[foolio]

Quote

i know the obvious lets you know she is dead.... but when has SE been obvious, and ICE been his ''protege'' he may not be obvious in his writng also. i know its very far fetched but maybe she just had enough and wanted out, so maybe...

what made me think of this was after finishing RoTCG, there was a lot of deception from Laseens point. her new high mage wrapped in mockra and meanus to appear as someone else completely, so maybe at the end someone done the same to look like laseen knowing there was more danger. also Possem stated just after Topper appeared to chase cowl off, it was the first time he'd seen her (laseen) out of breath from the fight. i just find that hard to believe. she was the mistress of the claw. now, as i said it's way out there but i like to think it true. i liked Laseen. she was ambitious. she done what needed to be done. being ambitious means needing to be ruthless at times also.

I dont disagree with any of this Soldier. I will say though that if she is brought back or ascends, I am done with the series and will give away all of my books. Sign up now for free books people.

This post has been edited by foolio: 23 February 2009 - 03:16 PM

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 22 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

1. Who's going to farm that land in Raraku? There is NO ONE THERE. Also, desert's don't turn into cultivatable fields overnight, you need top-soil to make anything happen.
2. The unrest in Quon is not her fault. It's a result of food shortage that can be blamed on the rebellion she crushed, and Poliel's plague which she could have done nothing about.
3. Your point about the "land-grab." That is the empire's land to what it will with, and staving off starvation for an entire continent is in the end more important than protecting grasslands for a nomadic culture. It's a tough decision she had to make, and considering Rel and Dom's turning of the Wickan's into traitors, it was a fairly smart move at that.

1.I am not much of a farmer but if you are then you would know what you are talking about. It seems to me however that where you have land...empty land...fresh water...a sea not a lake or anything...irrigation would make anything tillable plantable except solid rock. They had farms there before, not in Raraku but elsewhere in 7C, so they have to have tillable land. Granted its not the best option but its better than starting a war against your own people that ends up biting you in the ass.

2.What do you mean its not her fault? Toc the Elder could have been and should have been included in the running of the empire. Same with Urko, Crust, and Nok. I did not see any food shortages in Unta, or anywhere else for that matter. The possibility of a food shortage does not equate to lets kill the wickans for their cattle and lands. IMO. Poliel's plague as of Bonehunters is over with. With rumors of a city of the fallen all over 7C merchants already passing through by the time RotCG comes around there shoudl have been hints and more than hints from there. She would have been able to send someone their if she hadn't put Topper in the Imperial Warren to kill Claws that had turned on her because she allowed 2 prisoners to go free instead of killing them and keeping her once allies from the gallows.

3.Fairly smart move? You got me there. I am awestruck by how far away in thinking we both are and I wish I could convince you otherwise, but I can't. My points have been presented let history judge my viewpoint as it will. Laseen, Bush and I will all have to say this together before we fall asleep tonight.

Sincerely

[Raraku]

"Toc the Elder could have been and should have been included in the running of the empire. Same with Urko, Crust, and Nok."

You have to remember that Urko, Ameron, Toc, etc. just drowned or disappeared. They left the Empire to Lasseen because the Napans didnt want to look like they had helped Lasseen kill the emperor and Dancer. Don't know Tocs reason for disappearing but i think in essence it was the same. Or form RotCG most of the Old Guard says that they thought Lasseen as competent and so left her in charge but they came back when it looked like she was totally ruined.

[foolio]

of course we also know that she was methodically hunting down and killing the old guard. We know this from DU and other fringe characters such as Baudin the elder..."Drowning" might have been as much a matter of self preservation as it was a matter of disliking Surly/finding her 'unfit."

Quote

Blackzoid---Surly had Dom and Mallick Rom, known traitors, in her hands at the end of HoC.
By TBH, she wants Kalam and Tavore to take them out as they have too much power. (especially Rom)
She is killed by Rom at the end of RotCG.

She is incompetant as a ruler.

Its very hard to argue with that.

This post has been edited by foolio: 23 February 2009 - 08:17 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

foolio, on Feb 23 2009, 01:47 PM, said:

of course we also know that she was methodically hunting down and killing the old guard. We know this from DU and other fringe characters such as Baudin the elder..."Drowning" might have been as much a matter of self preservation as it was a matter of disliking Surly/finding her 'unfit."

Quote

Blackzoid---Surly had Dom and Mallick Rom, known traitors, in her hands at the end of HoC.
By TBH, she wants Kalam and Tavore to take them out as they have too much power. (especially Rom)
She is killed by Rom at the end of RotCG.

She is incompetant as a ruler.

Its very hard to argue with that.

except the part where he doesn't get the last name of mallick rel right but we'll chalk it up to a typo

[HoosierDaddy]

Well, Korbolo Dom, Mallick Rel = ROM, Master of Malaz.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Greetings Malazite. I am ROM, resistance is futile. Submit and you shall be spared./robot voice

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 24 February 2009 - 01:44 AM

[blackzoid]

Whatever. Whether it was Rel or Rom, the fact that she didn't kill him at the end of HOC and is later killed by him at the end of RoTCG, speaks volumes about her abilities as a leader.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 24 February 2009 - 11:13 AM

[L'oric]

blackzoid, on Feb 24 2009, 04:12 AM, said:

Whatever. Whether it was Rel or Rom, the fact that she didn't kill him at the end of HOC and is later killed by him at the end of RoTCG, speaks volumes about her abilities as a leader.

I always get Malleck Rel, Mallick Rel, Mallic Rel whatever the Jhistal priest of Mael's name wrong. Korbolo Dumb is so much easier for me.

[Epiph]

L'oric, on Feb 23 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

1.I am not much of a farmer but if you are then you would know what you are talking about. It seems to me however that where you have land...empty land...fresh water...a sea not a lake or anything...irrigation would make anything tillable plantable except solid rock. They had farms there before, not in Raraku but elsewhere in 7C, so they have to have tillable land. Granted its not the best option but its better than starting a war against your own people that ends up biting you in the ass.

It's not that easy. Raraku may have water, but whatever soil it has is depleted of nutrients. If you hauled in a lot of compost and organic matter over the course of several years to amend the soil and make it suitable for growing things, then sure. The ability of a plow to make furrows in the ground is not the limiting factor here.

'L'oric' said:

2.What do you mean its not her fault? Toc the Elder could have been and should have been included in the running of the empire. Same with Urko, Crust, and Nok. I did not see any food shortages in Unta, or anywhere else for that matter. The possibility of a food shortage does not equate to lets kill the wickans for their cattle and lands. IMO. Poliel's plague as of Bonehunters is over with. With rumors of a city of the fallen all over 7C merchants already passing through by the time RotCG comes around there shoudl have been hints and more than hints from there. She would have been able to send someone their if she hadn't put Topper in the Imperial Warren to kill Claws that had turned on her because she allowed 2 prisoners to go free instead of killing them and keeping her once allies from the gallows.

I would say the lack of food shortages means that Laseen's plan worked, not that she did the wrong thing. At any rate, the pillaging of tribal lands for the benefit of civilization is a classic historical theme that SE and ICE use to good effect.

You have a point, though, and in BH, I was wondering why Laseen wasn't shipping the people who wanted Wickan land to Seven Cities.

[foolio]

Quote

I would say the lack of food shortages means that Laseen's plan worked, not that she did the wrong thing.

so how long do we suppose between the end of Bonehunter and beginning of ROTCG? I thought this was proof that there was no need to destroy the Wickans or just Sloppy writing by ICE. I dont think enough time has passed for the settlers to have already planted and harvested crops, not to mention in ROTCG the settlers have not pushed that far into Wickan Territory. They have not come close to subduing the Wickan Nation. Or at least that is how I read it.

This post has been edited by foolio: 26 February 2009 - 10:00 PM

[Epiph]

LALALALA I can't hear you! The timeline is not important! LALALALALA

[Cowl's Disciple]

Epiph, on Feb 27 2009, 08:08 AM, said:

LALALALA I can't hear you! The timeline is not important! LALALALALA

lol we know!

However, regardless of timeline we hear the pogrom is well underway in books prior to RotCG. I can't recall who says it but perhaps the idea of the Wickan Pogrom being as huge as it seemed prior to RotCG could be explained as a result of rumour and details getting mushed as the news travelled from mouth to mouth?

[L'oric]

foolio, on Feb 26 2009, 04:00 PM, said:

Quote

I would say the lack of food shortages means that Laseen's plan worked, not that she did the wrong thing.

so how long do we suppose between the end of Bonehunter and beginning of ROTCG? I thought this was proof that there was no need to destroy the Wickans or just Sloppy writing by ICE. I dont think enough time has passed for the settlers to have already planted and harvested crops, not to mention in ROTCG the settlers have not pushed that far into Wickan Territory. They have not come close to subduing the Wickan Nation. Or at least that is how I read it.

It seems to me it would take the same time to cultivate Wickans lands than it would to go to Seven Cities.

[HoosierDaddy]

Why do you think that? Pastoral land is generally much easier to cultivate than a once-desert. Consider the difference between say Libya and the American great plains. Be hard to raise some crops in Libya, even if you dumped the Nile River there over night.

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 26 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

Why do you think that? Pastoral land is generally much easier to cultivate than a once-desert. Consider the difference between say Libya and the American great plains. Be hard to raise some crops in Libya, even if you dumped the Nile River there over night.

Well they were growing stuff there before the plague and the uprising...only Raruku was dune like desert...errr right? Raraku the desert is now a fresh water Ocean/Lake...doesnt fresh water make it a lake no matter what? Hmmm.

During the Dust bowl of the 30's it did not take generations to start growing crops there. Technology probably had a lot to do with it but magic has to count for something.

I should have gone to an agricultural college...at least taken a survey course or something...who knew it would have come in so handy? Do you think SE and ICE actually think of these things? I think they just go for what makes a good story. Which is why I think they wanted Laseen to be a terrible empress.

[HoosierDaddy]

SE would know of the role of agriculture in culture and society through anthropology I would imagine.

[lobo the wolfman]

You have to also take into account with the whole Wickan pogrom, that it gave the people of the empire a target, a group of people to blame for everything that went wrong in 7c. It's not just a land grab, it's a focus for the mobs rage.

[foolio]

Quote

You have to also take into account with the whole Wickan pogrom, that it gave the people of the empire a target, a group of people to blame for everything that went wrong in 7c. It's not just a land grab, it's a focus for the mobs rage.

I understand where you are coming from but the whole thing seems so misguided. Coltaine was only shipped to the 7 C because there was a revolt about to break loose. So how can anyone logically believe that he was the leader of the insurrection? How can you blame people who are not even in the 7Cs? Most of the Wickan population is on Quan Tali, the wickans in 7 Cs were only there to help stem an insurrectioon that was already about to explode because of Laseen the misguided promoting idiots like Pormaqual. This whole mess is her fault. Before you counter with all the qualified old guard were "drowning" I will say she was hunting them down and killing them, so its her fault as well that she is alone. It seems to me it is ALL HER FAULT.

[TeddyGraham]

There was an interesting quote on laseen in Rotg, I cant remember the whole thing and i dont have the book with me, but it was about her not being liked and being indiffent to it.....