[Hinter]

Rel the ex seguleh, part of storo's crew in li heng.

[Onos]

The Tyrant Lizard, on Dec 2 2008, 01:01 PM, said:

I'm gonna go out on the limb and say I think Icarium is the best swordsman. I reckon he would fuck all the rest up one after the other if he was pissed off enough.

I reread the Icarium/Trull fight and the Trull/Silchas fight. Icarium seems very quick in that fight. I think i confused how Quick Ben pushed him back with magic with something that happened with his sword skill. And Silchas is clearly good, but Trull outfights him. I still view Silchas better than the Crimson guard though, otherwise i would drop him even more. Other than the one Icarium/Trull fight we have no direct evidence of Icariums skill, (so for now i dont have him as number 1) but i wouldnt be too surprised if he is even better than Dassem/Rake.

P.S In his next life Trull should invest in some non wooden spear hafts...

[Sorry]

Probably Brys (I mean, come on, for singular skill he owns)
or Daseem (ascended or not, he still owns... killed Rake and all)

[Grief]

Theres been quite a discussion about Rake vs. Dassem, and its pretty much agreed upon that Rake couldve won, but threw the fight.

[BeLeG]

Erm...Onos you got the Silchas/Trull fight wrong

Silchas stops Trull's attack and then starts counter-attacking.Trull himself knows he won't last for long but then Silchas stumbles on a spear and loses his balance

Everyone who saw the fight,including Fear Sengar, knew that Trull could not last against Silchas Ruin

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 03 December 2008 - 08:42 PM

[heboric]

when Iccy battle vs QB Trull so on he rips a T'lan imass to peaces so fast the fisrt part dont hit the grund beafore Iccy is finishd... his speed is Exstreme.

[Onos]

BeLeG, on Dec 3 2008, 02:41 PM, said:

Erm...Onos you got the Silchas/Trull fight wrong

Silchas stops Trull's attack and then starts counter-attacking.Trull himself knows he won't last for long but then Silchas stumbles on a spear and loses his balance

Everyone who saw the fight,including Fear Sengar, knew that Trull could not last against Silchas Ruin

Ok, updated for that. How far down does that drop Trull? His fight vs Icarium was heroic, but he also was purely on defensive.

[Trull's son]

Sorry to digress slightly here, but Trull must have ascended no? it would seem impossible for him to have stood down Icarium and Silchas if he had not.
Icarium would probably be the most unstoppable i would think. but his skill isnt as amazing as that of Trull or Bars in my opinion. So can we get an agreement on who deserves the #1 position? i would say Rake deserves that position, but thats just me....

[Dragnipurake]

regarding Brys, he loses his fingers because the sword lashes out as if 'it has its own will' and not from Rhulad's skill. as for the surgery on Rhulad, i suppose it can sound simple, but Fear's and Trull's reactions to that display are very striking. Trull is actually convinced the only way Brys can be killed is by poison (am sure he didn't consider mages).

Of course, Brys doesn't have the history or romance behind his story but i feel he is on par with Dassem/Seguleh 1st/Mok. Maybe we will be treated to a fight between Brys and Silchas/Skinner/other uberdude in DoD or CG!?

[James Hetfield]

Personally, I do not believe Trull ascended. He was the Soldier? of HHS we know, which probably granted him some extra skill or power, bet not enough to ascend.

Since joining this website I have seen fice or six of these exact same threads. Who is the best swordsman? The beauty of it is that one swordsman can fight well against one opponent but have no chance against another, even though his first opponent beat the second. Life is like that and I think Erikson realizes this.

For you Americans or any heathens who follow college football, here is an example. ------------------

Texas' football team beat Oklahoma

Oklahoma beat Texas Tech.

Texas lost to Texas Tech.

Logically Texas should not have lost to Texas Tech., but different strategies and abilities change predicted outcomes.


The only thing I know is that Rake is/was the best. We all know he could have killed Dassem, by sword or warren, but threw the fight to enter Dragnipur. That is not up for discussion, it is fact. He beat an Elder God, dozens of Segulah, and countless thousands of others(evidence in dragnipur). Who can come even close except maybe Icarium or the same Elder God who thought him an upstart? Segulah, no chance. Avowed, no way. Being alive for half a million years and defeating every person that has it in for you is insane! Rake obviously does not turn away from most fights and he likes to stick his nose into others' buiness.



One question for everyone. Why is Onos stronger now that he is mortal?? Did i miss a passage in RG or is this all speculation? Actually that is more than one-----------

[Aptorian]

It is speculated that undead beings, like the Kellhunters from MoI or the T'lan Imass, may be slower because their bodies are, in essence, still dead. Meaning their sinews and musclefiber doesn't work quite aswell as a mortal.

[Dancer+]

James Hetfield, on Dec 4 2008, 04:13 AM, said:

The only thing I know is that Rake is/was the best. We all know he could have killed Dassem, by sword or warren, but threw the fight to enter Dragnipur. That is not up for discussion, it is fact. He beat an Elder God, dozens of Segulah, and countless thousands of others(evidence in dragnipur). Who can come even close except maybe Icarium or the same Elder God who thought him an upstart? Segulah, no chance. Avowed, no way. Being alive for half a million years and defeating every person that has it in for you is insane! Rake obviously does not turn away from most fights and he likes to stick his nose into others' buiness.

If it would have taken a warren to beat Dassem then Rake is not the best swordsmen. I'm slightly in the minority who think Dassem is greater than Rake at swordplay. Icarium even alludes to the opinion that Dassem was perhaps more than his equal (we all know this is in terms of swordsmenship as Dassem has few other offensive skills).

Rake is almost certainly better than Dassem, and Icarium, overall. He's just too smart and all arounded to fail - as you point out his track record against Elder Gods and other unspeakables is unassailable (plus Erikson loves him in his own way.) None of this changes my opinion on swordplay, from what I've seen I choose to believe that Dassem and Icarium are no.1 and no.2 in no particular order.

[BeLeG]

Aptorian as far as K'ell Hunters are concerned it is not a speculation that in undead "mode" they are slower.Someone actually mentions it in MOI(maybe Kallor?Keruli??)


As for swordplay I can't see Icarium being better than Rake.I mean Karsa thinks he can take on Icarium but I doubt he would choose to mess with the Son of Darkness
(Oh and Imho Rake owns all in swordsmanship.)

[Lisheo]

BeLeG, on Dec 4 2008, 12:26 PM, said:

Aptorian as far as K'ell Hunters are concerned it is not a speculation that in undead "mode" they are slower.Someone actually mentions it in MOI(maybe Kallor?Keruli??)


As for swordplay I can't see Icarium being better than Rake.I mean Karsa thinks he can take on Icarium but I doubt he would choose to mess with the Son of Darkness
(Oh and Imho Rake owns all in swordsmanship.)

Icarium destroyed an Azath. Only Osric has done that before, and it left him severely weakened. And it seems he did it with help. Iccy did it alone.
Osric is the match of Rake in many ways.
Icarium>Osric=Rake.

And I believe it may have been one of the T'lan Imass that said the Hunters are slower. But they aren't quite the same thing as undead KCCM, T'lan aren't.

[Grief]

Common misconception, Icarium attacked the azath. He didnt manage to kill it.
Afaik, it was injured, not killed. Its uite possible this injury is what allows gothos the ease with which he can move around.

It also depends on the azath. An azath collecting power for millenia will be harder than one collecting power for a couple of days.

It is mentioned that Rake could destroy the azath in GotM, with relative ease.

We dont know that they havent been destroyed before.

It also depends on the means you destroy it with, I imagine. Attacking it with a sword, using magic, whatever, its probably easier some ways than others.

The Ke'll quote, was, iirc, Bauchelain/Korbal.

Rake is almost certainly > Icarium, as is Osric, Draconus, K'rul etc.

Pretty sure Gothos would own his son. Also, isnt it mentioned that Gothos helps stop Icarium, as he wants to stay in the azath, and Rake is also> Gothos, by the looks of things.

And for the record Rake also> Osric.

They are similar in many ways, but Osric is never mentioned as inning one of their fights.

[Dancer+]

Why is Rake above Gothos?
I have several theories to why he's not. Could you put together a case for why Rake is better than Gothos. Obviously this in a tricky situation/fight rather than in a match of swordsmanship.

[Aptorian]

BeLeG, on Dec 4 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

Aptorian as far as K'ell Hunters are concerned it is not a speculation that in undead "mode" they are slower.Someone actually mentions it in MOI(maybe Kallor?Keruli??)

Quotes or it didn't happen

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

Common misconception, Icarium attacked the azath. He didnt manage to kill it.
Afaik, it was injured, not killed. Its uite possible this injury is what allows gothos the ease with which he can move around.

Gothos is was never captured from what we know. Rather it would seem he's playing a very central role in the organization of the Azath network. This is not the working of a prisoner.

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

It also depends on the azath. An azath collecting power for millenia will be harder than one collecting power for a couple of days.

There's much truthiness in this. Also age would seem to play a part aswell. Young Azath weak, Old Azath weak.

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

It is mentioned that Rake could destroy the azath in GotM, with relative ease.

That was the Finnest Azath. It was just a baby, I don't think he would get away with it if it had been, for example, the dead house. Which even had it's own Jaghut Tyrant gurdian. Just like the Finnest house has now.

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

We dont know that they havent been destroyed before.

True, but it's not like it's something easily done. An Elder God was nearly killed in a combined assault on the RCG Azath. And Iccy really is in a league of his own if we are to believe his reputation as the Destroyer.

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

It also depends on the means you destroy it with, I imagine. Attacking it with a sword, using magic, whatever, its probably easier some ways than others.

The image of someone trying to kill an Azath with a sword is making me giggle *chop, chop, chop*

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

The Ke'll quote, was, iirc, Bauchelain/Korbal.

The part about undead being slow? I have to look this up me thinks.

Grief, on Dec 4 2008, 06:13 PM, said:

And for the record Rake also> Osric.

They are similar in many ways, but Osric is never mentioned as inning one of their fights.

Neither is Rake described winning all of those fights. They clash and clash again. Osserc is in my opinion even more awesome than Rake. It's a shame we haven't seen more of him.

[Grief]

Hmmm, i'm pretty sure Rake is mentioned as winning almost all of them. If not all, close to. I think Osric would be nice to see more of, but I think he's good, just in a different way to Rake.

Its hard to judge these things. Yes, neither of them is mentioned as winning all of them. Just aint eriksons way. So we just judge from others peoples duscussions on them etc. For example, a comment from Gothos to Mael at the beginning of Midnight times, about how Osric tried to get in Rakes way. Its not stated that Rake pwned him, and theres little detail, but it gives the impression Rake won.

Gothos was captured by the azath, kinda. Its just his choice to stay there. Iccy doesnt understand this, takes a hissy fit, and gets pwned. He doesnt kill the azath. Icarium, yes, he's good. But, I get hte impression hes been unleashed before, and something always stops him. Pretty sure beings like Rake, Osric, probably Brood, etc, could take him on.

Also, as far as I remember, Icariums Rage attack on the azath is mentioned as an assault. Chop chop chop. I reckon that'd be a kindaadvantage in a way. After all, im not sure an azath would be expecting to be attacked like that.

But yeah, I dont think Icarium>Rake. I think Rake>Icarium, although only just.

And Icarium doesnt destroy the azath. Also, we have no idea of how powerful said azath was.

Yes, the one Rake went for was young, but we also know it had grown remarkably rapidly, due to the raw power of the finnest.

[Lisheo]

Icarium does kill the Azath. I believe he killed the Azath that Phyrrlis now stands on, in fact.

And I got the impression that Rake evaded Osric. Not fought him. Rake said something ike "I can see him circling now"

Iccy says Dassem migh be skilled enough to kill him. Iccy has the mostu humility of all the characters. He is modest. More to the point he doesn't even know his own skill when unleashed. Oh, Dassem could probably kill normal, non-enraged Iccy, who is quite handy with the weapons, but against Hulk Iccy? Not an Errant's fart of a chance could he take him down, not with ease. Iccy carved through T'lan Imass. D'ivers. An Azath. Bear in mind the damn thing must have been trying to take him the whole time. His power isn't long-ranged.

[Aptorian]

I remember some confussion about those Azaths. I don't think the phyrliss Azath was the same as the one that Iccy wiped out and yet it doesn't sound like Tremolor is the same as the old one.

weird.