[Aptorian]

Nicodimas, on Apr 23 2009, 07:00 AM, said:

An energy shield could be feasible something lightweight think Dune. The Israelis made one for a tank a couple years back that directed energy at incoming RPG's blowing them up before they got to the tank.

Wut? That sounds awesome!

Like that new mobile laser that the American Army is currently field testing. It actually works. Laser Weapons! I am living in the future.

[cauthon]

Sparkimus, on Jan 6 2009, 12:33 AM, said:

Kevlar is a suitable replacement, though it only covers your vitals, excluding your head. The problem with that is, it's expensive, so much so that the families of soldier are having to provide them with it, the military just doesn't find the average soldier valuable enough to warrant supplying them. Sad really.

You got to be kidding me?!

[cauthon]

Nicodimas, on Apr 23 2009, 07:00 AM, said:

An energy shield could be feasible something lightweight think Dune. The Israelis made one for a tank a couple years back that directed energy at incoming RPG's blowing them up before they got to the tank.

Think Miles Teg.

[Aptorian]

Regarding the body armor idea, I finally found an article on the guy with the bear suit:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070927194536/...l=1014656511815

Quote

From bears to bullets

[img]http://web.archive.org/web/20070927194536/http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/images/hs/hs1558762_1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://web.archive.org/web/20070927194536/http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/images/hs/hs1558762_2.jpg[/img]

Inventor hopes to sell armour suit to the military
By Wade Hemsworth
The Hamilton Spectator
(Jan 11, 2007)

The grizzly man is back, and this time he's ready to take on bullets and bombs.

Troy Hurtubise, the Hamilton-born inventor who became famous for his bulky bear-protection suit by standing in front of a moving vehicle to prove it worked, has now created a much slimmer suit that he hopes will soon be protecting Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

He has spent two years and $15,000 in the lab out back of his house in North Bay, designing and building a practical, lightweight and affordable shell to stave off bullets, explosives, knives and clubs. He calls it the Trojan and describes it as the "first ballistic, full exoskeleton body suit of armour."

Using the hard-learned lessons of his Project Grizzly experience -- a 20-year odyssey that included a National Film Board documentary, an appearance on CNN and personal bankruptcy -- he's ready to start selling his newest idea.

Already, he says, the suit has stood up to bullets from high-powered weapons, including an elephant gun. The suit was empty during the ballistics tests, but he's more than ready to put it on and face live fire.

"I would do it in an instant," he said. "Bring it on."

Yesterday, he returned to Hamilton to show off the suit, hoping to generate some publicity that will get him the meetings he wants with military and police outfitters.

On Saturday, he plans to wear it to Nathan Phillips Square in downtown Toronto and wait for the reporters. It shouldn't take long to create a stir.

Hurtubise, 43, wore his suit -- helmet and all -- on the four-hour drive down south, partly as a way of making sure it would be comfortable enough in the field. Even sitting on his armoured butt cheeks, he said he was fine.

As he drove his black pickup in his black getup, other drivers gawked and honked. Just south of Huntsville, he was delighted to be pulled over and gave an apprehensive OPP officer a close-up look at the suit.

Once he established that he could see just fine in his helmet and that the guns attached to his magnetic holsters were just props, Hurtubise was free to continue his trip.

The whole suit -- which draws design inspiration from Star Wars, RoboCop, Batman and video games -- is made from high-impact plastic lined with ceramic bullet protection over ballistic foam.

Its many features include compartments for emergency morphine and salt, a knife and emergency light. Built into the forearms are a small recording device, a pepper-spray gun and a detachable transponder that can be swallowed in case of trouble.

Dangling between the legs, that would be a clock.

In the helmet, there's a solar-powered fresh-air system and a drinking tube attached to a canteen in the small of the back. A laser pointer mounted in the middle of the forehead is ready to point to snipers, while LED lights frame the face.

The whole suit comes in at 18 kilograms. It covers everything but the fingertips and the major joints, and could be mass-produced for about $2,000, Hurtubise says.

He said he hopes to earn enough of a living from the suit so he can keep on inventing, but the real reason he did this, he says, is "for the boys."

[masan's saddle]

It doesn't look very manoeverable, quite clunky in fact. The chest area looks like it would be a problem bringing a shouldered weapon to a firing position. Also I don't think i'd like an LED display framing my face, makes too nice a target ! Whilst its quite light, its plastic/foam composition may well mean you'd sweat your balls off if you spent too long in it.

It's not a clock, it's an armoured codpiece !

Still it looks cool and I wouldn't be surprised if aspects of it were utilised, particularly by law enforcement, due to his claims of low cost.

Plus point. It may be able to stop the odd round.

Negative point. If he loses his weapon, he couldn't outrun a child with a sharp stick.

[Stradivarius]

as i see it, correct me if i'm wrong, sheilds were only usefull up until gunpowder projectiles were created ok ther is a case to state that they could have been continued to be used till they got really good but never the less they became an outdated sourse of protection as the nessesary protection of the sheild against gun fire out weighed well its weight.
the reason that you see the police and such like with shields these days is as a result of a reduced risk of gun fire, as few people will actually shoot at police, and that the number of people shooting significantly reduced, your average policeman in a protest has to worry about being hit with handy swingable objects not gunfire so the sheild, lightweight and capable of stopping such has come back inro fashion.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Mar 17 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

I believe some one, maybe earlier in this thread, remarked that a standard heavy duty west for a marine costs somewhere around 500.000 dollars or more to build. Personally I find this figure ridiculous and I bet it's typical Pentagon spending because private contractors get to set their own price.

But, even though new materials are always being discovered, making a marine bulletproof is not practical. Armor thick enough to take riffle fire and absorb the impact would be heavy as hell and would completely bog down a marine if he was covered from head to toe.

If cost were no factor there are companies that have made (and supposedly tested with people wearing them) bulletproof cloth and clothing that is nearly as flexible as your everyday clothes. I think one such company is Junantai for example. But of course that stuff is very, very expensive and most governments just don't have the money to outfit every soldier with that kind of gear, unfortunately, so its not financially practical, but it is practical other than that.

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on May 18 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Mar 17 2009, 11:34 AM, said:

I believe some one, maybe earlier in this thread, remarked that a standard heavy duty west for a marine costs somewhere around 500.000 dollars or more to build. Personally I find this figure ridiculous and I bet it's typical Pentagon spending because private contractors get to set their own price.

But, even though new materials are always being discovered, making a marine bulletproof is not practical. Armor thick enough to take riffle fire and absorb the impact would be heavy as hell and would completely bog down a marine if he was covered from head to toe.

If cost were no factor there are companies that have made (and supposedly tested with people wearing them) bulletproof cloth and clothing that is nearly as flexible as your everyday clothes. I think one such company is Junantai for example. But of course that stuff is very, very expensive and most governments just don't have the money to outfit every soldier with that kind of gear, unfortunately, so its not financially practical, but it is practical other than that.

I would like to read something about that.

It doesn't sound like it's a realistic idea to have bulletproof clothes. While you might be able to string together some kind of superfibers that will stop the bullet from penetrating the body, the kinetic punch of the impact I would imagine would still do terrible things to you if there was only that bullet proof clothes thin layer between you and the bullet.

[Cause]

Goverments have the money but they crunched the numbers, calculated the risk to reward and dont bother. Pilots have ejector seats not because they are cheap but because it takes years to train one, months to build another plane. Yes the pilots training is expensive but the plane is still more.

[Obdigore]

Nicodimas, on Apr 23 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

Cusser is completely right about delivering the hits first. Also current military doctrine states you send at least three times as many people that they have at them.

Also full armor/shields would probably become pretty nasty when a soldier gets blown up...

An energy shield could be feasible something lightweight think Dune. The Israelis made one for a tank a couple years back that directed energy at incoming RPG's blowing them up before they got to the tank.

Do you have a link to this or something? I heard that the US were attempting to use a 'heat-gun' to melt targetting systems on guided rockets, but I have heard of nothing of some sort of Israeli Energy Shield.

[Soulessdreamer]

Israili Tank defense system

http://defense-updat...ts/t/trophy.htm

TTFN

[Jusentantaka]

Aptorian, on 18 May 2009 - 06:27 PM, said:

QUOTE (D'rek @ May 18 2009, 08:19 PM) QUOTE (Aptorian @ Mar 17 2009, 11:34 AM) I believe some one, maybe earlier in this thread, remarked that a standard heavy duty west for a marine costs somewhere around 500.000 dollars or more to build. Personally I find this figure ridiculous and I bet it's typical Pentagon spending because private contractors get to set their own price.

But, even though new materials are always being discovered, making a marine bulletproof is not practical. Armor thick enough to take riffle fire and absorb the impact would be heavy as hell and would completely bog down a marine if he was covered from head to toe.

necrothredidity, but whatever. The ceramic plates in body armor can stop multiple 7.62mm (AK-47) rounds from penetrating. And while it hurts, the soldier isnt likely to get knocked down, and wont be down on the ground with 6 shattered ribs and a punctured lung due to the impact force, unable to fight back. And the whole kit the marines use(d) is only around 75-100 pounds, well balanced and such, so the typical in-shape soldier is not going to have a big short term mobility problem with that. If someone needs to go ten miles, they get in a humvee/apc/helicopter.

Quote

If cost were no factor there are companies that have made (andsupposedly tested with people wearing them) bulletproof cloth andclothing that is nearly as flexible as your everyday clothes. I thinkone such company is Junantai for example. But of course that stuff isvery, very expensive and most governments just don't have the money tooutfit every soldier with that kind of gear, unfortunately, so its notfinancially practical, but it is practical other than that.

Isnt that the stuff that's tailor-made for your average columbian drug lord?

[Phael]

Well, I don't consider myself an authority or anything like that, but I've got a bit of relevant experience reference use of shields in modern warfare....

I was in the British Army for 8 1/2 years and have used shields in Northern Ireland on crowd (read 'riot') control and used both types of body armour in Iraq and Afghanistan (lightweight Combat Body Armour and the much heavier Osprey). My personal feeling is that sheilds have there place, but to use them in Afghanistan would be massively impractical. The plates for the Osprey, the armour that can stop a 7.72 round, weigh a fucking ton! To use that same kit to build a sheild which would need to be probably 4 foot by 2 1/2 foot would make it near impossible to carry for the average bloke. Armour protection is afforded us by the armoured vehicles we use and in a live fire fight we would generally bug out or fight through, in a dismounted fight through situation mobility would be much more important than the protection of a massive, heavy and unweildy shield. Thats all just my opinion but I'm sure most squaddies would concur. All that said, for riot control you cant beat a shield and baton with your mates backing you up with rifles, and you feel pretty nails shrugging off petrol bombs

Regards the tank that can detonate RPG before it hits the vehicle, the Brits tried a similar system, it used Ultra High Frequency radio waves to trip the detonator inside the RPG, hence would be useless against a lump of lead coming at you at high speed. So back to the drawing board on the one-man energy shield

[Jusentantaka]

Hmm. I was under the impression that all that was different between the british and american armors was the shape/pattern, and that it was the same material underneath. Wikipedia says that be untrue.

Quote

The standard size of a one man musket was 91 caliaber or .91 of an inchand would remove entire limbs. The biggest killer as with todays gunswas hydostatic shock which is what kevlar is designed to absorb(penitration being a whole other issue handeled by plate inserts). Oldfashioned armour could not prevent penitration and did nothing toabsord or stop hydrostatic shock was uncomfortable, constricting,slowed movement and above all cost lots of money in both manufactureand maintainece so was abandoned.

I forgot to laugh at this before, so I shall now. Have you ever fired a musket before? Seriously. a .91 musket ball would weigh around a quarter of a pound, depending on what you made it out of and firing that standing up would break your shoulder unless you were Olympic-bodybuilder huge, which malnourished british/french/squarehead infantry certainly were not. Plus, the gun would weigh far too much to even hold it upright to fire without a stand.

Standard european musket size was about .50 cal, depending on the gunsmith. And old fashioned armor could so stop a musket ball. That japanese general got shot something like 7? times and the shot didnt penetrate to kill him. The other guys used european muskets. And he was wearing steel not much different than the stuff the Spanish were capable of making in. And Cuirasses or however you spell it for 18th-19th C cavalry were proofed against a point blank pistol shot. If the bullet did anything more than make a dent, they'd start over again with a new one, so at more than say 30? yards/meters a fullsize musket wouldn't penetrate either.

[Phael]

Jusentantaka, on 29 October 2009 - 04:10 PM, said:

Hmm. I was under the impression that all that was different between the british and american armors was the shape/pattern, and that it was the same material underneath. Wikipedia says that be untrue.

I've never used the US kit but I've seen a few lads wearing it around the airfield and it looks a comparable weight, and from how much they were blowing out of the arses I'd reckon it must be (unless they were ridiculously out of shape). There is more lightweight armour in use out here, primarily by contractors and special forces teams, however its not rated to take a 7.72 round its purely shrapnel protection for IED attacks and is used for the easier mobility.

[Jusentantaka]

Ah. I see the problem with my having the weights wrong. My brother says I'm stupid and didnt take into account that his is four years old and not the current tank on legs variety of armor. (though the ceramics still 'stop' 7.62's)

I don't know if it is depressing or nerd-tech-cool that people are wearing armor that weighs only ten pounds less than I do. Kind of both I think.

and you keep saying 7.72. typo? or am I stupid?

[Phael]

Jusentantaka, on 30 October 2009 - 02:08 PM, said:

Ah. I see the problem with my having the weights wrong. My brother says I'm stupid and didnt take into account that his is four years old and not the current tank on legs variety of armor. (though the ceramics still 'stop' 7.62's)

I don't know if it is depressing or nerd-tech-cool that people are wearing armor that weighs only ten pounds less than I do. Kind of both I think.

and you keep saying 7.72. typo? or am I stupid?

No, you're right, I always get mixed up about them as I was just a rifle man so I used 5.56, very rare I got my hands on a 7.62 weapon system

[Euler]

As many have already pointed out, mobility is much more favourable then a heavy and impractical shield or body armor. Also shields in particular dont protect you much better against grenades and rockets

I have only tried heavy body armor on once, armor that could stop 7.76round point blank(supposedly) but that thing(plates in it) weighed a friggin ton and it would be damn near impossible to fight in that kind of armor unless u are he-man. Of course they might have some better armor nowdays.

maybe when some more sci fi gear comes out like powerd exoskeletons that will make it practical to wear heavy armor and still maintain high mobility.

[jagsa]

Yay lets take away the little humanity left we have in wars these day and send in robo-cop. But this time hes brought friends 0_0. But in all truths at this rate we really will be sending in automated soldiers like in surrogate. At what point does it no longer become what we know as war.

[Cause]

I think were actually starting to see a shift in mentallity from offense to defence that we have not seen for a very long time. Armour for tanks and ships is finaally starting to gain some ground against the weapon they face. The shield Nicodimas mentions, guns that literally shoot missiles out of the sky. Enhanced countermeasures and flares. Shotguns on tanks which literaally shoot rpgs out of the air. Perhaps 'shields' are coming back in fashion