[BeLeG]

Trull's son

Brys is VERY modest

Guardian:are you considered a fine swordsman in your land?
Brys:passing

though he was considered the best in Letheras
Moments before his death, Moroch Nevath confessed to himself that Brys was much better.At least that's what I understood from the scene

[Trull's son]

yes but brys wasnt so skilled to disuade nevath from thinking he was his match. besides, no matter how amazing Brys was in MT, iron bars displayed much more skill against 5 tartheno (yet Iron Bars is usually ranked lower than Brys??). there just isnt enough evidence to support Brys in the top 5, maybe in the top 10 but not the five. Fear sengar believes he could hold Brys for a while. is he considered to be among the best? no. Brys is among my favorite characters, but i dont think his high ranking is justified.

He loses his finger, not because he is trying t attack Rhulad in a specific place, but because he was suprised by Rhulad's speed. How many times could Brys have killed him? my guess, with Rulhad improving after every death, not very many times sadly. I daresay the nameless challenger that was said to have killed the emporor several times would have beaten Brys.

Why can't I find the nameless challenger's name on the list??!!

[A zen-like chill]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 13 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

I think it has already been pointed out but in MoI Rake is the only one Kallor is scared of and we're talking of a guy who has lived 1000 of years and so must have seen lots of powerful and scary guys.

I would submit that Kallor is also quite afraid of Caladan Brood (of whom we really don't know enough to judge whether it was his skill/power level, or his hammer - but that hammer is pretty mean.....Kruppe aside, of course).

On another note, that of the general post:

I think a lot of you are confusing "skill" with "power". As an example: Fiddler can kill just about anyone with a cusser shot from his crossbow. Does that make him more skilled? No. It makes him, in that instance, more powerful.


From what I've read, Icarium and Karsa are nearly equally skilled, Karsa perhaps more so. Icarium is quite definitely more powerful, though. Karsa is immune to minor magic, strongly resistant to elder magic. Icarium is like an ICBM, from what I understand. When he goes off, the continent does too. Karsa vs. Icarium - Karsa would have to kill Icarium before Icarium cuts loose (which is entirely possible, but if Icarium managed to open all the way up, Karsa would be ash-as well as likely every surrounding country).

As to raw skill (or talent at fighting hand to hand/weapon- i.e. NOT magic) Dassem and Rake displayed enough skill to leave Karsa in awe. That pretty much leads to the belief that both are more skilled. Brys crippled Rhulad, in less time than Karsa took to remove his arm (granted, Rhulad suffered many more deaths in between, making him become both more powerful, and more skilled than while fighting Brys).

Things like Iron Bars taking out the Toblakai gods do not apply-he was only able to do that because he is virtually immortal, and he had help from his mage buddy "confusing" the gods. That whole power vs skill thing comes into play there.

In my opinion, Dassem is the best we've seen yet (now that Rake is dead....as to which one was better, we'll likely never know - though I'd lean towards Rake's hundreds of thousands of years of experience and practice to give him the edge - then again, his sword was a factor, requiring just a single cut to win) "skill"-wise. Several have more "power" - at the moment. Rake certainly did, Icarium most definitely does as well.

We have yet to see the Seguleh first fight the Malazan first (the real one, the other is a punk bitch). At that point, we'll know.


I would also like to mention someone I haven't seen in this topic: Laseen. She killed how many avowed? Bare-handed?

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter at the moment.

This post has been edited by A zen-like chill: 15 February 2009 - 02:26 AM

[muco]

blackzoid, on Feb 14 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

I leave it to you sir, to counterpoint with facts showing that Karsa has won any sword fight with a top swordsman using skill only. I'm quite confident that there are no examples from the books that you can draw on.

Thats fair...

Well, the only argument to make my point I have is, Karsa has fought single opponents, multiple opponents in the series with a sword. Please quote an instance from the book where his guard was breached. Even Seguleh 11th couldn't breach his defense, nor did Icarium. The scores of Edur he fought with a sword didn't even scratch him. How about Rhulad?

And I have already said as a pure swordsman, Dassem, Rake and 1st are above Karsa.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'm sorry but Icarium did breach Karsa's defense. If Karsa hadn't decided that he didn't care they were dueling and simply punched him in the face, there wouldn't have been any more of Karsa.And the Seguleh 11th didn't have any chance to breach his defence because Karsa made her loos her balance befor she could do that.
Once again this prooves that Karsa relies more on strenght then on skill. Mind you, I'm not saying that Karsa is a bad swordman, just that I don't believe is in "the best" category

[Toc]

Trull's son, on Feb 15 2009, 12:46 AM, said:

Why can't I find the nameless challenger's name on the list??!!

If you can prove that the nameless challanger actually used a sword, we'll put him up there right next to Rake.


But on to the subject, as BeLeG stated, Brys was very modest, yet he was considered the best swordsman in Letheras. And if I remember correctly he was also very young, like around 25 or something. No thousands years of experience, no special weapon/armor, no ascendent. Just a young swordsman who had to rely completely on his skill in a swordfight.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I think the Tarthenal that killed Rhulad7 times used an axe but I don't have a quote so I can't be sure.

Anyway yes Brys was the best swordman in Lether but I don't think therew ere so many good duellist in Lether. I mean the second best guy was the Prince's guard and he was nothing exceptional

[Lisheo]

I believe Bauch is right. It's buried with him or some such.
Also, said unnamed challenger was a nearly full-blooded Tarthenal, so were getting back into the Karsa debate. And Brys didn't kill Rhulad. He operated on him. It's reasonably easy to kill a guy who knows he'll be back and thus has no real fear of death, really now. It's harder to be so exact with a longsword that you sever tendons without cutting arteries. I mean, seriously, ever swung a longsword at someone? Killing, I suspect, wouldn't be that difficult, compared to using a long heavy bar of iron to cut perhaps less than an inch of space at a precise depth, while the guy is trying to kill you.

[Toc]

@Bauchelain
True enough, as far as we know.
But Brys managed to defeat the Guardian of the Forgotten Gods. And you kind of have to assume that the Guardian must've been something special, given his task.

This post has been edited by Toc: 15 February 2009 - 11:14 AM

[Grief]

Actually not sure Karsa could've killed Icarium, had he tried.

Firstly:

Deadhouse gates, we see Icarium keening, even though hes unconcious.

Secondly:

Remember Dassem in Nok, when the claws are in the tent? He's unconcious, almost dead, still beats them, and based on sheer power, Icarium is more powerful than Dassem.

[Lisheo]

I suspect Icarium's chaotic/shadow infection thingy doesn't need him to be awake to unleash some kickass from a keg, so I have to hand the power thing to Iccy. Also, in RotCG's prologue, Osric kills an Azath.
WITH HELP FROM OTHERS.
Iccy kills it on his own. True, the damage to him is higher, but I would reckon that would put him on par with Rake, if not higher, for sheer destructive ability.
Iccy versus the Segulah ftw.

[Grief]

Well, osric may have just been being cautious, I suspect.
I mean, Icarium actually had a reason to try destroy it, whereas Osric was just experimenting.
Also, icarium, I believe, did not completely destroy the azath.

[Aptorian]

Lisheo, on Feb 15 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

I believe Bauch is right. It's buried with him or some such.
Also, said unnamed challenger was a nearly full-blooded Tarthenal, so were getting back into the Karsa debate. And Brys didn't kill Rhulad. He operated on him. It's reasonably easy to kill a guy who knows he'll be back and thus has no real fear of death, really now. It's harder to be so exact with a longsword that you sever tendons without cutting arteries. I mean, seriously, ever swung a longsword at someone? Killing, I suspect, wouldn't be that difficult, compared to using a long heavy bar of iron to cut perhaps less than an inch of space at a precise depth, while the guy is trying to kill you.

Brys operating on Rhulad isn't a great argument for his skill as a swordsman, it's more of a cool party trick when you're back in the barracks or something. Rhulad was already down and no longer able to defend himself when Brys went to work. If Brys was facing an opponent with sufficient skill, precision handling of a sword like that wont help him.

[blackzoid]

muco, on Feb 15 2009, 01:52 AM, said:

blackzoid, on Feb 14 2009, 08:50 PM, said:

I leave it to you sir, to counterpoint with facts showing that Karsa has won any sword fight with a top swordsman using skill only. I'm quite confident that there are no examples from the books that you can draw on.

Thats fair...

Well, the only argument to make my point I have is, Karsa has fought single opponents, multiple opponents in the series with a sword. Please quote an instance from the book where his guard was breached. Even Seguleh 11th couldn't breach his defense, nor did Icarium. The scores of Edur he fought with a sword didn't even scratch him. How about Rhulad?

And I have already said as a pure swordsman, Dassem, Rake and 1st are above Karsa.

Instead of answering my question, you have once again changed the goalposts into now being about when Karsa's guard was breached. You don't respsond to my points but change what the argument is about.
I asked for fights against top swordsmen. You bring up breaching of his guard against Icarium and Edur of mediocre level. (I am including Rhulad in this as he relied on his unkillable factor, not his skill level)
Dassem has killed scores of medicore Edur, Mok/Tool killed scores of mediocre Pannions.
Don't think their guard was ever breached.

But very well:
As stated by another poster, Karsa relied on strength/reach of his arms, not sword skill to take out the Segulah. He stamped the ground, then picked her up.
So yes, technically, she didn't breach his guard. But he certainly wasn't relying on skill with a sword there.
For Icarium, he didn't breach Karsa's guard either. Karsa was able to knock him out. However, their swords only clashed ONCE. There was no repeated parries. Is that really classified as a sword fight? Since Karsa's sword was broken after the first clash of blades its a bit of an exaggeration to state that Icarium could not therefore breach Karsa's guard. We would have to leave that as a "don't know" At least with Trull we had repeated parries against Icarium. Not Karsa.

(Rhulad did actually breach Karsa's guard when his sword went through Karsa's leg, but that may hae been necessary for Karsa to journey to the Crippled God's island. So I won't mention that one)

No, Karsa is nowhere near the top level of Sword fighting skill.
And how about responding to my arguments eh? Now that I have responded to yours. And don't change the frame of debate again.
Silchas Ruin > Karsa . I did prove it logically after all.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 15 February 2009 - 02:25 PM

[Grief]

Pusts mule is the winner.
It can make tea.
It would thrash Karsa without a doubt.

[Lisheo]

Aptorian, on Feb 15 2009, 01:44 PM, said:

Lisheo, on Feb 15 2009, 12:08 PM, said:

I believe Bauch is right. It's buried with him or some such.
Also, said unnamed challenger was a nearly full-blooded Tarthenal, so were getting back into the Karsa debate. And Brys didn't kill Rhulad. He operated on him. It's reasonably easy to kill a guy who knows he'll be back and thus has no real fear of death, really now. It's harder to be so exact with a longsword that you sever tendons without cutting arteries. I mean, seriously, ever swung a longsword at someone? Killing, I suspect, wouldn't be that difficult, compared to using a long heavy bar of iron to cut perhaps less than an inch of space at a precise depth, while the guy is trying to kill you.

Brys operating on Rhulad isn't a great argument for his skill as a swordsman, it's more of a cool party trick when you're back in the barracks or something. Rhulad was already down and no longer able to defend himself when Brys went to work. If Brys was facing an opponent with sufficient skill, precision handling of a sword like that wont help him.

I hate this argument lol.
"Leadinf foot lifting high, stamping down on the emperor's wavering sword-blade- not a perfect contact, but sufficient to bat it momentarily away- as he drove his point into Rhulad's right kneecap. Slicing downward from the upper edge. Biting deep into the bone near the bottom edge. Twisting withdrawal, pulling the patella out through the cut.
A shriek, as Rhulad's leg shot out to the side.
The kneecap still speared on Brys's swordpoint, he darted in again as the emperor drove his own sword down and to the left in an effort to stay upright, and slashed lightly across the tendons of the Edur's right arm, just above the elbow." UK paperback, p 898.
He basically cut off Rhulad's kneecap, then, before Rhulad could fall over, operated on his arm. I consider that more than a party trick.

[Grief]

Icarium chopped an Imass to pieces before it hit the ground, its just about being fast.
Its impressive, but I doubt he'd get into a position to do it against a skilled swordsman.

[Aptorian]

Indeed, Brys had come inside Rhulads defense and it was merely a case of ending the fight at that point. It is indeed impressive that he got the knee and then the arm in one go, but the rest is just surgery on a man who can no longer fight back. It doesn't show fighting sword skill, just finesse.

[Lisheo]

True, the rest doesn't count, but I think that, for a mortal, was pretty class... And I reckon now he's back, he's gonna be even better. Death seems to have that effect in Wu.

[BeLeG]

Not just a surgery

A surgery with insane speed!
I mean come on,Fear is just as good as Trull is.Trull can hold Icarium and Silchas for a while!
The Edur in RG was sure that it took almost no effort from Brys's part to do what he did and that he could do it again anytime(if Brys was alive)

Anyway,I still feel that Brys will prove his worth