[L'oric]

Lisheo, on Feb 17 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

It's only suggested, not actually said. But aye. Also, by the sounds of it, he's probably older than Mok, hence his sending away of him. All in all, the First is an enigma, and something to do with the Tyrant and the Torrud Cabal. As Baruk, leader of the Cabal is ascendant, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the first was too.

Maybe most of the ruling Agatii elders are Ascendants from the time of the tyrant as Baruk and the Cabal are. From time to time someone like Rell or Mok or Therule breaks into the Agatii but for the most part there is room for those at the top to be lowered as far as Rank goes but still useful all in all.

I am starting to dream of an Avowed like quality to the top 20 or 100 Agatii. With the 1st having been around as long as Baruk and the 2nd and a few others coming along for the ride. I wonder if that would mean that Baruk would know him.

I will ponder and hope along these lines until answered.

Sincerely

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Grief, on Feb 16 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Brys' fight was visible. The moves could be seen.
Rake and Dassem, no-one could even follow what was happening.

I think it's just important to keep in mind that Rake and Dassem probably don't ruminate on the words of their Ceda before a fight (in that they don't think about the need to render their opponents alive but helpless); I am not trying to belittle Brys' skill, and indeed I rank him quite high personally, but I just don't think that anybody can beat Dassem.

This post has been edited by Where is Dassem Ultor?: 18 February 2009 - 04:03 AM

[Silencer]

Except the guy who manipulated him into killing him, right?

[Viandaran]

Silencer, on Feb 17 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

Except the guy who manipulated him into killing him, right?

heh-heh...

AND SO IT BEGINS.... AGAIN!

[Silencer]

Nooooo! No more! My comment was meant in jest! Truly! Can we just leave it? Please? *dies*

[L'oric]

Silencer, on Feb 19 2009, 12:55 AM, said:

Nooooo! No more! My comment was meant in jest! Truly! Can we just leave it? Please? *dies*

Damn! I was about to go into another short/long diatribe about the meaning of swordskill and show the depth of my knowledge and understanding of the characters in this series....oh and of course add that Rake is dead....maybe.

Sincerely

[Onos]

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 04:56 AM, said:

muco, on Feb 16 2009, 09:24 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Feb 15 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Instead of answering my question, you have once again changed the goalposts into now being about when Karsa's guard was breached. You don't respsond to my points but change what the argument is about.
I asked for fights against top swordsmen. You bring up breaching of his guard against Icarium and Edur of mediocre level. (I am including Rhulad in this as he relied on his unkillable factor, not his skill level)
Dassem has killed scores of medicore Edur, Mok/Tool killed scores of mediocre Pannions.
Don't think their guard was ever breached.

But very well:
As stated by another poster, Karsa relied on strength/reach of his arms, not sword skill to take out the Segulah. He stamped the ground, then picked her up.
So yes, technically, she didn't breach his guard. But he certainly wasn't relying on skill with a sword there.
For Icarium, he didn't breach Karsa's guard either. Karsa was able to knock him out. However, their swords only clashed ONCE. There was no repeated parries. Is that really classified as a sword fight? Since Karsa's sword was broken after the first clash of blades its a bit of an exaggeration to state that Icarium could not therefore breach Karsa's guard. We would have to leave that as a "don't know" At least with Trull we had repeated parries against Icarium. Not Karsa.

(Rhulad did actually breach Karsa's guard when his sword went through Karsa's leg, but that may hae been necessary for Karsa to journey to the Crippled God's island. So I won't mention that one)

No, Karsa is nowhere near the top level of Sword fighting skill.
And how about responding to my arguments eh? Now that I have responded to yours. And don't change the frame of debate again.
Silchas Ruin > Karsa . I did prove it logically after all.

huh...I am sorry I didn't know Icarium was of mediocre level.

And you seriously are not saying Karsa didn't display skill with the sword against the Seguleg?!! We must have definitly read different books. It was not as if Karsa immediately stomped his ground and broke her. There was actually a sword fight there. consider this..in ROTCG, Iron Bars didn't even have a clue against someone who was like 200th of something like that. This was the 11th Karsa was fighting.

And the same with Rhulad...Rhulad did everything he could possibly do and didn't even scratch Karsa. That was a long fight. Rhulad is not in the same class as Dassem but he doesn't need to be if Karsa is not as good for a breach of guard.

And your logic with the the whole Silchas ruin, sorry buddy it doesn't cut. I could counter that by saying Karsa strangled a derogath, Silchas in any form would not match up Karsa physically and his magic, I will say will have minimal effect on Karsa. What then?

You asked me to show proof how good Karsa is with a sword and I have. Its not my fault if no one actaully lasts long enough against Karsa to test mettle.

Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that.

1: Stop bringing up Deragoth/Hounds of Light/Hounds of Darkness! They are freaking dogs! What the hell do they have to do with sword fighting?

2: Countering my Silchas Ruin swordfighting example with a non-swordfighting strangulation example is insane. You ignored the fact that the beings Silcahs Ruin fought were Toblaki GODS. Hence they have to be as least as strong as Karsa. And they would have the same magical resitant effects as him. Plus we know that Silcas killed them with his swords, not magic.
Please address facts, not conveniently ignore them when they don't agree with your interpretation.

3: Rhulad is not an amazing sword fighter. He is ok. Not amazing. He is beaten many times, hence why he dies a lot. And I guess I will have to bring up the fact that he DID breach Karsa's guard. Since you seem to lack the basic idea of debating on facts, I'll use unfair facts that are inconvenient to your argument.

4: Against' Icarium, do yuu deny that their swords clashed only once? Because thats what happened.

5: The Segulah fight.
The sequence of the fight was:
Karsa stamps the ground.
Their swords clash and her wrists break.
He picks her up.
Do you deny this sequence of events?

Once again a sword fight not decided by swordfighting skill on Karsa's part. It was decided on his stamping the ground, breaking her wrists with his strength and his reach by picking her up.
I am not denying its skill from Karsa, but its not SWORDFIGHTING SKILL.

"Meh...Dassem himself states Karsa scares him. I wouldn't argue that."
And Karsa himsself could not see Dassem's sword parries or stand between Rake and Dassem. More facts to be ignored I guess?

Ah, a funny post. (Though i agree with your arguments) I usually have to walk away before getting that upset. Starting to wish i could restart this post and limit it to people making sound arguments, without repeating things over and over.

This post has been edited by Onos: 19 February 2009 - 07:03 PM

[Scorekeeper]

I've just read all 28 pages. Now that Rake's (hopefully) gone for good, Dassem is Primera Espada. But before his timely death, Anomander Rake would definitely be my choice for King of High House Sword.

[HoosierDaddy]

You, sir (or madame), deserve a nice WTF would you bother reading all this drivel for? Impressive Karsaesque will power.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 20 February 2009 - 02:10 AM

[L'oric]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 19 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

You, sir (or madame), deserve a nice WTF would you bother reading all this drivel for? Impressive Karsaesque will power.

And he held himself to a one line post. After 28 pages of reading...1 line seems either too little or like they forced themselves to write something for all those cyclical arguments.

[Scorekeeper]

The topic has been beaten as thoroughly as Gaz's victims. Virtually every rational viewpoint imaginable has been represented regarding nearly everyone who uses a long sword (note: not necessarily a longsword, as Karsa's bastard sword is a bastard sword's bastard sired on a boulder). What more could I add? My reasoning has been presented by others before I even joined this forum.

I did enjoy a few roffles at the unwitting expense of one perpetrator of aggressively ignorant posting, but surely he must've been trolling.

Ooh, I know what I can contribute:

Karsaesque? More like Dassemesque. The latter is, after all, the one who could possibly, theoretically, under the right conditions, after eating a good breakfast and having a roll w/someone like Scillara, make Dragnipur explode with his mind.

[HoosierDaddy]

The problem is that it was with sheer ignorance that you took up the quest of reading this entire thread (at least I hope, for your sake). Daswordsem Swordster would have alread left. Karsa would have waited around to kill everyone for making this thread, as "WITNESSES!" of his judgment.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 20 February 2009 - 07:33 AM

[Onos]

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 08:43 AM, said:

Slicing tendons with a sword without opening blood vessels?
Are you crazy????



"The list of things some of other swordsmen have managed that Brys couldn't is far longer than the list of things that Brys could do that they couldn't."


Apart from duelling other swordmasters there is nothing that Brys could not do.Nothing you can prove anyway
You cant even prove that Rake or Dassem can do what Brys did.
You just speculate
I dont say that Brys can take them out but considering what he did a simple task is completely irrational
Only Brys and Mok have shown that kind of skill among mortals

ALL trained Seguleh can do this or at least something similar. Reference Mok and his 2 buddies. Rell. And the fellow Iron Bars fights. That is how they are trained. By your same logic nothing you can say can prove that hundreds of other swordsman also cant do what Brys did.

[Onos]

Aptorian, on Feb 16 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

BeLeG, on Feb 16 2009, 03:50 PM, said:

because they were not aiming at tendons!
If Brys could aim at tendons in speed unimaginable for the eye then he would chop both Dassem and Rake to pieces at the same time.Stop comparing different things

Well Aptorian if Mok can survive against a small army, Brys can do it also
Please remember that none of them has super powers

What are you on about?

Brys didn't perform his little feat in a fight. He did it on a guy who was defenseless. And he didn't do it at some kind of miraculous speed. He actually took his time about it.

I keep saying this and nobody seems to care, what Brys did to Rhulad doesn't translate into actual fighting skill. It doesn't matter if you're just aiming for the thigh or a certain area of the thigh, if your opponent is able to block your shots.

Besides this, Erikson stating it in the book or not, Brys was lucky to not hit any major arteries, that part wasn't skill. You may deduce the probability of the placement of certain veins and tendons but each human body is different and this was even edur physique.

EDIT: Mok was all cut up in the end of MoI and he had the assistance of his buddies, a T'lan Imass, an ascendant powerhouse and two monster dogs. I wasn't discussion Mok, I was saying that I thought Brys wouldn't be so lucky against a small army as Karsa and Dassem was.

EDIT2: Just for the record I also recon Mok is better than Brys. SImply because we've only seen Brys fight the sea guardian and Rhulad.

I agree with you on this! I said it 20+ pages ago and stopped arguing it except for responding to a few select annoying comments

[Onos]

Lisheo, on Feb 16 2009, 09:27 AM, said:

Well, while I descend here in moments of dullness for a little bit of banter, you can't ever say who's the best swordsman, because a lot of the clashes are off-screen or not described in blow-by-blow detail. So I find this thread to be a little bit silly, at the best of times.
Besides.

Iccy FTW

Since your comment doesnt really add anything of value i can add a similar one. I disagree with you. "Never ever" statements are almost always unattainable. At the very least there are some facts most people can agree on.

You can always start your own thread "you cant every know who is better thread" and i hope i have the class to stay away from it since i have nothing to add to it.

This reminds me of a guy who is allergic to milk then goes on drinking milk just to taste something different. Then gets sick...

[Onos]

blackzoid, on Feb 16 2009, 12:00 PM, said:

"Rhulad had died four times before he fought Brys. He never showed any great build up of skill or strength. Iron Bars took him apart like he was nothing. To be honest even after his hundred deaths and fight with Karsa, he seemed pathetic... such a disappointment.
Beating Rhulad does not make Brys greater than any other swordfighter... except Rhulad"

Good call on the sword being a disappointment. Seriously how many crappy fighters can exist in the world for Rhulad to beat without showing any substantial improvement. Not that Karsa ever worries but Rhulad hardly even put a sweat on him

[Onos]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 16 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

He damaged an Azath. Anyways, as this thread has made relevant the fact that the Azath doesn't have a sword to hit back with.

LOL Where should Azath be on the list? 6th?? LOL Just ahead of Dergaroth? Or Handy, the new hound of Shadow that has an arm growing out of his back? (for wielding swords)

[BeLeG]

all trained seguleh can do this?

ok prove it

prove that all Seguleh can slice tendons without killing the victim in the same speed as Brys did

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 21 February 2009 - 11:11 AM

[Aptorian]

In the fight where Iron Bars fights the low level seguleh on the boat, Iron bars is practically scared at the talent the seguleh is displaying. Every move he makes is with extreme precision, every strike he makes aims for specific place like the major artery in a leg, the jugular vein, etc.

And I repeat. Brys was not slicing up Rhulad at some kind of incredible speed, he took his time, when Rhulad was down. moving him around, deliberating on the places he needed to open up.

And even if this was some amazing ability that only Brys exelled in, it doesn't really matter because a skilled opponent can block you shot whether your aiming just for the leg or one specific square milimeter of the leg.

[BeLeG]

Aptorian, on Feb 21 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

In the fight where Iron Bars fights the low level seguleh on the boat, Iron bars is practically scared at the talent the seguleh is displaying. Every move he makes is with extreme precision, every strike he makes aims for specific place like the major artery in a leg, the jugular vein, etc.

And I repeat. Brys was not slicing up Rhulad at some kind of incredible speed, he took his time, when Rhulad was down. moving him around, deliberating on the places he needed to open up.

And even if this was some amazing ability that only Brys exelled in, it doesn't really matter because a skilled opponent can block you shot whether your aiming just for the leg or one specific square milimeter of the leg.

tendons are really harder to strike than a major artery.Anyway what the Seguleh did seems like a different thing though it also demands great swordskills.
Brys did slice Rhulad at some kind of incredible speed otherwise Trull would not mention his speed and his ability to slice tendons without opening major blood vessels at such speed.
We dont really know Brys's true skill with a sword but people must stop underestimating what he did to Rhulad