[Obdigore]

foolio, on Feb 27 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

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You have to also take into account with the whole Wickan pogrom, that it gave the people of the empire a target, a group of people to blame for everything that went wrong in 7c. It's not just a land grab, it's a focus for the mobs rage.

I understand where you are coming from but the whole thing seems so misguided. Coltaine was only shipped to the 7 C because there was a revolt about to break loose. So how can anyone logically believe that he was the leader of the insurrection? How can you blame people who are not even in the 7Cs? Most of the Wickan population is on Quan Tali, the wickans in 7 Cs were only there to help stem an insurrectioon that was already about to explode because of Laseen the misguided promoting idiots like Pormaqual. This whole mess is her fault. Before you counter with all the qualified old guard were "drowning" I will say she was hunting them down and killing them, so its her fault as well that she is alone. It seems to me it is ALL HER FAULT.

Mob think isn't logical.

Laseen's only mistake, her ONLY mistake, was underestimating Mallick Rel. That is it.

[L'oric]

Obdigore, on Feb 27 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

Laseen's only mistake, her ONLY mistake, was underestimating Mallick Rel. That is it.

Oh I am sure I can come up with more than that.
-Pormqual as Fist of Aren.
-Korbolo Dom should have been taken out by the claw a long time ago.
-The systematic killing off of every old guard Empire elite that didn't drown themselves.
(this could have a myriad of parts from Bridgeburners to Admirals to High Mages)
-The divestiture of Greymane because he sued for peace.
-An ill needed front on Genebackis when you are not done with Korel. Any moron knows you do not fight on more than one front. Thats right up there with never getting involved in a land war over Asia.

Thats just the what I can come up with off the top of my head version. Now maybe everyone else doesn't see them as mistakes but I sure do. She's perfect for clawmaster and horrid at just about everything else. I wish she would have had some grand scheme that proved how brilliant she was. I always held out hope.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Remember what Leoman said?

"She is not immune to certain...grave errors in judgement."

Still, while she was quite unfathomable, Kellanved was way better.

[Aptorian]

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

-Pormqual as Fist of Aren.

Pormqual was obviously a political placement. Coming up through the system inside Arens administration. You can't expect Lasseen to know and control everything that takes place in her empire and she doesn't have the ability to read anyones mind. If she had reports that Pormqual was doing okay, making sure money came in as expected, no uprisings, etc. then there'sno need to replace him.

This is like saying the primeminister is a bad priminister because one of his ministers does something stupid.

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

-Korbolo Dom should have been taken out by the claw a long time ago.

Why? Up untill the revolt he was a Malazan fist. One of the last good ones. He also had a network of claws working for him which probably helped him cover up his actions in the preperation of the revolt.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the claw agents that didn't sniff out the bastard and delivered the intelligense that Lasseen needed.

Do you blame a president for being unknowing, if the FBI isn't able to come up with the information he needs? (don't bring up bush)

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

-The systematic killing off of every old guard Empire elite that didn't drown themselves.
(this could have a myriad of parts from Bridgeburners to Admirals to High Mages)

If you're taking the seat of an empire you get rid of those that threatens your hold of the empire and could potentially cause problems later on, like say starting a war on succession on Quon Tali.

Most of the Old Guard seems to have disappeared how ever on their own accord, not been removed. Meaning they knew what was coming if they couldn't get with the programme.

According to tay the BBs were to be protected by getting digging duty, they weren't ment to die at Pale. I believe him.

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

-The divestiture of Greymane because he sued for peace.

Who cares about one renegade fist? Just because you know him from the book, doesn't mean that Lasseen has mushy feelings for the guy. He was an officer that disobeyed orders and further confused matters in a military campaign. That's unheard of anywhere. Off with his head.

L'oric, on Feb 28 2009, 03:13 AM, said:

-An ill needed front on Genebackis when you are not done with Korel. Any moron knows you do not fight on more than one front. Thats right up there with never getting involved in a land war over Asia.

Korelri wasn't a major engagement. More like a gentle prod, finding out what was going on, probably acting on account of some merchant/military alliance with another nation.

[HoosierDaddy]

Without the war on Genebackis, there is no Moranth Alliance. Bye bye Malazan armies!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That has nothing to do with Laseen. The allaince was made during Kellanved's Reign.

[L'oric]

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Aptorian-Pormqual was obviously a political placement. Coming up through the system inside Arens administration. You can't expect Lasseen to know and control everything that takes place in her empire and she doesn't have the ability to read anyones mind. If she had reports that Pormqual was doing okay, making sure money came in as expected, no uprisings, etc. then there'sno need to replace him.

This is like saying the primeminister is a bad priminister because one of his ministers does something stupid.

I won't mention Bush in anything since I do not believe she was that bad. But let me say the best saying for this type of apologistic theory "The buck stops here."

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Why? Up untill the revolt he was a Malazan fist. One of the last good ones. He also had a network of claws working for him which probably helped him cover up his actions in the preperation of the revolt.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the claw agents that didn't sniff out the bastard and delivered the intelligense that Lasseen needed.

Do you blame a president for being unknowing, if the FBI isn't able to come up with the information he needs? (don't bring up bush)

It was her claws...she was the freaking Clawmaster...if she can not choose which claws could make sure her empire is running correctly she sure as hell couldn't pick an able administrator or a credible Fist that was to be buriend in Seven Cities because he was not good enough to be anywhere else. Else he would have been in Genebackis.

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If you're taking the seat of an empire you get rid of those that threatens your hold of the empire and could potentially cause problems later on, like say starting a war on succession on Quon Tali.
Most of the Old Guard seems to have disappeared how ever on their own accord, not been removed. Meaning they knew what was coming if they couldn't get with the programme.
According to tay the BBs were to be protected by getting digging duty, they weren't ment to die at Pale. I believe him.

From Possum's viewpoint during the execution of the last high mage Laseen has indeed killed more than has disappeared or "drowned."
If it was such good policy to kill all potential problems then the next time a first born is prophecised to kill the king we should kill all first borns...Yeah that always works as planned. You reap what you sow. In trying to prevent the uprising she started it. I got more platitudes for this one than I have space to print.
I want to believe Tay but that was not the only action that the BB's were winnowed on. They might not have been meant to be wiped out but they were meant to be slowly and inexorably tried by continous engangements.

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Who cares about one renegade fist? Just because you know him from the book, doesn't mean that Lasseen has mushy feelings for the guy. He was an officer that disobeyed orders and further confused matters in a military campaign. That's unheard of anywhere. Off with his head.

Obviously she should haved cared about the last great commander that inspired his legions outside of WJ and Dujek especially when they were "decommisioned" If anyone was to be groomed as First Sword it was Greymane. The Malazan Empire soldier we are constantly told thinks for himself. She should have seen the light and agreed with him because he was her commander in the field. All treaties could be surveyed at a later date for renegotiation anyway.

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Korelri wasn't a major engagement. More like a gentle prod, finding out what was going on, probably acting on account of some merchant/military alliance with another nation.

If you lose more than one fleet of ships and are bogged down with an army on a brand new continent then a gentle prod is more of an argumentative lessening of the facts in my view. But like I have said before its ok to disagree. The different viewpoints are good for discussion.


Sincerely

[HoosierDaddy]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Feb 28 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

That has nothing to do with Laseen. The allaince was made during Kellanved's Reign.

Did you bother reading what I was responding too, or did you just want to throw that out here? L'oric was blaming Laseen for the invasion of Genebackis while a front on Korel still existed. Now, either a) L'oric should be blaming Kellenved for that, or b] L'oric should be praising Laseen for the alliance. Can't have it both ways.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 28 February 2009 - 05:35 PM

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 28 2009, 10:35 AM, said:

Ain't_It_Just_, on Feb 28 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

That has nothing to do with Laseen. The allaince was made during Kellanved's Reign.

Did you bother reading what I was responding too, or did you just want to throw that out here? L'oric was blaming Laseen for the invasion of Genebackis while a front on Korel still existed. Now, either a) L'oric should be blaming Kellenved for that, or b] L'oric should be praising Laseen for the alliance. Can't have it both ways.

Damn I can't have it both ways? How about this then...I will give the exception to the rule to Kellanved, Dancer, and Dassem since they have the Midas touch, but I will reserve the rule of never start a land war in Asia for Laseen.

I did blame Laseen for the invasion of Genebackis when I should have been blaming her for its floundering through lack of support and ill advised culling of high mages. Whereas the campaign must have been in its infancy during the time of Kellanveds reign it was full force during Laseen's. As Apt put the attack on Korel the attacks on Genebackis were...exploratory up till then. At least I thought so. I do not have my History major yet.

I thought the timeline (which is not important) was Kellanved and Dancer leave the Empire to its own devices for a few years. During that time Surly moved to consolidate power by killing off Dassem and preparing for their return. Around this same time that they are "gone" but still emperor and confidante the Genebackis campaign is begun with the adding of the Moranth occuring at its very onset. Surly assumes the Throne on the NoK and then begins an all out assault on Genebackis with the BB's and Dujek at the front. Mired there for the next 8 years she sits back and never has a brilliant idea until Pale falls and the Pannion domin force her to "make peace" with Darujhistan. Why couldnt she make peace for expedience in Korel BTW? See what I mean?

She is a flawed ruler. Do I dislike her as a character? No. She just was not any good at what she was doing. Unless of course as I have said before there is one final ST/Cot like moment that she meant to be killed in the end in order to Ascend. Then she at least had a plan. Not a good one, but a plan.

Sincerely

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Maybe the fact that she was an assassin had something to do with her incompetence.

[foolio]

I am absolutely mind boggled that intelligent folks see this so differently. I, obviously agree with L'oric, and for the life of me, cant see how people consider Laseen a good ruler. She has the morality of Stalin and yet none of the effectiveness...She stole an empire that was a smooth running machine, with some moral capital in its bank account , and when she was assasinated by a traitors pawn, she left an empire that was drastically weakened with revolt throughout, even on the home continent. I suppose we all agree to disagree, becasue I certainly can see it no other way.

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If you're taking the seat of an empire you get rid of those that threatens your hold of the empire and could potentially cause problems later on, like say starting a war on succession on Quon Tali.

Most of the Old Guard seems to have disappeared how ever on their own accord, not been removed. Meaning they knew what was coming if they couldn't get with the programme.

she set the presedent before they started dissapearing, she did attempt to kill DU early in the game. I think you would be a fool to stick around and expect fair treatment from the most ethically challenged charcter in the entire series, Surly. (To put it in perspective I like Mallick Rel as emperor infinately more than Surly.) Did you see any evidence of DU having an opportunity to "get with the programme?" You are making it sound like she was known for reaching out to people and would forgive and forget if people stepped to the company line.

[Obdigore]

foolio, on Mar 2 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

I am absolutely mind boggled that intelligent folks see this so differently. I, obviously agree with L'oric, and for the life of me, cant see how people consider Laseen a good ruler. She has the morality of Stalin and yet none of the effectiveness...She stole an empire that was a smooth running machine

You mean she was ruling the empire for years when dancer and kell went off hopping through the azath houses, and when they come back and they know they need to be assassinated, she does it for them? Yes, that is the very definition of stealing!

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with some moral capital in its bank account , and when she was assasinated by a traitors pawn, she left an empire that was drastically weakened with revolt throughout, even on the home continent. I suppose we all agree to disagree, becasue I certainly can see it no other way.

You are wrong. A ruler is only as good as those around them, and when noone has said anything bad about Dom, and then him and Mallick show up in Malaz City, probably brought in by Mallick's turned claw, and they claim that they have saved the entire thing by allowing the uprising then destroying the focal points, shattering it for all time. Pearl, the one person she trusted, never reported differently when it would have counted, because he was crying for losing Lostara.

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If you're taking the seat of an empire you get rid of those that threatens your hold of the empire and could potentially cause problems later on, like say starting a war on succession on Quon Tali.

Most of the Old Guard seems to have disappeared how ever on their own accord, not been removed. Meaning they knew what was coming if they couldn't get with the programme.

she set the presedent before they started dissapearing, she did attempt to kill DU early in the game. I think you would be a fool to stick around and expect fair treatment from the most ethically challenged charcter in the entire series, Surly. (To put it in perspective I like Mallick Rel as emperor infinately more than Surly.) Did you see any evidence of DU having an opportunity to "get with the programme?" You are making it sound like she was known for reaching out to people and would forgive and forget if people stepped to the company line.

Look, she forgave and brought back Urko, didn't she. Whereas Mallick Rel does horrible things, like the Wickan Progoms or the attempted turning for Mael, then blames the people around him and kills them.

Laseen was good for the empire. She kept people in line, and at times allowed the problems to bubble up then fixed them, getting rid of the ringleaders and the people behind it. She had everything in reach if she had not underestimated Mallick Rel's reach. That was her one mistake. She even offered Kalam the chance to take out Dom and Rel, and fix the issues right there, but he turned to help Tavore and the Eres'al, playing a bigger game than one mortal empire. Of course, Laseen was working with Shadowthrone and Cotillion to take care of their empire while they could not.

Do you really believe that the three of them were not working together for the 'takeover', but couldn't tell the old guard, so they all 'drowned'? I don't think so.

[Obdigore]

L'oric, on Feb 27 2009, 08:13 PM, said:

Obdigore, on Feb 27 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

Laseen's only mistake, her ONLY mistake, was underestimating Mallick Rel. That is it.

Oh I am sure I can come up with more than that.
-Pormqual as Fist of Aren.

When she has heard of nothing wrong, and everything seems to be going swimmingly for him, why not? As an aside, she didn't even realize the nobility had made extensive inroads into the army command structure until her Adjunct discovered it.

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-Korbolo Dom should have been taken out by the claw a long time ago.

Why? He was apparently loyal, and then very well might have been present to the empress by claw loyal to Mallick Rel, and talked up about how they destroyed the threat without the Adjunct's army being in a battle, and spin the killing of coltaine to their purposes as well. Laseen wasn't there, she only knows what she is told.

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-The systematic killing off of every old guard Empire elite that didn't drown themselves.
(this could have a myriad of parts from Bridgeburners to Admirals to High Mages)

Name the ones she did or ordered. Not one. Thats right, not a single one you can prove she ordered, besides Cot/Shadowthrone, who I think she was working with.

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-The divestiture of Greymane because he sued for peace.

And Angered the Koreli. She sacrificed one man for an entire subcontinent. You need to make these choices as the leader of an empire.

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-An ill needed front on Genebackis when you are not done with Korel. Any moron knows you do not fight on more than one front. Thats right up there with never getting involved in a land war over Asia.

She didn't begin it. She continued it since she was already invested.

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Thats just the what I can come up with off the top of my head version. Now maybe everyone else doesn't see them as mistakes but I sure do. She's perfect for clawmaster and horrid at just about everything else. I wish she would have had some grand scheme that proved how brilliant she was. I always held out hope.

So you don't have a single 'mistake' - just some difficult choices. She did have a grand scheme, everything was coming together, until she underestimated Mallick Rel.

[L'oric]

I got to answer these...its a sickness. Other than the replies to Aptorian's replies to these same issues let me add these further concerns and rebuttals posed by Obdigore. It is pretty clear that we are never going to agree btw but I love debating. Its channels the junior high nerd in me.
All quotes by Obdigore
Concerning Pormqual as a mistake being made in charge of Aren.

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When she has heard of nothing wrong, and everything seems to be going swimmingly for him, why not? As an aside, she didn't even realize the nobility had made extensive inroads into the army command structure until her Adjunct discovered it.

There are signs all over 7C Kalam and Fiddler and isn't there a priest that all notice it? She was head of the Claw she can't get a proper report out of 7C that says what a sergeant from Malaz City can see. Granted a very gifted Sergeant but still its not like he has been Trained since infancy on how to be a spy like a Claw would have.

And if you ask me the fact that the Adjunct is the first person to tell her that the nobility have infiltrated the army is once again proof positive that she has no idea how to command, appoint competent underlings, and then rule.

Concerning Korbolo Dom

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Why? He was apparently loyal, and then very well might have been present to the empress by claw loyal to Mallick Rel, and talked up about how they destroyed the threat without the Adjunct's army being in a battle, and spin the killing of coltaine to their purposes as well. Laseen wasn't there, she only knows what she is told.

He was taken in by Pearl who despised him and had him arrested and thrown in the dungeons. Only afterwards is he freed and the garbage shoot is opened up for horrible ideas like the Wickan Pogrom. IMO Laseen is either clueless in the above context or a bad judge of which direction to take the empire.

Concerning the killing off of Old Guard

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Name the ones she did or ordered. Not one. Thats right, not a single one you can prove she ordered, besides Cot/Shadowthrone, who I think she was working with.

Well there is Possums view of the killing of the final two High Mages left from the Emperors time in RotCG. There is the fact that she tells Kalam that Tay went too far in killing Bridgeburners and Tay later says they were supposed to stay safe underground but never says anything Akrony's <sp?>, Nightchill, and the cadre mages Hairlock, Tattersail, and one more I can not remember.

Then there is Dassem that she was actually present for and we see in NoK actually leaving the tent right before the final attempt on Dassem's life is made. I can not see how anyone can give Laseen a plausible deniability excuse on the killing off of the old guard.

On Greymane suing for peace and being labeled a Subversive

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And Angered the Koreli. She sacrificed one man for an entire subcontinent. You need to make these choices as the leader of an empire.

Lets see stuck with no hope of winning the High Fist of the entire campaign comes up with a peace treaty that will keep the empire from bleeding itself dry and what do you do? Well if his name is Dujek you plan on him tricking everyone into joining him and then going for the Pannion Domin, but if your Greymane you leave him to the wolves. She should have backed her High Fist and then seen what kind of advantage she could have gotten from a peace treaty. The least she could have gotten was a strengthening of her hold until another push could be made.

On starting too many wars and too many fronts

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She didn't begin it. She continued it since she was already invested.

You said it yourself the Emperor and Dancer were running around for years in the Azath. More than anyone Laseen ran the empire and more than anyone she is responsible for its sorry state. The old guard are the ones that secured the Moranth Treaty.

Laseen is complicit in almost every grave error the Malazan Empire makes during her reign. Like I told Apt "the buck stops here" She can be blamed for the bad choice, for picking the person that made the bar choice, or not killing the people who would make the bad choice.

Sincerely

[HoosierDaddy]

L'oric, on Mar 2 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

I got to answer these...its a sickness. Other than the replies to Aptorian's replies to these same issues let me add these further concerns and rebuttals posed by Obdigore. It is pretty clear that we are never going to agree btw but I love debating. Its channels the junior high nerd in me.
....
....
....

Well there is Possums view of the killing of the final two High Mages left from the Emperors time in RotCG. There is the fact that she tells Kalam that Tay went too far in killing Bridgeburners and Tay later says they were supposed to stay safe underground but never says anything Akrony's <sp?>, Nightchill, and the cadre mages Hairlock, Tattersail, and one more I can not remember.http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/index.php?showtopic=13813&st=80&start=80

....
....

This is the only one I'll bother with. Akryronis had been researching Nightchill's (Elder Goddess) past, and knew something was weird there. Nightchill found this out and took out A'karonys during the conflagration. Tay went after Nightchill after seeing what she did to A'karonys, and succeeded in killing her. The cadre mages were destroyed by Tay's deflected shielding of Rake's enfilade against him. So, Laseen had nothing to do with these. As for the 2 renegade High Mages... they didn't stay "drowned", but were insurrectionists and plotting against Laseen. That is treason and is punished by death.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 02 March 2009 - 09:21 PM

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 2 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

This is the only one I'll bother with. Akryronis had been researching Nightchill's (Elder Goddess) past, and knew something was weird there. Nightchill found this out and took out Akryonis during the conflagration. Tay went after Nightchill after seeing what she did to Akryonis, and succeeded in killing her. The cadre mages were destroyed by Tay's deflected shielding of Rake's enfilade against him. So, Laseen had nothing to do with these. As for the 2 renegade High Mages... they didn't stay "drowned", but were insurrectionists and plotting against Laseen. That is treason and is punished by death.

First I am wounded that you only bothered with one of em...woe is me.

This certainly sounds plausible and likely scenario to the events outside of Pale, but not what Laseen intimates to Kalam during their meeting at all. It was clear she had told Tay to do something and that he had gone too far in carrying it out.

I thought Tay survived just one attack by Rake, and he was the one that killed both Nightchill and Akryonis.

As to the two High mages that were insurrectionists. I am still of the opinion that if she had included them in the ruling of the empire then they wouldnt have been insurrectionists. They seem even in death to want whats best and accepting of the inevitable.

Hell Everyone is plotting against Laseen. Sure seemed expedient to forgive to the Moranth and Urko didnt it? Make sure one of the High Mages is a hostage and have the other one helping you out.

[HoosierDaddy]

L'oric, on Mar 2 2009, 04:33 PM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 2 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

This is the only one I'll bother with. Akryronis had been researching Nightchill's (Elder Goddess) past, and knew something was weird there. Nightchill found this out and took out Akryonis during the conflagration. Tay went after Nightchill after seeing what she did to Akryonis, and succeeded in killing her. The cadre mages were destroyed by Tay's deflected shielding of Rake's enfilade against him. So, Laseen had nothing to do with these. As for the 2 renegade High Mages... they didn't stay "drowned", but were insurrectionists and plotting against Laseen. That is treason and is punished by death.

First I am wounded that you only bothered with one of em...woe is me.

This certainly sounds plausible and likely scenario to the events outside of Pale, but not what Laseen intimates to Kalam during their meeting at all. It was clear she had told Tay to do something and that he had gone too far in carrying it out.

I thought Tay survived just one attack by Rake, and he was the one that killed both Nightchill and Akryonis.

As to the two High mages that were insurrectionists. I am still of the opinion that if she had included them in the ruling of the empire then they wouldnt have been insurrectionists. They seem even in death to want whats best and accepting of the inevitable.

Hell Everyone is plotting against Laseen. Sure seemed expedient to forgive to the Moranth and Urko didnt it? Make sure one of the High Mages is a hostage and have the other one helping you out.

Don't take it as an insult, just think of me saying those are all really good points, but this one I don't necessarily think is as good.

As for Pale Enfilade: I guess it depends on who you believe. Tay in MOI or Laseen in DG. I tend to believe Tay as he is (outside of GotM) less duplicitous. I am nearly positive Nightchill killed A'Karonys, because that's why Tay attacks Nightchill.

As for including them in "governing." Laseen isn't a benign sovereign. She is dictator Empress. Her understandable inability to trust those around her has resulted in her insulation and isolation which is, yes, a major problem in her governance, I'll agree.

[Aptorian]

Indeed. Why would Tay, a fire user, cast ice on Ako? Nightchill on the other hand, the sister of cold nights, sounds like a much more likely culprite.

[Obdigore]

L'oric, on Mar 2 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

I got to answer these...its a sickness. Other than the replies to Aptorian's replies to these same issues let me add these further concerns and rebuttals posed by Obdigore. It is pretty clear that we are never going to agree btw but I love debating. Its channels the junior high nerd in me.
All quotes by Obdigore
Concerning Pormqual as a mistake being made in charge of Aren.

Quote

When she has heard of nothing wrong, and everything seems to be going swimmingly for him, why not? As an aside, she didn't even realize the nobility had made extensive inroads into the army command structure until her Adjunct discovered it.

There are signs all over 7C Kalam and Fiddler and isn't there a priest that all notice it? She was head of the Claw she can't get a proper report out of 7C that says what a sergeant from Malaz City can see. Granted a very gifted Sergeant but still its not like he has been Trained since infancy on how to be a spy like a Claw would have.

And if you ask me the fact that the Adjunct is the first person to tell her that the nobility have infiltrated the army is once again proof positive that she has no idea how to command, appoint competent underlings, and then rule.

Kalam and Fiddler say they could have stomped it out if they needed too, but they didn't. Was the plan all along to allow the uprising and then stop out the whirlwind goddess and all those willing to support her in one fel swoop? We don't know what Pormqual was told to do, except that he underestimated Mallick Rel as well. Remember that Mallick has infiltrated the claw. Laseen cannot trust the claw at this point, and if noone with concerns ever got to her, she can't do anything about it. She isn't all-knowing, like some of you seem to want to believe.

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Concerning Korbolo Dom

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Why? He was apparently loyal, and then very well might have been present to the empress by claw loyal to Mallick Rel, and talked up about how they destroyed the threat without the Adjunct's army being in a battle, and spin the killing of coltaine to their purposes as well. Laseen wasn't there, she only knows what she is told.

He was taken in by Pearl who despised him and had him arrested and thrown in the dungeons. Only afterwards is he freed and the garbage shoot is opened up for horrible ideas like the Wickan Pogrom. IMO Laseen is either clueless in the above context or a bad judge of which direction to take the empire.

Pearl brings him to Malaz City and dumps him in the brig. Does he say anything to Laseen? Does any claw say a thing to laseen except bring the two of them before her, to weave a story of triumph and duplicity? Remember that Laseen cannot trust anything the claw says.

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Concerning the killing off of Old Guard

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Name the ones she did or ordered. Not one. Thats right, not a single one you can prove she ordered, besides Cot/Shadowthrone, who I think she was working with.

Well there is Possums view of the killing of the final two High Mages left from the Emperors time in RotCG. There is the fact that she tells Kalam that Tay went too far in killing Bridgeburners and Tay later says they were supposed to stay safe underground but never says anything Akrony's <sp?>, Nightchill, and the cadre mages Hairlock, Tattersail, and one more I can not remember.

Then there is Dassem that she was actually present for and we see in NoK actually leaving the tent right before the final attempt on Dassem's life is made. I can not see how anyone can give Laseen a plausible deniability excuse on the killing off of the old guard.

Tay was refering to the bridgeburners staying safe underground, there was nothing in there questioning why the mages die. Why would Tay bring it up if he wasn't asked about it? That isn't how people's minds work, even if he did kill them. And It wasn't Tay who said that, either, it was Dujek who told WJ what Tay apparently told him. Right?

Maybe she came to tell Dassem that since he is ascending, he needs to leave the empire, and there will be a fake assassination attempt upon you, are you ready for your flight? As noted, Ascendants cannot have higher-up positions in mortal empires, or other ascendants come to crush them. Do you know what they spoke of? What happened in that tent? No, you assume whatever is easiest for your argument.

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On Greymane suing for peace and being labeled a Subversive

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And Angered the Koreli. She sacrificed one man for an entire subcontinent. You need to make these choices as the leader of an empire.

Lets see stuck with no hope of winning the High Fist of the entire campaign comes up with a peace treaty that will keep the empire from bleeding itself dry and what do you do? Well if his name is Dujek you plan on him tricking everyone into joining him and then going for the Pannion Domin, but if your Greymane you leave him to the wolves. She should have backed her High Fist and then seen what kind of advantage she could have gotten from a peace treaty. The least she could have gotten was a strengthening of her hold until another push could be made.

dujek was ordered to go renegade. Greymane wanted peace with the Waveriders, which caused an entire subcontinent to rise in anger, and to possibly rebel. She wasn't ready, greymane got screwed. That is what happens when you are the leader of an empire, as I said before.

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On starting too many wars and too many fronts

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She didn't begin it. She continued it since she was already invested.

You said it yourself the Emperor and Dancer were running around for years in the Azath. More than anyone Laseen ran the empire and more than anyone she is responsible for its sorry state. The old guard are the ones that secured the Moranth Treaty.

You do realize that the Moranth Treaty was secured after the war began, right? If the Emperor declared the war and sent the armies, Laseen has to at least appear to do what he says or she would have been killed.

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Laseen is complicit in almost every grave error the Malazan Empire makes during her reign. Like I told Apt "the buck stops here" She can be blamed for the bad choice, for picking the person that made the bar choice, or not killing the people who would make the bad choice.

Sincerely

And she can be lauded for doing the best she can for the empire, and being betrayed by numerous people around her, either by drowning or by them doing powergrabs for themselves.

You see her as a villan because you want to. You make assumptions about situations that support what you want to believe.

[L'oric]

Obdigore, on Mar 2 2009, 04:07 PM, said:

And she can be lauded for doing the best she can for the empire, and being betrayed by numerous people around her, either by drowning or by them doing powergrabs for themselves.

You see her as a villan because you want to. You make assumptions about situations that support what you want to believe.

I see many things and the only assumption I am making is as follows.

x+2=4 therefore x=2.

No we do not see every and all scenes that indicate who she is trying to kill or how inept she is but in my opinion we get more than enough. Just like I solved for x above I solved for Laseen being a party to or fulcrum to a hosts of bad choices.

If you see my points as sophistry and without basis then thats how you see them. I guess I can go over them one more time later and see how those go. Maybe if I made my points with exact quotes from every book section I would have a shot.

I am sure that I have stated on numerous occasions that I did indeed like Laseen as a character. I never say she is a villian just bad at being an Empress. I have called her horrid/stupid/moronic but all in the context of her choices as Empress none of those qualify/quantify her as a villian.

Sincerely