[Blazing Phoenix]

I guess this has to do with the timeline of Return of the Crimson Guard.

Ryllandaras is freed from Li Heng in RotCG.
However, Mappo sees him in DG.
But RotCG cannot be a head of DG because of the Wickans placing it after the Chain of Dogs.

The only way I can explain this is that Ryllandaras being a D'ivers had one of his portions captured in Li Heng.

So, when does RotCG take place?

Because in DG Osseric is made aware of his placement in Raracku's memory by Loric and he eventually leaves. So why is he in the Horn at the beginning of RotCG?

:zanth:

[Lisheo]

Im afraid the authors dont actually reply to these, sorry

Ryllandras, years ago, had one of his d'ivers parts trapped in Li Heng. Or something, and anyway, it became a seperate soletaken being.

And the Osric in the Raraku memory was a dream, I think.

Im not the most knowledgable, though, I'm afraid! But Apt will probably stroll over and answer all questions.

[Silencer]

Karsa also encountered Ryllandaras (D'ivers) in HoC.

Ryllandaras is said, by some party somewhere, to have been the only one to master the arts of both Soletaken and D'ivers. Now, whether this means he can do both at the same time (RotCG implies this), or whether he can one and then the other (which is logical, because otherwise the soletaken part is merely another aspect of the D'ivers, except bigger and more independant.

Either way, the parts of Ryllandaras seen in DG/HoC and RotCG are related, and explainable to a certain extent. It's not a total screw-up, although it's not the cleanest explanation either.

Hope this helped!

[Dancer+]

I decided to move this to the Return of the Crimson Guard forum because as you've said:

Quote

I guess this has to do with the timeline of Return of the Crimson Guard.

If there are any complaints, not that there should be, just let me know

As for the question Silencer has made a fair explanation.

[Leoman of the Flails]

Heres a quote from the book, I have the bantam trade paperback and I think its on like page 656 (i know its from somewhere in the last 50 pages) when Nait is speaking with someone but I cant remember who. I dont have the book with me but I made a note of the quote in my BlackBerry:

"I was inspired by Ryllandaras believe it or not. He is a soletaken, yes, a man-beast. But few remember now that he is also D'ivers. One who is many. Who is to know how many there are of him. Perhaps this one is the last."

I think thats a pretty clear indication that there is (or was at some point) a bunch of Ryllandaras running around, all of them cut from the same cloth, and when 1 or more of his D'ivers forms splits from the pack, they can sustain themselves. I wonder if his jackal forms can go rogue like this and still do the whole 'spicey smell voila im a dude again' trick?


edit: could this also mean that all d'ivers in their beast forms can have individuals break apart from the pack and survive? I want to know more about d'ivers from SE. Maybe he'll touch of some of this stuff at some point (not in the main series, but if he writes further novels)

This post has been edited by Leoman of the Flails: 19 December 2008 - 01:27 PM

[Hinter]

 Leoman of the Flails, on Dec 19 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

Heres a quote from the book, I have the bantam trade paperback and I think its on like page 656 (i know its from somewhere in the last 50 pages) when Nait is speaking with someone but I cant remember who. I dont have the book with me but I made a note of the quote in my BlackBerry:

"I was inspired by Ryllandaras believe it or not. He is a soletaken, yes, a man-beast. But few remember now that he is also D'ivers. One who is many. Who is to know how many there are of him. Perhaps this one is the last."

I think thats a pretty clear indication that there is (or was at some point) a bunch of Ryllandaras running around, all of them cut from the same cloth, and when 1 or more of his D'ivers forms splits from the pack, they can sustain themselves. I wonder if his jackal forms can go rogue like this and still do the whole 'spicey smell voila im a dude again' trick?

I remember this, but I think it was Ho that the quote actually came from when he said he was a human d'ivers.

[williamjm]

 Leoman of the Flails, on Dec 19 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

I think thats a pretty clear indication that there is (or was at some point) a bunch of Ryllandaras running around, all of them cut from the same cloth, and when 1 or more of his D'ivers forms splits from the pack, they can sustain themselves.

Given that one part of the Ho D'ivers is imprisoned mining Otaratal while his other parts are on a different continent it seems quite clear that the D'ivers can split up without any ill effects.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I found it odd, however, that while 7C Ryllandaras was in the guise of wolves, his Soletaken portion trapped in Li Heng was a jackal. Could this be some sort of adaptation/evolution?

[The Drum]

I personally thought that the Ryllandaras' were two different entities completely. one's a god and the others a divers, they're different species as well as stated above

[MTS]

It is mentioned many times in RotCG that the one on the Seti plain is the "brother" of Trake/Treach. It's mentioned in DG as well, I believe. Ho got trapped on Otataral Island while his other forms were off having strokes. Why not Ryllandaras? And the Seti only worship Ryllandaras as their totem, not their god, and even then only the White Jackal Society or whatever their name is. Can't figure the wolf/jackal discrepancy though.

[amphibian]

I believe the Soletaken Ryllandaras trapped in Li Heng was completely insane; the D'ivers parts of Ryllandaras knew that and purposely never tried to break it free. Ryllandaras may have sectioned all the insanity off into one form and then just left it behind.

The jackals/wolf thing can perhaps be ascribed to the D'ivers Ryllandaras growing in power and capacity. I believe there were less jackals than there are wolves now too, back when Treach threw him off a cliff or something.

[Aptorian]

I don't think Rylandaras was insane, not in the traditional sense anyway. He talks to the defenders of Li Heng when they release him and he sounds more malicious than insane when he speaks. Likewise, he acts like a predator, only attacking at night, striking where people are vulnerable.

Basically Rylandaras was a feral monster that reveled in it's own bloody carnage.

[Cougar]

In Trakes thought's in I guess MoI, I can not be arsed looking it up, he ponders that Ryllandaras may have been the only one to master both D'ivers and Soletaken forms and this is the explanation given. It's a poorly thought out story line and there are loads of holes, ICE should have just made him a different character with a different name it would have been a lot simpler and it adds nothing to the story that it's got the same name.

[williamjm]

 Cougar, on Jan 8 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

ICE should have just made him a different character with a different name it would have been a lot simpler and it adds nothing to the story that it's got the same name.

When has simplicity ever been a priority in Malazan worldbuilding?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Simplicity is the last thing you'd find in the MboTF. Even the names of the soldiers are complex and intricate.

I'd say that Ryllandaras wasn't insane, but grew into a blood rage due to his long confinement. Btw, I forget how he died. Someone fill me in pl0x.

[Traveller]

 Cougar, on Jan 8 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

In Trakes thought's in I guess MoI, I can not be arsed looking it up, he ponders that Ryllandaras may have been the only one to master both D'ivers and Soletaken forms and this is the explanation given. It's a poorly thought out story line and there are loads of holes, ICE should have just made him a different character with a different name it would have been a lot simpler and it adds nothing to the story that it's got the same name.

The Ryllanderas and Ho stories gave two examples of how D'ivers could be broken up, with different results. If just one example had been included, it would have looked like a one-off, but two examples in one book show that D'ivers can be divided; which is at least a bit more than we knew before.

Also, Ho didn't appear to have been part of the group ritual mentioned in DG, but used 'ancient knowledge' to divide himself.

I'd say Ryllanderas (in Heng) acted like Trake in the way that he stayed in his animal form for so long that he became part beast, as he was revelling in the power. In that way, he's not necessarily insane, but is driven by less than human motives. Capturing him and locking him up for years just made him mad.

It looks like from Ho and Ryllanderas that soletaken/D'ivers are as sane as they want to be - if they deny their power, and use it carefully, they stay relatively sane, but if they give in to it they risk losing their humanity. Bit like ...Gruntle's buddy in MOI who turned into a sparrowhawk, and was so griefstricken about the death of his family that you got the impression he was never going to change back.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 09 January 2009 - 08:13 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Perhaps he still acted as a First Hero might?

[Benji]

 Ain't_It_Just_, on Jan 9 2009, 07:51 AM, said:

Simplicity is the last thing you'd find in the MboTF. Even the names of the soldiers are complex and intricate.

I'd say that Ryllandaras wasn't insane, but grew into a blood rage due to his long confinement. Btw, I forget how he died. Someone fill me in pl0x.

He was imprisoned by Kellanved.

Towards the end of RotCG, he was attacked by Liss, Rell, Amaron, Urko, Braven Tooth, Temper and Ferrule. Together, after the death of Rell and Amaron, Ryll was defeated. I think that Rell was the one who dealt the mortal blow, but he himself died for it.

[Aptorian]

Ryllandaras is not confirmed dead. Rel strikes a deep blow, Rylandaras screams and falls into what ever magic that old broad was working and the light goes out. Then there is no more, and since we don't hear any description of Rylandaras lying on the ground we have to assume the magic sent him some where. If he died from his wound is anyones guess, but this being the Malazan World... probably not.

[Cougar]

I also think that the way the Ho story line read it looked like a retcon by ICE to make it tie into Ryllandaras as part of the explanation, to me it was just clumsy. Ryllandaras should have been a different character in ICE's book, why he felt the need to make him the same dude I don't know, I just didn't really believe the explanation if that doesn't sound too mental.