[Aptorian]

 The Crow, on Aug 14 2009, 09:10 PM, said:

 Onos, on Dec 3 2008, 01:48 AM, said:

"Enough to give anyone trouble. Shimmer, Blues, maybe even Skinner" - Iron Bars MT

I would infer from that that Skinner is tops, followed by Blues then Shimmer.

"It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that he (Iron Bars) was nearly a match for Skinner. And now Corlo believed it" Corlo MT

Not sure where to put Iron Bars now. I have no other evidence of Blues and Shimmer... so might still keep Iron Bars above them unless someone can contradict me.

Well, it is said, in ROTCG and other places, that Blues is the Guards finest swordsman. So I say he should rank above Skinner, although to be honest I don't know what else they could've used in comparison to say that Skinner is better than Blues.


Oh and, in reply to Apt saying that Brood shouldn't be brought in because he doesn't wield a sword...well, then why the heck is Trull on the list?

Also, Grubb

Actually it says something in the lines of Blues being the "finess" swordsman. Meaning he's something of a talent with the blade. Like a trick shot with a gun. I suspect that he probably has a handle of the blade that would give Brys a run for the money.

Skinner on the other hand is mention as being the better/stronger fighter. Meaning, over all he's meaner than blues and will kill you with his teeth if he gets the chance, it's not just his blade you need to worry about.

Trull is brought up again and again because he's been seen in opposition of some of the greater swordsmen, and his capabilities are always compared with Brys.

Brood on the other hand we've never seen fight and we don't know if he would use a sword or if he's actually capable of/willing to wield Burns hammer in a battle. Personally I'm guessing the Warlord is very capable with most weapons, but I can't really see the brute being a star with a sword.

[The Crow]

Guess it would be easier to just rename it "Best Fighter" thread instead of Best Swordsman...that way we could fit in all the assassins as well.

But yeah, it's possible that Skinner is better in terms of strength/stamina (not to mention that damn armor he's got), but I still think that if Skinner is up at #7, then Blues shouldn't be at #16. He's not just named the "finess" swordsman, he's named the "Premier Swordsman of the Guard" and "Master of Blades" and stuff like that.

In a 1v1 fight against Skinner I'm also fairly sure he'd win, especially if you count in that he's a mage. And yes, I know we ain't measuring magic strength here, since then obviously the strength of ascendants and Elder races like Rake and Osserc would skyrocket...and on the same thought, why ain't Osserc on the list? I mean, surely he's better than Whiskeyjack, Shimmer, Blues, Skinner (and most likely also Kallor and Rell?)...not to mention that he should obviously rank above Spinnock (I'd take this one as a given). And Draconus should be on the list too, for that matter.

[Aptorian]

We've had this discussion earlier in the thread, I think, but it's stated more than once, that in a one on one confrontation between assassins and soldiers, the assassin loses.

Unless the assassin gets a lucky throw or manages to make a nick with a poisoned blade, it's assumed that armor and length of weapons gives an edge over the knife user.

At the level of skills we're discussing here the swordsmen could litterally pick a flying blade out of the air, so we're talking straight up knife vs long blade fights here. And while Rake suspected Cots could prove a problem in a one on one between them, I don't think Rake expected Cots to play fair and do a proper duel knife to sword.

Assassins work in the unseen, they're not supposed to do duels.

EDIT: By the way, about Brood. I think, like Karsa, you also have a problem fighting him up close. He's super powered and if you're, say mortal sword brys, and try and block him I think you'll turn into pudding.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 14 August 2009 - 08:14 PM

[The Crow]

Yeah, I agree that most assassin's would be hacked to minced meat vs an equally skilled swordsman, but some of them would still get quite high on this list. For example, I'm pretty sure Dancer/Cots would rope his way through everyone up to the Top Ten, and even there he'd probably come out victorious against Skinner, Greymane and Brys...although I doubt he'd take Karsa. So I'd say Dancer should be roughly #7 on the list.

I'm also quite sure Cowl, Topper, Aps and possibly Kalam would rate on the top 20 as well.
On the same note, I would like to know what exactly the Shadow Dance does...if it's actually something more than just a powered up Omnislash.

[Aptorian]

The Shadow dance makes you move in and out of visibility, maybe even physical space. Question is if it's actual illusions or just shadows concealing you and whether they give you protection from hits/slashes.

Cots actions on the Edur ships in HOC suggests it's something rather scary when a master ascendant is using it.

The problem with comparing Dancer/Cots and other claws/Talons with other fighters is that they often rely on more than pure physical talent. They employ their magical abilities. We're discussing skill not power. Otherwise we'd have to change a lot in the list and the top ranked would be Icarium, Raest, Jhenna, etc.

Cots rope is not really a proper weapon, it's an extension of his will, striking back and forth like a snake. eating its way into Edur skulls, etc.

[Grief]

 Euler, on Aug 11 2009, 09:07 PM, said:

ok!

I will add these into categories, since for example I belive there are several characters who are equally good, its more luck, fuckup that makes one or the other win, also some clearly have advantage over other chars, considering they are gods/ascendats etc...

anyway here goes:

Category 1: ( these are the best of the best sofar, I am not adding Draconus, Osserc etc, cause we havnt seen those fight yet, though I think they would fit into category 1 )

Dassem ( have not seen anyone close to beating him sofar in the books )

Rake ( could hold an even footing with Dassem )

Seguleh 1, 2, 3 ( have not seem 1 yet or 2 fight with swords yet but they should be equal/ better then mok )

Brys ( made short work of undying emperor, slicing him up better then most surgeons )


Category 2: ( awesome swordsmen but not unbeatable like the guys above, ALOT of swordsmen/fighters in the book could be placed in this category, ill give a few )

Greymane ( he seemed evenly matched against skinner, seems to use more power then finesse )

I'd disagree about a couple of things here:

1. Rake, or so is generally held, let Dassem kill him. The scene suggests it, "cheated" and how Rake sets up the fight to die by dragnipur for his own purposes, as well as Rakes motivations/plans(he needed to die to reconcile the andii) and the fact he could easily have destroyed Dassem with magic if he wanted to remain alive.

2. Brys is quite a grey area. Yes, what he did against Rhulad required skill, but Rhulad wasn't a brilliant swordsman, and he did sacrifice a finger for it.

3. I'd say Tool should be higher. He gave Mok a close fight, while severely weakened(stated earlier MoI-he is in a weakened state for the duration of the book).

4. Graymane is also quite a grey area. We haven't seen much that makes me think too highly of him, however Brood does rank him with Rake, Dassem etc in MoI.

[Aptorian]

Rake throwing magic at Dassem would probably not work when Dassem is all focussed and pissed off and holding Vengeance. I think it would have been like throwing water on a duck.

And I think that Mok was far more dangerous than Tool, and I don't think the damage to him would have made much of a difference. In fact, consider that T'lan Imass are stronger and more durable than human beings and Mok still crushed Tool with apparent ease.

[The Crow]

Quote

The Shadow dance makes you move in and out of visibility, maybe even physical space. Question is if it's actual illusions or just shadows concealing you and whether they give you protection from hits/slashes.

Yeah that's what I meant with Omnislash, more like the Yurn version than the Cloud version though...hrm, well.

Yeah, some assassin's use a lot of magic when fighting (Cowl comes into mind), but I stick to my opinion that Cots and most likely at least some of either Aps, Topper or Kalam could rank in the top 20, even considering only the mêlée arts.

This post has been edited by The Crow: 14 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

[Grief]

 Aptorian, on Aug 14 2009, 10:08 PM, said:

Rake throwing magic at Dassem would probably not work when Dassem is all focussed and pissed off and holding Vengeance. I think it would have been like throwing water on a duck.

And I think that Mok was far more dangerous than Tool, and I don't think the damage to him would have made much of a difference. In fact, consider that T'lan Imass are stronger and more durable than human beings and Mok still crushed Tool with apparent ease.

I disagree.

For one if Mok was that much better the fight wouldn't be necessary. Mok knows it's close and Tool is weakened at that point.

As for Rake magicking Dassem I don't see why not. Anger isn't that much of a defense, not against the power Rake can command, imo. I also think vengeance isn't some sort of magic unbeatable sword. Dassem isn't a magician. So being focused and that, isn't really going to be that helpful against a solid blast of Kurald Galain. Rake can turn into a dragon. He can move through warrens. If he wanted ot kill Dassem he could just bugger off and sit firing magic bolts from afar. Dassem would be dead long before he would be tired, in my opinion. We haven't seen anything from Dassem to suggest that he is that rawly powerful. Very skilled with a sword yes-powerful like Rake, or Raest, or Osserc-no. Willpower doesn't equate to being unkillable when someone fire's at you with magic and you can't defend yourself.

Also, that is only one of the reasons.

[Aptorian]

 Grief, on Aug 14 2009, 11:51 PM, said:

As for Rake magicking Dassem I don't see why not. Anger isn't that much of a defense, not against the power Rake can command, imo. I also think vengeance isn't some sort of magic unbeatable sword. Dassem isn't a magician. So being focused and that, isn't really going to be that helpful against a solid blast of Kurald Galain. Rake can turn into a dragon. He can move through warrens. If he wanted ot kill Dassem he could just bugger off and sit firing magic bolts from afar. Dassem would be dead long before he would be tired, in my opinion. We haven't seen anything from Dassem to suggest that he is that rawly powerful. Very skilled with a sword yes-powerful like Rake, or Raest, or Osserc-no. Willpower doesn't equate to being unkillable when someone fire's at you with magic and you can't defend yourself.

Also, that is only one of the reasons.

Well considering what we see and hear in HOC I think I am right.

Andarist wields Grief and stands before the combined power of some 3 or 4 Edur K'rishnan and doesn't even get singed. More over the swords strength is amplified by the wielders will power. Dassem's determination is like a force of nature. I think you could have thrown everything and the kitchen sink magic wise at the guy and he'd come out of there with out a skratch. Oh, there probaby is ways to get around the sword, Rake would know he made it, but the sword is strong and it's magical.

On top of this consider that Dassem is an ascendant and something suggests that he probably also has a personal warren.

[Silencer]

And Andarist is Rake's brother. Read that again. You think a few Edur warlocks could take him out? XD

[Aptorian]

Yeah, I do. Andarist was rather pathetic.

Are you arguing that Andarist would be even close to matching the power of Dassem Ultor?

[Silencer]

No. Though he would easily be so, if he had not renounced his Draconic blood. I still seem to miss the part where we have seen Dassem exhibit magical abilities, though.

However, the man IS a Tiste Andii, of what amounts to the 'first generation' of Mother Dark's children. A few K'risnan could not possibly have been any more dangerous to him than they would be to some other ascendant.

[Sinisdar Toste]

dassem hasn't really exhibited magical abilities, per se(and how i hate to use that expression), its more the fact that he refuses to let his life be taken. he climbs out of that jacuruku warlocks little ritual without a scratch. now i'm not saying that the warlock and rake are any comparison, its just a reference to the nature of dassems power. its personal.

chillbais is so terrified of his will that he even believes it could heal the moon for Hoods sake. is there any wonder that hiim and karsa got along so well? they have so much in common.

[Silencer]

*would like to point out that Ereko was there to pull Dassem out, and that Ereko is basically the last surviving MASTEROFALLTHINGSEARTH aka Thel Akai*

That is all.

[Sinisdar Toste]

granted, but my point is still somewhat valid

[Keyjell]

Icarium can take out a continent, if he powered up enough. Seeing as he probably can hold his own for a while against the best swordsman/fighter, without going super saiyan, I'd say he would be a fair bet if he got the time to go crazy.

To be fair, the list should be about the best fighters.
Urko should be a contender. Not sure about his skill with a weapon, but seeing as he fights without one, and still managed to take out avowed guards in one punch (or was it the base of his palm?) he could trouble a few people on that list
Laseen managed to kill people without the use of weapons as well, toe to toe against armored opponents even.

[Blacksox]

 Euler, on Aug 11 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

 Blacksox, on Jul 26 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

Top fighters so far based completely on displayed martial skill for me. I am leaving Icarium out as I am not sure how to rate him.

1. Rake

2. Dassem

3. Karsa

4. Bryce

5. Mok

6. Silchas Ruin

7. Trull

8. Tool

9. Kallor

10. Rell

11. Iron Bars

12. Blues

13. Spinnoc

14. Skinner

15. Greymane

Why is kallor and spinnock so high? they werent really impressive. I think most awoved could match them, and afew whop their asses easily ( for example blues, shimmer and iron bars would prolly all kick the crap out of kallor ). also if you count martial prowess you have forgetten all the assassins, I belive Kalam, Dancer, Cowl, Topper, Laseen etc for example would give most of these a run for their money.

Greymane and skinner should also be moved up abit, if you add skinners armor he should prolly be nr 3.

Well let's see.

Spinnock fought his way across the entire continent of Assail. Is repeatedly mentioned as the best swordman among non ascedent Tiste Andii. Was stated to have stood in for Rake for centuries. Not a bad resume.

Kallor is mentioned by everyone who sees him as a bad ass. Has repeatedly demonstarted his skills in combat only being on the losing side of one battle and that against an uber bad ass. This despite him being decrepid and cursed. I know the curse gives him cetain advantages but before the curse he was called a warrior without equal. I would say Blues and Skinner would give Kallor a good run for his money, but I am not over impressed with Skinner and I think without his armor he would probably lose to Kallor.

Greymane will probably end up higher but so far he has lost the only real fight we have seen him in. If he had used his sword he might have won but I reserve moving him up until I see more of him.

This post has been edited by Blacksox: 16 August 2009 - 01:41 AM

[Silk]

Ok, strictly speaking Trull shouldn't be in the lsit as he uses a Spear and not a sword ;o)

[Silk]

Also... another thought here.. .there is mention about Dassem taking a while to get through WiskeyJacks guard, and if it hadn't been for his dodgy knee he would have taken Kallor.....