[Lisheo]

Solar, on Dec 5 2008, 10:25 PM, said:

I always get confused about Andarist. He is either the eldest, or Anomander is. But yes, Silchas in the youngest of the three.

Anomander is. I know that for a fact, because in HoC, Andarist says that if Rake denied his Eleint blood, he'd look a hell of a lot older than Rist.

[Grief]

Having looked it up, I admit my mistake.

Rake is oldest, then Andarist, then Ruin.

Quotes forthcoming.

house of chains page 525, on bantam press, said:

Darist's expression was all the affirmation needed. Anomander Rake's younger brother.

midnight tides page 25, on bantam press, said:

Such as the Soletaken Tiste Andii, Silchas Ruin, third and last of Mother Dark's three children.

[Onos]

Solar, on Dec 5 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

I am convinced that Rake is the best swordsman revealed so far in the series.

The other major contenders would be Dassem and Icarium, but I think both can be ruled out pretty quickly. Icarium is quick, fast enough to totally startle Karsa, but Karsa was still able to react to the attack. Both Dassem and Rake were attacking too fast for Karsa to even see, which, IMO, puts them on a different level to Icarium.

Trull was able to keep up with Icarium too, if barely, and if anyone would know well Trull's capabilities, it is Fear Sengar - who did not know who would win in a fight between himself and Trull, but did know that Brys Bedict would win against him. Brys > Fear = Trull = Icarium, in terms of melee combat.

Anyway, Dassem and Rake then. Both were entirely equal throughout their battle, each under a certain handicap - Dassem would have lost the battle if he took a single injury (because Dragnipur seems to work that way), but the only injury sustained between the two was the blow that killed Rake. Rake's handicap was, IMO, far larger in a contest of such skill; Dragnipur was going crazy at the time of the battle, and only moments before he had been forced to the ground. Rake was able to keep up with Dassem even considering that strain. Remove that, and Rake would only have been faster.

And even considering that, he did throw the fight. In a proper fight without the limits Rake had and without him having to lose, he more than likely would have killed Dassem.

Good thoughts/arguments. I have slid Trull down and acknowledge Brys could be several spots higher, perhaps as high as 6th. (of 5th if Icarium is less than i think)

Icarium is hard to place. Some people think he is as high as #1. Others make arguments he is powerful but not quite the best. Need more info on him!

One sort of randam thought based on your comment. Do we know for sure that just a scratch of Dragnipur sends you in? Everyone i have read about has basically received a mortal blow from it.

[Solar]

The evidence for Dragnipur killing from a single blow is in GotM, where Anomander killed two Hounds of Shadow. One was near decapitated, but the other was merely cut; both died.

As for Icarium, he is definitely good. But what we do know is this: Trull held him at bay, difficult as it was. Trull was also overwhelmed by Silchas Ruin fairly quickly, so in terms of swordsmanship, Silchas is almost certainly better than Icarium. Then there is the Karsa incident. Since Karsa could see Icarium's movements but could not see those of Anomander or Dassem, I put both Anomander and Dassem above him. The main reason I suspect Anomander and Dassem are on totally different levels is not just due to Karsa; even Ascendents like the Hounds of Shadow couldn't see their movements. In most other cases, mortals are able to see the attacks in combat quite clearly.

My list for the top three would be something like:

1. Anomander
2. Dassem
3. Silchas

Also, now that I think about it, Fear also commented that he could match Brys for at least a while in combat, so you could probably expect the same of Trull. So really, both Brys and Icarium are likely better than Trull, but the sheer speed at which Silchas overwhelmed Trull puts him ahead of either.

This post has been edited by Solar: 06 December 2008 - 09:56 AM

[Sorry]

Where in the fights against Rake do the Hounds of Shadow show that they can't see Rake's attacks?
Though I do have to agree with you in your general list, very well explained/thought out.

[Solar]

Quote

To all who witnessed - the cultists, Samar Dev, Karsa Orlong, even unto the five Hounds of Shadow and the Great Ravens hunched on every ledge - that first clash of weapons was too fast to register.

From the battle between Anomander and Dassem.

[Paleman]

I think the best swordsman on a purely skill level would be Rell. Full stop! It's Rell. Dassem had the First sword behind him, Rell had no-one. Most others have ascendant attributes so Rell really has to be the best swordsman based on skill alone. Greymane a close second.

[Aptorian]

Rell is an unknown. We only saw him fight a giant monster with out killing it and holding a doorway.

Dassem, Brys, Trull, Skinner, etc. could have done the same. Allthough Skinner would probably just have punched out Ryllandaras

[Grief]

I wouldnt rate Rell highly.
Ryll is powerful, but in the way that Trake is. It wouldnt necessarily take much skill to fight him. Pretty sure most decent Imass would take him, sheerly on merit of being so hard to kill.
So yeah, not so high on Rell.

[the peacemaker]

in a sheer power raitng Iccy wuld be best, no doubt, he CANT be killed as far as we know (shot boncing of his hide ect) but this dos not mean he is the best at swordplay thats probably ehter first Seguleh rake or dassem (wont disscus just forget it) brys being good but not THAT good (he does not attac faster than the eye)

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind we have never seen Brys go all out. His goal with Rhulad was not to kill him, it was to incapacitate him. Brys could probably have killed Rhulad in the blink of an eye if he wanted to.

[Grief]

Umm, im pretty certain no one is "unkillable". Thick hide, whatever, thats not unkillable. We know Jaghut blood is hard to kill, from Raest, but no ones unkillable.
Also, I wouldnt say Iccy is massively powerful, compared to K'rul, etc.

[Silencer]

And Dragnipur is one-shot kill, don't forget. Or thereabouts. Plus, it can chain anything. Iccy would fall to Dragnipur like anybody else.

[Seerdomin]

I'm inclined to agree that Dassem Ultor is possibly the hardest, but personally I think Iron Bars and Brys Beddict should be higher. Furthermore, what about Redmask from Reapers Gale? He was undeniably an absolute badass, the whole cutting off of people's faces, was, for me the icing on the cake. I know he doesn't use a sword but a whip with knives on it and a fuck off axe...thats pretty damn hard to argue against.

This post has been edited by Seerdomin: 08 December 2008 - 12:11 AM

[Aptorian]

the peacemaker, on Dec 7 2008, 10:03 PM, said:

in a sheer power raitng Iccy wuld be best, no doubt, he CANT be killed as far as we know (shot boncing of his hide ect)

Are you referring to that city he destroyed in Bonehunters? The arrow bounced of a rock and graced his leg by accident. He's not invulnerable.

Seerdomin, on Dec 8 2008, 01:06 AM, said:

I know he doesn't use a sword but a whip with knives on it and a fuck off axe...thats pretty damn hard to argue against.

It's not hard to argue against it when he doesn't have a sword. Otherwise I could say that Fiddler is a pretty good swordsman even though he uses A CROSSBOW!

[hunterlj]

What about Spinnock? He held off Kallor in ToTH all night. And didnt it mention Kallor only one because of his immortality? Any list kallor is on spinnock should be too.

And what about Clip? Gruntle?

[Aptorian]

Spinnock shuld have an honorable mentioned just for the fact that he fought his way off Assail.

[the peacemaker]

bounced of a rock did it ?? REREAD upconin... but if ICCY is killable wy is he still alive then? NOBODY want to have armagon walking arond and building cloks...

[Grief]

Actually, some of them dont care.
Rake for example, mentions that he meets and talks with Icarium, at one point. If people like Rake, Brood etc, wanted him dead, they could get together and get him. So I reckon most of those with the power to get rid of him dont care. The only time they might get involved is if he got really angry, and they possibly wouldnt kill him. I get the impression a lot of the really strong entities feel sorry for Icarium. There certainly seems to be quite a bit of dislike for what the nameless ones did to him.

[Onos]

hunterlj, on Dec 8 2008, 03:25 AM, said:

What about Spinnock? He held off Kallor in ToTH all night. And didnt it mention Kallor only one because of his immortality? Any list kallor is on spinnock should be too.

And what about Clip? Gruntle?

What do others think of Spinnock? Where would he belong?

Clip, i have no idea what his ability is.

Gruntle is an interesting one... my reaction says he doesnt belong on the list, but open to arguments.

Redmask: He was awesome at killing average soldiers. Never did more than that, though he possible had potential to.