[dawnkiller]

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

The number of "copies" a D'ivers has is clearly related to how strong they are. A D'ivers capable of overrunning a continent would be extremely strong. I imagine any D'ivers that approached that level would get killed by something, or at least cut down to size. They tend to be unsavoury characters who try to maintain a low profile. I doubt that, even without provocation, the ascendants and gods would sit back while, say, Gryllen, amassed that much power.

Hm, for larger forms I'd bet this is true -- the Pack was certainly strong, for one. But does that mean, conversely, that insectoid D'ivers, who seem few in number but create a veritable hoard when veered, are then really powerful? Mogora's got some Ardata juju going on, so that just leaves Gryllen and the bloodfly dude in the arena of smaller forms (and Gryllen seems to have eaten a couple of peers to have gotten as good as he was). We've also never knowingly seen a Soletaken insect-shapechanger, either. I don't know if it's simply not practical to take that form unless you're D'ivers, or if it's actually harder because it entails shifting away from even being warm-blooded. I mean, is there some poor bastard out there who got stuck with Soletaken stick insect?

I do enjoy the tendency for so many powers in Wu to keep their heads down, though. Makes for fun surprises.

"The Empire has no more High Mages."
"Uh, actually I think we have at least fi--"
"I SAID WE HAVE NO MORE HIGH MAGES."

[Dolorous Menhir]

dawnkiller, on Apr 8 2009, 07:17 PM, said:

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 12:39 PM, said:

The number of "copies" a D'ivers has is clearly related to how strong they are. A D'ivers capable of overrunning a continent would be extremely strong. I imagine any D'ivers that approached that level would get killed by something, or at least cut down to size. They tend to be unsavoury characters who try to maintain a low profile. I doubt that, even without provocation, the ascendants and gods would sit back while, say, Gryllen, amassed that much power.

Hm, for larger forms I'd bet this is true -- the Pack was certainly strong, for one. But does that mean, conversely, that insectoid D'ivers, who seem few in number but create a veritable hoard when veered, are then really powerful? Mogora's got some Ardata juju going on, so that just leaves Gryllen and the bloodfly dude in the arena of smaller forms (and Gryllen seems to have eaten a couple of peers to have gotten as good as he was). We've also never knowingly seen a Soletaken insect-shapechanger, either. I don't know if it's simply not practical to take that form unless you're D'ivers, or if it's actually harder because it entails shifting away from even being warm-blooded. I mean, is there some poor bastard out there who got stuck with Soletaken stick insect?

I do enjoy the tendency for so many powers in Wu to keep their heads down, though. Makes for fun surprises.

"The Empire has no more High Mages."
"Uh, actually I think we have at least fi--"
"I SAID WE HAVE NO MORE HIGH MAGES."

Interesting thought. I've always assumed that Soletaken would choose the animal form they took. If so, then it is easy to understand why someone would choose Soletaken Bear or Dragon over Soletaken Wasp.

[dawnkiller]

Dolorous Menhir, on Apr 8 2009, 01:41 PM, said:

Interesting thought. I've always assumed that Soletaken would choose the animal form they took. If so, then it is easy to understand why someone would choose Soletaken Bear or Dragon over Soletaken Wasp.

Yeah, I wondered about that too -- like, if the shape was assumed by choice or by nature, excepting the Eleint Soletaken, who either drank of or inherited Eleint blood (Olar Ethal or whatever notwithstanding, because I don't think we've ever seen a Not-Ascendant-Crafted-Human with the capacity beside them).

Although a single insect might have some advantages, at least if you wanted to sneak into a place...practically though, I guess D'ivers is a more practical choice for that direction. If you're going to turn into something squashable it's probably not a bad idea to have spares.

[Monoch Ochem]

dawnkiller, on Apr 8 2009, 07:17 PM, said:

"The Empire has no more High Mages."
"Uh, actually I think we have at least fi--"
"I SAID WE HAVE NO MORE HIGH MAGES."

LMAO!!

Well, at some time or other, I'm confident that one of the books or novellas will reveal the particulars of the rituals and what determines the veered outcome(s). But there are advantages to being both bigger and smaler. I think a d'ivers swarm of insects would be more difficult to get rid of and easier to control. Think of eradicating 20 strong tigers vs. eradicating a plague of bloodflies, about a cubic league in size.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Monoch Ochem, on Apr 8 2009, 10:40 PM, said:

dawnkiller, on Apr 8 2009, 07:17 PM, said:

"The Empire has no more High Mages."
"Uh, actually I think we have at least fi--"
"I SAID WE HAVE NO MORE HIGH MAGES."

LMAO!!

Well, at some time or other, I'm confident that one of the books or novellas will reveal the particulars of the rituals and what determines the veered outcome(s). But there are advantages to being both bigger and smaler. I think a d'ivers swarm of insects would be more difficult to get rid of and easier to control. Think of eradicating 20 strong tigers vs. eradicating a plague of bloodflies, about a cubic league in size.

If you were a Soletaken, would you want your weakness to be "flypaper"?

[beru]

in GotM Hairlock trys to take the soul of a Hound of shadow... i guess thats how soultaken is made... by intrigrating your soul with your own (so not like the souls inside QB tho he is probably soultaken)

[Dolmen 2.0]

HUUUGE BREATH:

Okey so this is how I see it.

Soletaken:
Powerful single entity. Power manifests in size, speed
and the creatures resilience increases (damage tolerance is high)

i.e.Messremb, bokarala demon, Treach, ryllandaras QT etc.

The absolute height of soletaken power would really
just be a VERY big and suped up Hyper genus of a known creature.
I'd imagine with enough growth a soletaken butterfly
could find its way up the evolutionary chain to a sole-
taken moth...but thats after putting in some serious hours
of work...

D'ivers soletaken:
slightly less Powerful physically. a multi-formed,
multi-conscious entity.
When power manifests the individual sizes might swell
a little but its the size of the group that grows
significantly increasing its overall tactical threat
and strength beyond that of a soletaken.

I.e. bloodfly guy, gryllen, the pack, ryllandaras 7c etc

Common denominators are:

The power and shape of the form is directionally proportionate to:
The strength/magic power of the original form
The amount of fellow soletaken/d'ivers consumed
The amount of worship received
The nature of the original form and its temperament

Soletaken/d'ivers can travell by warren

The Sanity of the original form is almost always sorely tested.

The height of the Soletaken/d'ivers ability is mastery of self (ho)
mastery of both disciplines (ryll) and mastery of others into self
(treach)

All this is an opinion based on what I've read so far. I raise this
all up to suggest three things.

1) I think Ryll is able to use at the very least tellan as a warren.
Due to what we saw during the path of hands they all could.
It shouldn't be a surprise to see him all over the world.

2) I think D'ivers are when sembled into many forms individual
traits of the original forms soul. as such they interact as individuals
ALA ho. I think that the Man-jackal Ryl was a part of Ryl that held a
grudge against the hengans and revolted against his pack deciding to hunt
the hengans. his path led to insanity, something the rational Ryll
wisely avoided. (just an elaboration of what we all suspect)

3) I think Soletaken Ryl is part man and part jackal as a result
of madness thus not being able to revert to his full human form but
trying anyways.

This is all theoretical but the spirit behind this is my hunch Ryll
is at war with himself and sensed the insane evil in him is would be
freed. he may be expecting a war with himself and is preparing for it...
thus 7c Rylls growing pack number

-a good rant a day keeps abyss at bay

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 09 February 2010 - 06:46 AM

[Sindriss]

Ain, on 08 January 2009 - 11:40 AM, said:

I found it odd, however, that while 7C Ryllandaras was in the guise of wolves, his Soletaken portion trapped in Li Heng was a jackal. Could this be some sort of adaptation/evolution?

This is explained in MoI, that Ryllandaras was the one to go the furthest of the soletaken empire. I read it last night before sleepytime!

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Dolmen, on 09 February 2010 - 06:42 AM, said:

The power and shape of the form is directionally proportionate to:
The amount of fellow soletaken/d'ivers consumed
The amount of worship received

I don't think that soletaken gain strength by consuming others of their kind. I'm assuming you're thinking of Tiam here and Rake and co drinking her blood, but I don't think thats analogous because she isn't a Soletaken, and eleint are clearly different than most soletaken varieties.

Also, I am not sure about the worship thing. I mean, I guess anything that is worshipped will gain some strength, but I don't know how much evidence we see of that. Ryllandaras white jackal form was worshipped by the Seti, and Treach as a sort of god of war even before his ascendance when he was still just a first hero. But those were powerful ascendants from the First Empire, as far as we know Messremb wasn't worshipped and he was on par w/them in terms of power it seemed.
Soletaken/d'ivers can travell by warren

Quote

The height of the Soletaken/d'ivers ability is mastery of self (ho)
mastery of both disciplines (ryll) and mastery of others into self
(treach)

All this is an opinion based on what I've read so far. I raise this
all up to suggest three things.

My take on Ryllandaras is this:
1. He veered into a D'ivers of himself, a la Ho.

2. He made one of those a soletaken white jackal, and another the wolves, and another the desert jackals or whatever it is Icarium and Mappo meet (I forget).

3. The three forms are all separate entities fully capable of functioning by themself, and having disagreements, like Ho showed us in RotCG

[amphibian]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 09 February 2010 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't think that soletaken gain strength by consuming others of their kind. I'm assuming you're thinking of Tiam here and Rake and co drinking her blood, but I don't think thats analogous because she isn't a Soletaken, and eleint are clearly different than most soletaken varieties.

It is implied that Gryllen grows more powerful by consuming other Soletaken and that yet others are doing similar things. Domination and subjugation may beget power.

Quote

2. He made one of those a soletaken white jackal, and another the wolves, and another the desert jackals or whatever it is Icarium and Mappo meet (I forget).

3. The three forms are all separate entities fully capable of functioning by themself, and having disagreements, like Ho showed us in RotCG

It's not been spelled out in the plainest terms, but the jackals Icarium and Mappo briefly see changed into the wolves that Karsa encounters later on.

D'ivers Ryllandaras "leveled up" for lack of a better short description of the change. Dolmen's theories seem to work; just remember that there's an "or" implied in much of it, as we've seen multiple paths and much really crazy stuff that adds new spin or concepts throughout the series.

[D'rek]

When Mappo and Iccy encounter Ryl in DG he is already desert wolves, hence Mappo comments on how Ryll used to be jackals back when Ryll clashed with Treach at Li Heng. I see no reason why Ryll can't be the same species of desert wolves when he meets Karsa later, he's just more numerous (probably gained a lot of power along the Path of Hands, enough to grow from 6 to about 14).

The thing that always bugs me, though, is that while Ryll seems to be going to extraordinary lengths like detaching a hybrid version of himself, to keep sane, Gryllen seems to have been perfectly sane without resorting to any extraordinary measures. And Gryllen actually goes around sembled as a man and working magic on dead bodies. So it doesn't seem *that* hard to be sane without doing something crazy like Ryll (or maybe Gryllen also detached a part of himself... and it became Whitemane/Bubyrd/Y'Ghatan).

And lastly - anyone else have the thought that Ryll's human sembled form is stuck in the man-jackal (hence the man part) and that's why Ryll always stays as wolves and doesn't go back to human? Heck even Treach went back and forth a few hundred years ago before he went insane...

[HoosierDaddy]

D, on 16 February 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

When Mappo and Iccy encounter Ryl in DG he is already desert wolves, hence Mappo comments on how Ryll used to be jackals back when Ryll clashed with Treach at Li Heng. I see no reason why Ryll can't be the same species of desert wolves when he meets Karsa later, he's just more numerous (probably gained a lot of power along the Path of Hands, enough to grow from 6 to about 14).

The thing that always bugs me, though, is that while Ryll seems to be going to extraordinary lengths like detaching a hybrid version of himself, to keep sane, Gryllen seems to have been perfectly sane without resorting to any extraordinary measures. And Gryllen actually goes around sembled as a man and working magic on dead bodies. So it doesn't seem *that* hard to be sane without doing something crazy like Ryll (or maybe Gryllen also detached a part of himself... and it became Whitemane/Bubyrd/Y'Ghatan).

And lastly - anyone else have the thought that Ryll's human sembled form is stuck in the man-jackal (hence the man part) and that's why Ryll always stays as wolves and doesn't go back to human? Heck even Treach went back and forth a few hundred years ago before he went insane...

Perhaps your last statement answers your first question? Treach stayed sane for a long time, before finally losing himself. Perhaps Gryllen was able to hold it off for longer? But, yes, him being stuck in half-semblance makes sense. However, that having an effect on Ryll doesn't, as he is BOTH soletaken and d'ivers. If he was just d'ivers with a detached mad member, would he then be sole'taken as well? Perhaps the absolute madness that is a result of all the insanity being shuffled into one form is the reason he remains in man-jackal form.

[MTS]

H.D., on 16 February 2010 - 03:03 AM, said:

D, on 16 February 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

When Mappo and Iccy encounter Ryl in DG he is already desert wolves, hence Mappo comments on how Ryll used to be jackals back when Ryll clashed with Treach at Li Heng. I see no reason why Ryll can't be the same species of desert wolves when he meets Karsa later, he's just more numerous (probably gained a lot of power along the Path of Hands, enough to grow from 6 to about 14).

The thing that always bugs me, though, is that while Ryll seems to be going to extraordinary lengths like detaching a hybrid version of himself, to keep sane, Gryllen seems to have been perfectly sane without resorting to any extraordinary measures. And Gryllen actually goes around sembled as a man and working magic on dead bodies. So it doesn't seem *that* hard to be sane without doing something crazy like Ryll (or maybe Gryllen also detached a part of himself... and it became Whitemane/Bubyrd/Y'Ghatan).

And lastly - anyone else have the thought that Ryll's human sembled form is stuck in the man-jackal (hence the man part) and that's why Ryll always stays as wolves and doesn't go back to human? Heck even Treach went back and forth a few hundred years ago before he went insane...

Perhaps your last statement answers your first question? Treach stayed sane for a long time, before finally losing himself. Perhaps Gryllen was able to hold it off for longer? But, yes, him being stuck in half-semblance makes sense. However, that having an effect on Ryll doesn't, as he is BOTH soletaken and d'ivers. If he was just d'ivers with a detached mad member, would he then be sole'taken as well? Perhaps the absolute madness that is a result of all the insanity being shuffled into one form is the reason he remains in man-jackal form.

If the man-jackal form is unable to change, and separate from the rest of Ryll, then no, the man-jackal isn't technically Soletaken. Perhaps Ryll divorcing himself of all his madness - if indeed that is what he did - created a new consciousness that is separate and does not contain the skill to veer/semble?

[Gothos]

What amuses me most about RotCG Ryllandaras is his form. It's not completely like other Soletaken, since they turn into giant animals, yet here we have a demi form, sort of like a werejackal.

[Harvester]

Actually werejackal is quite fitting - after all, *wera is Germanic for "man".

[Dolmen 2.0]

I think there is also one more thing we mustn't forget
Ryllandaras Grows along the line of canis. sembling from the form
of jackals to that of wolves...

now...can anyone recall what creature THE NEW GOD OF WINTER IS?
and all those grey swords redmask encountered? suppose it was Ryl
that ate their hearts?

-coincidence? Not in the malaz dictionary.

[Gothos]

It's Togg and Fanderay. And their wolves ate the hearts of the Grey Swords sworn to them - makes perfect sense, along the lines that crows took Coltaine's soul, etc.

[Harvester]

I think or at least hope he was joking.