HoosierDaddy]

I see it as varioius guises of the Talon leader.

[Benji]

D'rek, on Jan 11 2009, 05:45 PM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on Jan 11 2009, 08:28 AM, said:

Demotions have been frequently seen in the books. The most relevant example here would be Whiskeyjack.

Well sure, but Whiskeyjack was only demoted once Laseen had taken the throne because she wanted to minimize his influence since he was a potential rival and all that. Ameron would've gone from Supreme Admiral (or something like that) to sub-Commander before even Dassem died...

Actually, Laseen apparently did the demotions because she wanted the important people on ground level where they could have a bigger influence or something. Whiskeyjack and Dujek talk about it in MoI

[HoosierDaddy]

The infamous "inverted command structure." Doesn't really have anything to do with the "Old Guard" though, they drowned as soon as she took over.