[Dancer+]

This is strictly off-topic but I wonder what would have happened if Traveller went into Dragnipur after he knew the Chaos had claimed Hood. His willpower could have shattered everything, the chaos, the bindings of the world. Potentially not true but I'm thinking about the possibilities. Do we have any suggestion of someone else with the same willpower?

I view Rake and Dassem differently. Rake is on another scale in terms of sheer overall power, which is why dearly beloved Rake can handle pretty much anything thrown at him, but Dassem is a sharp driven point that knows no equal in my view (but equally blown aside given the right treatment). I'm trying to think of an analogy with weapons but failing miserably.

[BeLeG]

I like the way you put it
I also see Dassem as a powerfull weapon,his obsession being his strength and his weakness at the same time.A weapon that Shadowthrone and Cotillion use since the forging of the Malazan Empire.They know how to treat Dassem.They know how to make him follow the path they want.
Well they play with fire but they are experts at it.I believe that they need him broken from now on.Maybe they want to "Reforge" their weapon?

[Andirak]

Dragnipur in its usual state is a burden, that cannot be denied.

Quote

...
He had never invited such a manifestation before.
...
No need yet to lean forward with each step. No need yet to reveal a single detail to betray the strength and the will demanded of him.

He unleashed its full power (probably), which could only mean more strain placed on him.

Quote

...
Opposite the dead god, Anomander Rake, face stretching in agony, sought to remain standing.
Whatever weight descended upon him at this moment was invisible to the mortal eye, unseen even by the thousand Great Ravens perched and leaning far forward on all sides, but its horrendous toll was undeniable.
The Son of Darkness, Dragnipur in one hand, bowed and bent like an old man.
...
Anomander Rake began to lean on it, every muscle straining as his legs slowly gave way - no, he could stand beneath this weight.

With Hood in the sword (and maybe his army as well, I am not sure about this), the strain proved almost unbearable. Draconus himself was not even sure he could manage this.

Speaking of strength of will...

Quote

...
Ah, but look closely. The core burns still, hot and pure, and it gathers unto itself, bound by indomitable will.

The way I interpret this, Rake had to draw largely on his last reserves to fight Dassem, and still the later did not manage to drive him back. Not a single step. Though in the end, I think Rake would have tired, and Dassem would have beaten him.

But imagine him wielding Dragnipur without Hood inside, without the strain. As far as I am aware, Dassem meets the requirements for wielding Vengeance/Grief, so we ca say there was [most likely] no strain imposed on him. If there was, I doubt it was on Dragnipur's level.

In a fair fight, Rake would edge out Dassem, my humble opinion anyway.

[Dancer+]

The interesting thing about all of this is Rake could not meet the requirements for Grief/Vengeance himself? I know he picked up Dragnipur but I believe he made comment that someone better than himself would finally master it and become unstoppable, he gave it to his brother in the mean time.

[Andirak]

How could he not, being the one who forged it in the first place? And if I remember well, he picked up Dragnipur because it was more suited to his nature, not that he could not fully wield Vengeance/Grief. This from Andarist, I believe. And I think it was more like a person with the right, singular will with V/G would be unstoppable. I will try to dig up the quote when I have time.

Edit:
Here:

Quote

...
The Power of Grief lies in the focused intent in its creation. The sword demands a singular will in its wielder. With such a will, it cannot be defeated.
HoC, pg 519.

Quote

Cutter: 'Who was its maker?'
Andarist: 'My brother.
...
Before he found one...more suited to his nature.'
HoC, pg 517

This

Quote

...
In his veins, nothing of the Son of Darkness's Draconian blood. And in his hands, a sword that its maker had judged insufficient, when compared to Dragnipur.
HoC, pg 525

is from Cutter, so I am not sure how much weight it should be given, but I believe it's accurate.

This post has been edited by Andirak: 11 December 2008 - 03:43 PM

[Solar]

The logical thing is to assume the strain is present at all times; since it was never outright stated that the strain of Dragnipur disappeared in battle, and since it is also said that Rake summoned all his will to meet Dassem again, then to assume the strain is gone for their fight is ignoring evidence to favour Dassem in the argument.

And Rake never made any comment about Grief. As Andirak has shown, he discarded Grief to take Dragnipur, for multiple reasons - when it is not so saturated with souls, it is undoubtedly the better sword than Grief, possessing the one hit kill. There is also the fact it holds the Gate of Darkness, so Rake likely felt obliged to take it. Remember, for all Dassem's will and the power that would have given Grief, he could not force Rake, weighed down by Dragnipur and wanting to lose, back a single step.

That certainly suggests that if they both had identical versions of Greif, Rake would kill Dassem.

[Grief]

Dassem has willpower, but actually, its not so massively singular. For example, he delays to do things along the way. I mean, QB gets Hoods attention etc, by summonging him.. Gods arent massively difficult to find. Just get a mage to take you to the realm. And willpower will only get you so far.
In fact, iirc, there is a quote of Hood saying he feels sorry for Dassem, and its for that reason he avoids confrontation. Im not sure Dassem could actually take Hood, in a sword fight, yes, obviously, but in a straight battle. I doubt his willpower is match for a god such as Hoods power. Insane people have willpower, often. Doesnt stop them dying.

Im really not sure where you get this "Dassems willpower would, alone, shatter Dragnipur, destroy chaos, all that shiz, save the universe". Nope. There are millions of beings in there. People with the willpower to hack away at the chains, for millenia on end. Also, willpower doesnt hurt chaos. It just stops it eating you. He has a strong will, particularly for a mortal, and is probably the best mortal swordsman, but willpower isnt enough. Not for some thing.

I think, with a sword, he would beat anything now living, but not Rake. Possibly not even Draconus.

Also, Dragnipur, is in many ways a burden. I guess he took it from Draconus, because he didnt want someone as incompassionate as Draconus to have it, or for it to fall into the wrong hands.

[Onos]

There have been some good points/discussions!

One point i want to elaborate on is the theory that it is hard to distill the magic properties away from a sword wielder. I do acknowledge this might be the case, but i am not aware of any/many references to that point. So i am certainly operating on the assumption that those on the list are fighting at their base abilities, minus our discussions on the magic abilities that have been mentioned. (Such as does Grief/Vengeance or Dragnipur provide any benefit or hindrance. Does Skinners armour change things etc...) The only exception i can think of is Karsa's pocket warren. But even that can be somewhat factored in as we have tried to do with the other magical items. So speculation can certainly be made, but until SE puts it in writing something to the effect of "And as Rake powered up his warren, his agility received a bonus of +2" i am going to leave that out of my assumptions.

Also on Icarium i agree he is hard to kill... but just cause someone might not be able to cut his head off, if someone in a fight slid a sword across his neck i would consider that person a better swordsman even if he wasnt able to pierce the skin. That said i will rank Icarium at his 'rage iccy' ability, even though that certainly has a magical component to it.

[Lisheo]

I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that while Rake beat Draconus, Dassem would be destroyed by Draconus in a fair fight. With Grief, it's a little difficuly to judge, because Rake used it to beat Drac the first time, but I doubt Dassem can use it to the full extent of its powers.

[Silencer]

Y'see, that's where it's awkward - we have to assume that Rake used Grief to defeat Draconus...but Draconus ended up in Dragnipur. Sure, we can assume that he defeated, picked up the dropped Dragnipur, and cut Draconus' head off. Or that he did a similar thing to what Dassem did to Rake.

Personally, I see Grief as less of a burden than Dragnipur, and that Rake took that sword out of honor - not out of greed for a "more powerful" sword. So Dragnipur is likely a disadvantage given the wieght, but the man can still draw it and swing it fast enough to kill two Hounds of Shadow from a standstill!

[Lisheo]

As this is in the DoD forum, I'd like to say that in any case, Dassem can't use the sword Grief properly. in RotCG, it's shown to afflict him with terrible nightmares of the things its previous owners did with it, and Ereko says that its not for human hands.

[Silencer]

I'm contemplating the fact that Mal told us Rake would win....

[Malaclypse]

There's so many different posts in this thread that I want to respond to individually, but let's remember we're talking about the best swordsmen.

God/Ascendant level: Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, Icarium, Traveller, Karsa, amimissinganybody - Rake threw the fight with Dassem, thus it's not possible to gauge Traveller's standing based on that fight aside from the fact that Karsa was dazzled by the contest so we can place Traveller in this realm. Somebody made some good, if mostly unsupported, points for Icarium but really, it's just as likely that Rake et al. have discerned that Icarium will be needed in the hard times to come and whatever havoc he wreaks in the meantime falls under the category of acceptable losses, not necessarily that they're afraid to face him. The very fact that he has little to no control over his strength is a powerful advantage. Someone has been talking about 'his magic wouldn't let him be killed' but that's not SE's style at all. If we can agree that Icarium, as presented, and Rake, as presented, had a knock-down drag-out fight, with at least a few minutes of prep time, that Rake would almost certainly win, we can begin to understand the situation. I asked SE directly about this hypothetical contest and he was distressingly noncommital, ie., Rake and Icarium are at the same level. I love Icarium to bits, the poor deluded sod, but I'd bet on Rake. I won't even list his feats - suffice it to say (for those ASoIaF fans out there) that he is the Barristan Selmy that never aged past his prime and has lived for at least a few hundred thousand years in terms of swordplay.

This idea, posed by Idunnowho, that it's more difficult to defend and thus Spinnock could have handled Kallor if Rake had given him different orders, is a stinking pile of bullshit. The only way this makes sense is if Rake decided that Kallor would be needed in the hard times to come and charged Spinnock to delay and not kill Kallor. Unlikely, imo. More likely is that Rake knew that Kallor was a superior swordsman and was merely giving good advice. We have Kallor's memories and his performance against Orfantal as indirect evidence.

More to follow.

[Malaclypse]

Lisheo, on Dec 11 2008, 06:58 PM, said:

I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that while Rake beat Draconus, Dassem would be destroyed by Draconus in a fair fight. With Grief, it's a little difficuly to judge, because Rake used it to beat Drac the first time, but I doubt Dassem can use it to the full extent of its powers.

How can you be sure that Draconus would beat Traveller in any kind of fight, let alone a fair one? We have never seen Draconus fight. The rest is just bollocks. Sorry mate, you have made a nonsensical post.

[Malaclypse]

Andirak, on Dec 11 2008, 02:32 PM, said:

How could he not, being the one who forged it in the first place? And if I remember well, he picked up Dragnipur because it was more suited to his nature, not that he could not fully wield Vengeance/Grief. This from Andarist, I believe. And I think it was more like a person with the right, singular will with V/G would be unstoppable. I will try to dig up the quote when I have time.

Edit:
Here:

Quote

...
The Power of Grief lies in the focused intent in its creation. The sword demands a singular will in its wielder. With such a will, it cannot be defeated.
HoC, pg 519.

Quote

Cutter: 'Who was its maker?'
Andarist: 'My brother.
...
Before he found one...more suited to his nature.'
HoC, pg 517

This

Quote

...
In his veins, nothing of the Son of Darkness's Draconian blood. And in his hands, a sword that its maker had judged insufficient, when compared to Dragnipur.
HoC, pg 525

is from Cutter, so I am not sure how much weight it should be given, but I believe it's accurate.

Oh for Christ's sake - Obviously, Anomander had become too cynical and world-weary to wield Grief/Vengeance to its full potential and so sought out a weapon more suited to his enlightened nature. He took on the duty of Dragnipur because it was a cause worthy of him. As some others have suggested, Rake broke Traveller with his strange act of suicide, leaving Traveller to be remade (or not) into the sort of weapon that will be needed in the end. Dassem is an ignorant and talented teenager next to Rake.

[Malaclypse]

Dancer, on Dec 11 2008, 02:18 PM, said:

The interesting thing about all of this is Rake could not meet the requirements for Grief/Vengeance himself? I know he picked up Dragnipur but I believe he made comment that someone better than himself would finally master it and become unstoppable, he gave it to his brother in the mean time.

This is utter shite. He never made any such comment and I challenge you to produce a page number if you continue to disagree.

[Malaclypse]

Andirak, on Dec 11 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Dragnipur in its usual state is a burden, that cannot be denied.

Quote

...
He had never invited such a manifestation before.
...
No need yet to lean forward with each step. No need yet to reveal a single detail to betray the strength and the will demanded of him.

He unleashed its full power (probably), which could only mean more strain placed on him.

Quote

...
Opposite the dead god, Anomander Rake, face stretching in agony, sought to remain standing.
Whatever weight descended upon him at this moment was invisible to the mortal eye, unseen even by the thousand Great Ravens perched and leaning far forward on all sides, but its horrendous toll was undeniable.
The Son of Darkness, Dragnipur in one hand, bowed and bent like an old man.
...
Anomander Rake began to lean on it, every muscle straining as his legs slowly gave way - no, he could stand beneath this weight.

With Hood in the sword (and maybe his army as well, I am not sure about this), the strain proved almost unbearable. Draconus himself was not even sure he could manage this.

Speaking of strength of will...

Quote

...
Ah, but look closely. The core burns still, hot and pure, and it gathers unto itself, bound by indomitable will.

The way I interpret this, Rake had to draw largely on his last reserves to fight Dassem, and still the later did not manage to drive him back. Not a single step. Though in the end, I think Rake would have tired, and Dassem would have beaten him.

But imagine him wielding Dragnipur without Hood inside, without the strain. As far as I am aware, Dassem meets the requirements for wielding Vengeance/Grief, so we ca say there was [most likely] no strain imposed on him. If there was, I doubt it was on Dragnipur's level.

In a fair fight, Rake would edge out Dassem, my humble opinion anyway.

You misunderstand. Rake intended to die. Honestly.

[Malaclypse]

BeLeG, on Dec 11 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

I like the way you put it
I also see Dassem as a powerfull weapon,his obsession being his strength and his weakness at the same time.A weapon that Shadowthrone and Cotillion use since the forging of the Malazan Empire.They know how to treat Dassem.They know how to make him follow the path they want.
Well they play with fire but they are experts at it.I believe that they need him broken from now on.Maybe they want to "Reforge" their weapon?

See, now this is actual thinking on the matter at hand. Rake judged his life as worth sacrificing in order to 1) save Kurald Galain, Mother Dark and by extension, the entire Andii race, 2) somehow fix Traveller, forge him into the sort of walking weapon that will be needed in the fight with the Crippled God (in consultation with Shadowthrone et al.) and 3) cement his coolness among his fans.

Dassem is a very powerful crossbow, perhaps even a scorpion - he overwhelms and punches through. Rake is a longbowman who is also a master swordsman- better range, faster rate of fire, better accuracy and when it comes dowm to brass tacks, he's not going to quit. He chose to lose to Dassem in a very precise way - he chose it. Dassem/Traveller was unravelled by Rake's courage, commitment and resolve. It dwarfed his (Traveller's, if you haven't been paying attention) petty grievance against Hood and has presumably caused him to re-evaluate his position. Perfect time for Shadowthrone to jump in and give the poor bastard a sense of direction. Mark my words. Dassem is a basketcase and Shadowthrone/Cotillion will sort him out in the end. Traveller will do something important and then die I think. As far as the best swordsman, ie. the original subject of this thread - I still say Rake overall and living, I'd vote for Silchas Ruin.

mid level Ascendants and common mortals to come at some undefined point in the future.

[Malaclypse]

No apologies for the multiple posts - I have time now and I'm going to use it. PLus, some of the opinions expressed in this thread just beg for my attention.

Quote

This is strictly off-topic but I wonder what would have happened if Traveller went into Dragnipur after he knew the Chaos had claimed Hood. His willpower could have shattered everything, the chaos, the bindings of the world. Potentially not true but I'm thinking about the possibilities. Do we have any suggestion of someone else with the same willpower?

I view Rake and Dassem differently. Rake is on another scale in terms of sheer overall power, which is why dearly beloved Rake can handle pretty much anything thrown at him, but Dassem is a sharp driven point that knows no equal in my view (but equally blown aside given the right treatment). I'm trying to think of an analogy with weapons but failing miserably.

Get a hold of yourself. As far as your analogy goes, Rake is a proper longbowman while your boy is a slow crossbow. 'His willpower could have shattered everything?' Perhaps in the universe next door, mate

[Malaclypse]

BeLeG, on Dec 11 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

the logical thing to assume is that Dragnipur is a constant burden,even in battle.When Endest thinks that Dragnipur would drive every other god and ascendant to their knees what else is there to assume?That Dragnipur's weight goes away when someone uses it in battle?Doesnt work for me as a logical assumption.Why does Rake feel the need to ease the burden if he is not affected?
Dragnipur is a constant burden,that's what I understood from TTH.It keeps Rake from unleashing his true power.That's why when he enters Dragnipur every single creature feels awe.They see Rake's true power.
Do you remember when Samar Dev actually felt that pressure going back to Rake before his fight with Dassem?


Ok about Rake :He chained at least 3 dragons.He didnt kill them.He was strong enough to keep them alive and chain them.He did beat Kilmandaros although she tried to sneak upon him.Same thing about another goddess,Apsal'ara.He did beat a score of Seguleh without a rest.He did beat Osserc at least once
He killed Pearl, a demon who could level Darujistan and the Galayn Lord who was probably even stronger

These feats are greater than Dassem's(at least in MbotF)

Clumsy but true.