[Onos]

This thread is response to how powerful Kallor is with the sword. At first just wanted to throw it in that thread, but it is different as i am listed who i think are the best swordsmen. Note: I am ordering them as best i can. Some are nearly impossible to tell since they havent fought someone who has fought someone else. (Example: Mok and Onos have only really fought each other, no one else of relevance)

1. Rake* (Contention that Dragnipur is a one kill sword, countered by its 'weight', specially after Hood enters)
2. Dassem (How much is Grief helping him... still a champion either way, but now really want to know how Grief helps him)
3. Mok (For all i know he could be higher. We need more evidence on Mok, but i view him as one of the best of a race that seems entirely devoted to fighting prowess. Also he is only 3rd, but he is mentioned as perhaps being ready to challenge the first, so until we see the first or even the 2nd in a fight)
4. Onos (I would argue alive he could take Mok, but have no proof. Also Mok used two swords vs Onos' one, so that tells me a lot. 1 vs. 1 swords.... Isnt his title first sword? hundreds of thousands of years before all the other upstarts?)
5. Silchas (Clearly better than Iron Bars and thus probably ahead of Skinner. Solar used the Trull as a benchmark to rank Silchas ahead of Icarium in skill)
6. Icarium (Ok i now admit he is pretty fast. He could be even higher... I have dropped him back down due to Trull comparision)
7. Skinner (didnt seem THAT great, but that was against Dasseem. He beat Greymane it seems. Also his armour makes things tricky. He certainly could be a few spots lower)
8. Greymane (didnt use the sword...whatever that means. Doesnt Brood speak highly of Greymane?)
9. Brys (i know some people think he is the shit... but the only evidence we had was him beating a still shitty Rhulad. He struck me as good... but not there with the rest. People seem adamant that he is better than i have placed him. Feeling info on him is lacking though he could slide up to 7th)
10. Karsa (He seems to have incredible speed... but think that is more his pocket warren. Also he was awed by Rake/Dasseem, so that should be a hint at his true skill. I might need to revisit the Karsa/Rhulad fight)
11. Trull* (not a swordsman... ok below Silchas, but how far does he drop? Fairly good argument made he was below Brys)
12. Kallor (he isnt the greatest but against lesser foes he is good. Would he have looked better if he knew he was fighting Dasseem? I have reread the Spinnock fight. Seems like Kallor is the better here. Spinnock over performed)
13. Spinnock (Think Spinnock does belong below Kallor)
14. Rell* (He doesnt come with a lot of evidence fighting other good swordsmen... hard to place him exactly. I have gained more respect for his abilities of late... but still dont know if i can up him much without relevant proof)
15. Iron Bars (Good, but below Skinner, below Silchas, has trouble with the 1000 Seguleh)
16. Blues (could be better than Iron Bars)
17. Shimmer (could be better than Iron Bars or Blues)
18. Nenanda (No evidence fighting names characters, but due to request i have added him to list. As he starts kicking ass he can move up)
19. Whiskeyjack (ok have added him...)
20. Gruntle

*Dead (as far as we can tell)

Am i missing any notables? I think i am intentionally excluding WJ. Not sure where to add him, but i think he is near the bottom or even at the bottom of this list.

Thoughts? Complaints? (i am sure there will be many )

This post has been edited by Onos: 03 March 2009 - 06:34 PM

[Lisheo]

Immortal swordsmen like Rake and Onos shouldn't really be in the thread, nor should Kallor, as he is seemingly fine after a wound that Brys, say, would have found fatal.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I'm gonna go out on the limb and say I think Icarium is the best swordsman. I reckon he would fuck all the rest up one after the other if he was pissed off enough.

[Onos]

 Lisheo, on Dec 2 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

Immortal swordsmen like Rake and Onos shouldn't really be in the thread, nor should Kallor, as he is seemingly fine after a wound that Brys, say, would have found fatal.

This is the Malazan world... everyone is on some path towards ascendency. That is why i am trying to focus on skill not power. Living for ever is a power not a skill. Kallor cant be killed it seems, but he clearly doesnt have the skill of some of the others. Skinner has that crazy armour... should be be taken off the list? I dont think so, but we can infer that Dasseem would have killed him ealier had Skinner not had the armour. And just as Rake can live forever, you never hear about him getting swords through the chest or swords bouncing off his armour cause he doesnt have the skill to block them

[Aptorian]

Nefarias Bredd

[Grief]

Grizzin Farl Toasts Bredd...

Haha! See what I did there!

[Lisheo]

 Onos, on Dec 2 2008, 07:09 PM, said:

 Lisheo, on Dec 2 2008, 01:00 PM, said:

Immortal swordsmen like Rake and Onos shouldn't really be in the thread, nor should Kallor, as he is seemingly fine after a wound that Brys, say, would have found fatal.

This is the Malazan world... everyone is on some path towards ascendency. That is why i am trying to focus on skill not power. Living for ever is a power not a skill. Kallor cant be killed it seems, but he clearly doesnt have the skill of some of the others. Skinner has that crazy armour... should be be taken off the list? I dont think so, but we can infer that Dasseem would have killed him ealier had Skinner not had the armour. And just as Rake can live forever, you never hear about him getting swords through the chest or swords bouncing off his armour cause he doesnt have the skill to block them

Skinner didn't have that armour when he originally fought Dassem, though. But again, he's immortal because of the vow. He CAN take swords through the chest, as can Iron Bars.
Generally, the way I see the list-
Nefarias Bredd
The First
Mok
Brys
Dassem as a mortal without Hood's blessing, or the sword Grief.
Karsa
Greymane
The Andii who fought Kallor in TtH.
Whiskeyjack.

But really that's just down to opinions.

[heboric]

do not forget Fear Sengar. he atleast in the start better than eny of is brothers. and onos its not the number of swords that cunt its the hand on one (onos if i remember corectly have a 2h sword even tho he can prbably 1hded it if he wanted to)

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Grief, on Dec 2 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

Grizzin Farl Tostes Bredd...

Haha! See what I did there!

See what I did there?

lol fix'd

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 02 December 2008 - 09:27 PM

[Grief]

Grizzin Farl postes Bredd.



Haha, see what I did there again.
This is however, getting spammy, so I think it might be better to stop.

On the topic:

Rake
Draconus
Dassem

Is how I believe listy should start.
Rake and Draconus' fight lasted 3 days, and I feel that he is probably better than Dassem, though only just.
Also, perhaps Osric, who has fought Rake(thought lost) and ignores dassem, should be up there too.

[thesalus]

Coincidentally, a few of those names can be found on the Agatii.

1. The First
2. Soldier of High House Death (have we actually seen him use a sword?)
3. Mok [It's always nice to see Mok ranked amongst the best swordsmen (seeing as how that's my last name)]
7. Anomandaris Ipurake
11. Karsa Olong (would it be safe to put him here? we didn't really see his skill as a swordsman here, it was mostly a display of his prodigious strength...)
1-20: Oru?

Elsewhere in the Agatii:
Iron Bars (At best, he is #34 given that Leal was the lowest ranked amongst the 15.)

Quote

Rake and Draconus' fight lasted 3 days, and I feel that he is probably better than Dassem, though only just.

But this happened hundreds of thousands of years ago, so Rake might have undergone some improvement over that timespan. Of course, Rake might already have been wickedawesome given his age at the time... I also suspect that neither Rake nor Draconus would have been averse to employing unfettered, sky-gouging, earth-sundering, ear-splitting, bowel-loosening sorcery (and all their actinic, incandescent, mephitic trappings worthy of exhibition on potsherds) in their fight (re:Osserc's ravaging of the Azath). Though, given Draconus' status as an elder god, he might have the upper hand in that respect...

Aside from that, mightn't Blues be a better swordsman than Iron Bars?

This post has been edited by thesalus: 02 December 2008 - 10:06 PM

[Urizen]

 Grief, on Dec 2 2008, 10:44 PM, said:

Rake and Draconus' fight lasted 3 days, and I feel that he is probably better than Dassem, though only just.
Also, perhaps Osric, who has fought Rake(thought lost) and ignores dassem, should be up there too.

Can someone provide the qoute that says Rake and Draconus fought for 3 days? I have no recollection of how long they fought ever being mentioned. I remember that in MOI we learn that Rake and Draconus fought and that Lady Envy did not help either of them but that's it.

Regarding Osric ignoring Daseem and calling him an upstart in ROTCG; that does not necessary mean Osric is more powerful and would beat Daseem, it could just be ignorace of Daseem's skills. Draconus (in the prologue) after all calls Rake an upstart and we know how that ended..

[Onos]

 thesalus, on Dec 2 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

Aside from that, mightn't Blues be a better swordsman than Iron Bars?

I will have to dig out midnight tides to find the quote. It said Skinner was the best though no one could match Iron Bars on sheer will power. It might have also mentioned Blues as being better at that point.

Also, does anyone have evidence of Brys being super great? Yes he cut up a 3 death Rhulad... but he lost two fingers in the process... and Rhulad died dozens of times after that, and even then Rhulad might still not be in the top 10...

I will check the books on Fear evidence... though i am not convinced just yet. Same goes for Icarium fight scene.

[Lisheo]

 Onos, on Dec 2 2008, 10:57 PM, said:

 thesalus, on Dec 2 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

Aside from that, mightn't Blues be a better swordsman than Iron Bars?

I will have to dig out midnight tides to find the quote. It said Skinner was the best though no one could match Iron Bars on sheer will power. It might have also mentioned Blues as being better at that point.

Also, does anyone have evidence of Brys being super great? Yes he cut up a 3 death Rhulad... but he lost two fingers in the process... and Rhulad died dozens of times after that, and even then Rhulad might still not be in the top 10...

I will check the books on Fear evidence... though i am not convinced just yet. Same goes for Icarium fight scene.

He did more than cut him up. He cut him up so precisely that he avoided major blood vessels, and got his muscles. That is akin to fitting a football into your mouth. It looks cool, but unless you know what you're doing and are able to do it, you just don't try it lmao. What he did was incredibly impressive.

Also, we haven't really any evidence of Rhulad getting much better, regardless. Seven fights consecutively, with that Tarthenal, would have been enough to just demoralise and tire an opponent. In the end, he's going to win, simply because he can't lose.

[Onos]

"Enough to give anyone trouble. Shimmer, Blues, maybe even Skinner" - Iron Bars MT

I would infer from that that Skinner is tops, followed by Blues then Shimmer.

"It had been said, by Guardsmen who would know, that he (Iron Bars) was nearly a match for Skinner. And now Corlo believed it" Corlo MT

Not sure where to put Iron Bars now. I have no other evidence of Blues and Shimmer... so might still keep Iron Bars above them unless someone can contradict me.

About Brys, i just reread the fight. He cuts Rhulad behind the knew, which is an ok feat, but i would be surprised if any of the other fighters could not do that. Then he lost his two fingers as he parried with his hand since he couldnt avoid his thrust. I think most of the other people on the list still have their fingers. THEN Brys just spears Rhulads knee cap.. twists and pulls it out. I could do that... The rest was simply surgury. Anyone with medical knowledge could manage it once Rhulad was on the ground. Sorry, not enough to convince me Brys is great in the context of some of the others.

[Trull's son]

I am suprised that Rell isn't mentioned above! he may not be the best, but surely deserves an honorable mentioned. He is the closest thing to The First that we have seen to date. He holds back the man jackal, as dassem had once done. If anything, that feat alone, and that comparison, should rank Rell among the best. Above Brys, above even Kallor (we all saw how Dassem messed Kallor).
Another thing, i find it somewhat funny as to how people are ranking Karsa Orlong. Is it even possible!? He may not be #1 swordsman, but he is definitely up there with Urko on the melee scale!

[Onos]

 Trull's son, on Dec 2 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

I am suprised that Rell isn't mentioned above! he may not be the best, but surely deserves an honorable mentioned. He is the closest thing to The First that we have seen to date. He holds back the man jackal, as dassem had once done. If anything, that feat alone, and that comparison, should rank Rell among the best. Above Brys, above even Kallor (we all saw how Dassem messed Kallor).
Another thing, i find it somewhat funny as to how people are ranking Karsa Orlong. Is it even possible!? He may not be #1 swordsman, but he is definitely up there with Urko on the melee scale!

I thought about Rell... but he couldnt have been ranked very highly among the Seguleh. Though i suppose he could have improved over time, though how he could do that without the help of other Seguleh seems surprising to me. My understanding was he was only an initiate when he was kicked out. That said he probably would rank above Iron Bars, and probably Kallor. Problem with Rell is he hasnt fough another swordsman of note to compare him to. How could we say how good he is? Fighting Ryllandaris is impressive but there he has the speed to match the monster. Something most of the list likely has as well.

Karsa has fought many monsters/beasts and won. His power and strength is well suited to that. He did beat Rhulad which deserves note. He has slaughtered average edur. He seems good surrounded by his pocket warren. Take that away? Also he acknowledges he isnt anywhere near Dassem and Rake which alone shows he is a clear step below them. And Urko is more a commander and a brawler. Limited to just sword skill not sure he ranks. (not saying Urko isnt a powerful character he just isnt a swordsman)

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I found Iron Bars seemed almost like two different characters. If I had to bet money on the representation shown in MT i'd bet quite a lot, and he'd be right up there with the best. The one in RotCG just doesnt seem as hard. (I know they're the same, this is, I suppose one of the problems writing about the same character with two different authors.)

[phart]

 Onos, on Dec 3 2008, 04:09 AM, said:

 Trull's son, on Dec 2 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

I am suprised that Rell isn't mentioned above! he may not be the best, but surely deserves an honorable mentioned. He is the closest thing to The First that we have seen to date. He holds back the man jackal, as dassem had once done. If anything, that feat alone, and that comparison, should rank Rell among the best. Above Brys, above even Kallor (we all saw how Dassem messed Kallor).
Another thing, i find it somewhat funny as to how people are ranking Karsa Orlong. Is it even possible!? He may not be #1 swordsman, but he is definitely up there with Urko on the melee scale!

I thought about Rell... but he couldnt have been ranked very highly among the Seguleh. Though i suppose he could have improved over time, though how he could do that without the help of other Seguleh seems surprising to me. My understanding was he was only an initiate when he was kicked out. That said he probably would rank above Iron Bars, and probably Kallor. Problem with Rell is he hasnt fough another swordsman of note to compare him to. How could we say how good he is? Fighting Ryllandaris is impressive but there he has the speed to match the monster. Something most of the list likely has as well.

Karsa has fought many monsters/beasts and won. His power and strength is well suited to that. He did beat Rhulad which deserves note. He has slaughtered average edur. He seems good surrounded by his pocket warren. Take that away? Also he acknowledges he isnt anywhere near Dassem and Rake which alone shows he is a clear step below them. And Urko is more a commander and a brawler. Limited to just sword skill not sure he ranks. (not saying Urko isnt a powerful character he just isnt a swordsman)

Rell was ranked very high and very young, he explains this when he talks about his banishment (self-imposed) as he argues a superiors judgement and is banned from fighting again. I got the impression though only an impression that he was a prodigy of sorts, as he was rasised extremely young to the Astari (he doesn't mention it by name but says highest order or other such words).

[T'renn]

Which Rell are you talking about

I only know a Mallick Rell, and he is no swordsman