[HoosierDaddy]

We know something is different with Grub, as he has an exampled prescience (TBH, wait 3 days, jumping over the ship, bringing the bone in HOC). It is almost certain that he has some Talent, making Warren or Hold travel a possibility. As well as a MotD provided Card transportation possibility as well.

[Zorland]

Didn't we learn that Paran was going to come covered by ICE in some interview? Am I crazy?

Cause then we have a Paran vs. Mallick Rell civil war.

!!

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I found something...

"Events follow closely on Return and center on a new Malazan offensive in that theater launched by the new Emperor, Mallick Rel."

So I guess he ain't playing his cards close to his chest.

This post has been edited by Ain't_It_Just_: 24 January 2009 - 11:05 AM

[L'oric]

I have been rereading Bonehunters and I just have to say that Laseen is the dumbest Empress I could have imagined. The posts that say she got what she deserved at the end of RotCG are right on the money.

Why? Why succomb to mob rule when throughout the entire storyline she has been against it. She took over an empire that was governing itself without the emperor in attendance even. The armies were still undefeated and unlikely to EVER be defeated. Malaz had one continent under its control, most of another and was well on its way to having a third. With Dassem the Genebackis campaign would not have stalled anywhere. The Malaz empire brings stabilty and justice and a host of benefits to whosoever joins them and if you just capitualte they will let you rule without them if you are not central...ie Sepik.

Laseen was and had to be incompetent to view it any other way. Throughout this book I felt for her but that does not excuse the fact that she was the George Bush of Empire. Do you think for a second that Tayschrenn would have stayed his hand had she said that she needed Mellick Rel taken out in order to keep the throne?

Ok this vent is over for now.

Laseen and history have one hope. She did it all on purpose in order to ascend or give up the empire to someone who could rule with a firmer/wiser/stronger hand...if only to secure his own power.

Sincerely

[Aptorian]

This is nonsense. What Laseen did is a simple, effecient tool, and it works. Give the masses something to hate, something to throw their anger and hopes at, and you are free to concentrate on other matters. It's what Hitler did with the jews. It's why the romans empire was always trying to further the borders and why they held so many games... and some would argue that is why America decided it was fair to blow the crap out of Afghanistan and invade America. It's simple missdirection.

She needed to get the people focused on something else than the loss of an entire continent and a large chunk of the empires armed forces along with the comming food shortage. Blaming the Wickans was a great solution. Better them than her and along with her the rest of the empire.

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on Feb 22 2009, 11:11 AM, said:

This is nonsense. What Laseen did is a simple, effecient tool, and it works. Give the masses something to hate, something to throw their anger and hopes at, and you are free to concentrate on other matters. It's what Hitler did with the jews. It's why the romans empire was always trying to further the borders and why they held so many games... and some would argue that is why America decided it was fair to blow the crap out of Afghanistan and invade America. It's simple missdirection.

She needed to get the people focused on something else than the loss of an entire continent and a large chunk of the empires armed forces along with the comming food shortage. Blaming the Wickans was a great solution. Better them than her and along with her the rest of the empire.

I will have to agree its nonsense. Not in any way the way you meant it though. Classic misdirection worked so well for Hitler/Bush. If Wickans were Jews and represented everything that was wrong with society, which they did not in the anti wickan campaign Laseen could be manipulating the commoners, so even in that Laseen could not bring any consensus.

What other matters did she concentrate on? Rome did indeed mollify the populace with war and food and games, but throughout the books all we see and hear of is that merchant booming business that is the Malazan empire. Where there is hunger there is profit for those who can feed Quon Tali. We get nothing from RotCG that suggests a depression of commerce.

So if Laseen was made and written to come off as unable to rule they did an incredible job. I think Rel will be an improvement as of right now, and I dislike him about as much as characters like Bidithal.

[lobo the wolfman]

Wasn't it also said that the reason that Laseen allowed the people to turn agaist the Wickans, was that due to the loss of 7 cites, the economy and the harvests have both taken a blow, and they need to use the Wickan lands for it's resources. It's spoken about at the end of the BH, when Laseen and Tavore meet again.

So the Empress uses two high ranking 'survivors' of the 7 cites rebellion to rasie up the mob agaist the wickans, so she dosen't have to use the army to kill them all, and then hopes that Tavore, Kalam or Pearl would kill Mallick and Dom for her, leaving her hands clean in all this.

She seems full of clever plans and backup plans for every thing, but really seem to have a clear gasb of what needs to be done to keep the empire whole. I think her ten years of rule has just been one failire after another. She sloud have let Whiskyjack take the throne after killing the Emperor, Dancer and Dessem, as many people wanted.

[HoosierDaddy]

Aptorian, on Feb 22 2009, 12:11 PM, said:

This is nonsense. What Laseen did is a simple, effecient tool, and it works. Give the masses something to hate, something to throw their anger and hopes at, and you are free to concentrate on other matters. It's what Hitler did with the jews. It's why the romans empire was always trying to further the borders and why they held so many games... and some would argue that is why America decided it was fair to blow the crap out of Afghanistan and invade America. It's simple missdirection.

She needed to get the people focused on something else than the loss of an entire continent and a large chunk of the empires armed forces along with the comming food shortage. Blaming the Wickans was a great solution. Better them than her and along with her the rest of the empire.

Good god, we are even invading ourselves now? Where's a statue of GWB I can topple?

On topic, Apt's point is precise. Laseen had a rebellion in 7 Cities, food shortage that would have caused riots throughout Quon Tali, and a clever adversary that had jeopardized and turned her secret-police, who had turned Wickans into bad-guys by word-of-mouth rumor, and no stable force to bring in outside of the 14th who had taken part in destroying the Apocalypse and knew the truth. Forced with jeopardizing her entire rule, Laseen traded people for time, and in the end her plan worked right up until the point her adversary brought in an outside agent she didn't know about to assassinate her.

[Aptorian]

It seems you and I read two different books called Return of the Crimson Guard.

Lasseen was a great empress who did what she had to do for the empires greater good. It's not a popularity contest.

People seem to forget the legendary cruelty that Kellanved also displayed. For example spiking the Wickan leaders on Unta's wall.

[HoosierDaddy]

L'oric, on Feb 22 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

What other matters did she concentrate on? Rome did indeed mollify the populace with war and food and games, but throughout the books all we see and hear of is that merchant booming business that is the Malazan empire. Where there is hunger there is profit for those who can feed Quon Tali. We get nothing from RotCG that suggests a depression of commerce.

So if Laseen was made and written to come off as unable to rule they did an incredible job. I think Rel will be an improvement as of right now, and I dislike him about as much as characters like Bidithal.

Errr, the entire bread-basket of the Malazan Empire is GONE! 7 Cities has been hit with a massive rebellion, followed by an even worse plague that killed a huge amount of the population. So, fields of harvest will go unsewn and unreaped, equalling starvation in Quon-Tali for lots of the population. The Wickan plains were the next best bet for the population as a WHOLE, so Laseen tells the population they can go there and take the land over so that they won't starve. Any commerce coming out of Genebackis has been uprooted by the Pannion War, and that help is a long way away. There's the commercial problems.

Next, we have growing instability within Quon Tali itself, as evidence by this book. Korel is a mess. Dujek's army is MIA. There is NO ONE to relieve the problems, other than Kalam and Tavore who REFUSE to do so.

So, faced with impending starvation and usurpation Laseen throws the Wickans to the wolves, hoping that Tavore and Kalam will solve the problem of the usurpers, while the Wickans can do a pretty good job of taking care of themselves.

[lobo the wolfman]

Aptorian, on Feb 23 2009, 08:44 AM, said:

It seems you and I read two different books called Return of the Crimson Guard.

Lasseen was a great empress who did what she had to do for the empires greater good. It's not a popularity contest.

People seem to forget the legendary cruelty that Kellanved also displayed. For example spiking the Wickan leaders on Unta's wall.

Wasn't it Laseen that spiked the Wickan Warlocks on the walls of Unta, not kellanved?

[HoosierDaddy]

Old Guard insurrectionists. Treason normally doesn't justify a slap on the wrist.

[Aptorian]

Oh... wait...

Curses. How old were Nil and Nether in DG? How recent were those Wickan wars?

[lobo the wolfman]

Nil and Nether where about 10 i think and Sormo was about 12. The Wickan wars happed when Kellenved was still around becasue he was the one that talked Coltaine to stop fighting and join up.

[Aptorian]

Okay. My argument still holds water then. I'm a genious...

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on Feb 22 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

It seems you and I read two different books called Return of the Crimson Guard.
Lasseen was a great empress who did what she had to do for the empires greater good. It's not a popularity contest.
People seem to forget the legendary cruelty that Kellanved also displayed. For example spiking the Wickan leaders on Unta's wall.

I am pretty sure it was the same book we read Apt, but I just got a different truth from it than you. Laseen might have Thought she was doing something for the greater good but all in all she was a princess who failed again and again.
The difference is of course that when Kellanved displayed cruelty he ended up ahead while Laseen ended up...well....a head-stone.

Quote

Errr, the entire bread-basket of the Malazan Empire is GONE! 7 Cities has been hit with a massive rebellion, followed by an even worse plague that killed a huge amount of the population. So, fields of harvest will go unsewn and unreaped, equalling starvation in Quon-Tali for lots of the population. The Wickan plains were the next best bet for the population as a WHOLE, so Laseen tells the population they can go there and take the land over so that they won't starve. Any commerce coming out of Genebackis has been uprooted by the Pannion War, and that help is a long way away. There's the commercial problems.

Next, we have growing instability within Quon Tali itself, as evidence by this book. Korel is a mess. Dujek's army is MIA. There is NO ONE to relieve the problems, other than Kalam and Tavore who REFUSE to do so.

So, faced with impending starvation and usurpation Laseen throws the Wickans to the wolves, hoping that Tavore and Kalam will solve the problem of the usurpers, while the Wickans can do a pretty good job of taking care of themselves.-Hosierdaddy

The unrest in Quon Tali is of her own making. All the old guard wouldnt be rebelling if she was any good at being empress and or included them in the running of the Empire. To stave of the possibility of starvation she starts a land grab that eventually has the entire continent raising arms against her. Genius. How about I could walk around blind and point to five of twenty reasons on a chalk board written by bhokalara that would have been better. Including eating our own shit.

There is a whole subcontinent in seven cities with a fresh new sea waiting for agriculture. Then of course the 20 year leases the Wickans come up with themselves for getting the Empire to legitimise the acquisition of said lands. Gee maybe they would have done that in the first place seeing as they are LOYAL to the Empire and the Empire needs their help...errr maybe not...easier to just try to kill them with a bunch of rabble.

Laseen is at best only suited to run the claws she is/was a failure at everything else.

[HoosierDaddy]

1. Who's going to farm that land in Raraku? There is NO ONE THERE. Also, desert's don't turn into cultivatable fields overnight, you need top-soil to make anything happen.
2. The unrest in Quon is not her fault. It's a result of food shortage that can be blamed on the rebellion she crushed, and Poliel's plague which she could have done nothing about.
3. Your point about the "land-grab." That is the empire's land to what it will with, and staving off starvation for an entire continent is in the end more important than protecting grasslands for a nomadic culture. It's a tough decision she had to make, and considering Rel and Dom's turning of the Wickan's into traitors, it was a fairly smart move at that.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 22 February 2009 - 10:55 PM

[foolio]

I found it very strange, or just inconsistent, when in Bonehunters we are told the empire desperately needs the Wickans lands for food, yet in ROTCG we see no evidence of starvation or even food shortages. The Empire still has enough food to feed its citizens and mobilize a rather large army and feed it. When I finished the Bonehunters the first time, I remember thinking Laseen is done. She will be facing riots, her claw is decimated, really not even a functioning organization anymore, they will not be able to field an army because of unrest in every city not enough food to even feed her military , not to mention she has two snakes in the bed with her.

I Typically agree with Loric in the above arguement. However if you throw out morality as any relevant factor in deciding, I can see a case for Laseen. I think the best comparison is one between her and Stalin. Where the malazan Empire used to bring peace, a degree of fairness under laws, end to slavery, and financial prosperity, Laseen now brings you, horror, purges, hatred for anyone different from you,(Braven tooth comments on this), uncertainty, possibly starvation, a dangerous current of pre WWII level nationalism, and manufactured heroes. Personally I think you are better off without the Surly version of the Malazan Empire.


PS I am not sure I understand the America invading America line...

This post has been edited by foolio: 23 February 2009 - 02:36 PM

[blackzoid]

Surly had Dom and Mallick Rom, known traitors, in her hands at the end of HoC.
By TBH, she wants Kalam and Tavore to take them out as they have too much power. (especially Rom)
She is killed by Rom at the end of RotCG.

She is incompetant as a ruler.

[Soldier]

i know the obvious lets you know she is dead.... but when has SE been obvious, and ICE been his ''protege'' he may not be obvious in his writng also. i know its very far fetched but maybe she just had enough and wanted out, so maybe...

what made me think of this was after finishing RoTCG, there was a lot of deception from Laseens point. her new high mage wrapped in mockra and meanus to appear as someone else completely, so maybe at the end someone done the same to look like laseen knowing there was more danger. also Possem stated just after Topper appeared to chase cowl off, it was the first time he'd seen her (laseen) out of breath from the fight. i just find that hard to believe. she was the mistress of the claw. now, as i said it's way out there but i like to think it true. i liked Laseen. she was ambitious. she done what needed to be done. being ambitious means needing to be ruthless at times also.