[Toc]

Sure, there might be other characters who can do what Brys did, but of that we can only speculate. I'm saying Brys is the most skilled swordsman at the moment because we've seen (fair enough, read..) what he can do.

If you say the Seguleh can do what he did, well then, prove it.

I guess the bottom line is how you choose to view the word skill, and what you choose to base it on.


But for the sake of speculation, Dessimbelackis is the best swordsman!

[Grief]

Yeah, those deragoth sure are nifty with the swords

[blackzoid]

Toc, on Feb 12 2009, 08:44 PM, said:

Sure, there might be other characters who can do what Brys did, but of that we can only speculate. I'm saying Brys is the most skilled swordsman at the moment because we've seen (fair enough, read..) what he can do.

If you say the Seguleh can do what he did, well then, prove it.

I guess the bottom line is how you choose to view the word skill, and what you choose to base it on.


But for the sake of speculation, Dessimbelackis is the best swordsman!

Hey! What about my point?
Mok took apart a Kell hunter and balanced its head on his swords. His brothers took out its arms, but he did the rest.
For pure skill level, thats up there with Bry's deed.
IMO.

[Toc]

That is skillful indeed. I don't really remember that part clearly so I won't go into any heavy argumentation before I've re-read it, but I have to say a head is quite easier to hit than a tiny tendon.

[Grief]

Depends who you're fight i'd say.
I mean, rhulad isn't exactly an impressive swordsman, and I doubt Brys could do it against the better swordspeople of the series.
Problem is, we've really not seen anyone else who would need to do it.
I think Rake and Dassem could, the way their fighting is described, accurate, efficent, fast, etc.

I'm also pretty sure Rell says somehting about seguleh doing stuff like that, so I may dig out the quote, if I have time/can be bothered.

[Trull's son]

Are we not forgeting another truly skilled swordsman? you know, the one that gets a lot of attention? the one who inspires awe in Rake's offspring? I am of course speaking of the one, THE ONLY.....Nenanda!!! Nimander's possy seems to be always overlooked, well no more! Kedeviss, Nenanda, hell even Skintick all kick ass Avowed style. I will just assume that they were forgotten in the confusing haze that fell after the death of Anomander in TTH. The members of the Nimander Power Ranger Squad were the only ones left to fight with andarist. They fought against hundreds of edur (i am aware that andarist was there but still...) and they managed to live through that. They slaughtered Bastion, eventhough their opponents were poorly-armed kelyk infested zombies, it should still be a testament to the Nimander-possy's prowess. Nenanda and Kedeviss hold back hundreds, similar to the Avowed (and them brothers from assail and kyle) holding the bridge in RotCG. Keep in mind these characters are mortal.

[HoosierDaddy]

Felisin was a mighty fine swordswoman at the end of HOC.

1. Rake
2. Dassem
3. Brys
4. Skinner
5. Greymane

I don't think Mok is better than any of them.

[muco]

blackzoid, on Feb 12 2009, 12:41 PM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on Feb 12 2009, 08:42 AM, said:

muco, on Feb 12 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

Again with Karsa not good with sword thing!

I am yet to see someone breaching Karsa's defences with sword and that includes Icarium.

Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st definitly have better technique than Karsa but I wouldn't bet against Karsa even in a sword fight with these guys.

Karsa is incredbly fast, not just for someone his size, he is fast for someone from any size. Many instances where he surprised the best of people with speed.

Spoiler

Imagine the fight in ROTCG where Dassem impaled Kallor. What would you think Karsa would have done at that point? Run off or dismember Dassem and go on to strangle him?

Even a sword fight, you fight with the best tools you got. How would you define sword skill? Based on everyone is same size, same weight and with same sword, who would triumph? Not a practical assesment because the intangibles tend to weigh a lot in actual fight. And Karsa has more intangibles than say Dassem or Rake or even Seguleh 1st.

Pure sword skill, Dassem, Rake and Seguleh 1st higher but as a swordsman I wouldn't bet against Karsa in a fight with these three.

damn brother. i have secretly held this belief for the entirety of this series. i know that people are going to come out with their rational logical fact supported arguments but like karsa i pay the commonly held beliefs systems little heed and through the simple power of my will make them irrelevant

Ya, rational logical belief systems like jumping over a cliff is stupid can be made irrelevant by the power of your will.
I hear you!
Go Karsa! Even gravity submit's to your will. I mean the fact that Cotillion warned Karsa never to stand in Dassem's way means nothing right? Or the fact that Karsa himself said that only a madman could stand between Rake and Dassem.
Or the fact that apparently Dassem's will could reassamble a shattered moon means nothing too right?
Cos Karsa is DA BEST!

Err..isn't that what Karsa has being doing the whole series? Things you are not supposed to do, he does them. You may yet get your wish and Karsa might just defy gravity as well. j/k

Seriously though...where in my post did I say Karsa is the best? All I said was I wouldn't bet against him in a swordfight against anyone. Thats not saying Karsa is the best.

And please...so, Cotillion warns Karsa not to stand in Dassem's way and you conveniently missed mentioning what Karsa says to Cotillion after that. And Cotillion thinks Karsa can not coherantly put few words together to talk. Thats the depth of Cotillion's understanding f Karsa.

I would say judge Karsa by how people who know him treat him...for example lets say Dassem. Dassem at one point was scared of meeting Karsa yet strode on to meet him and if necessary fight him. Yeah..Dassem and Karsa understand each other not to stand in each others path. And what has Karsa shaken by fight between Dassem and Raken got to do with how he would fare against them? He was ready to take on all the Hounds of Shadow and few Hounds of Light by himself. And at the end until the second arrived, I didn't see him back down from the fight against HOL. What abt his interactions with Icarium? Just a thought...would Rake or Dassem be as careless when dealing with Icarium as Karsa was.

I am not saying Karsa is da best. I am just saying he is not as 'helpless' against the best . Isn't that what Karsa has been doing him whole life? His whole existance in Malazan world is to shatter the existing beliefs.

Just a final thought...even Dassem a veteran of many wars, does not give much chance to civilization when Karsa, with his army finally decides to get rid of civilization. Until TTH we did not have the some one like Dassem interact with Karsa to know his true potential. Dassem's interactions with Karsa does give us a picture of Karsa's true capabilities. Dassem treats him like an equal....go figure that.

[Silencer]

We did know, however, that the Teblor, before their fall, were a force to be reckoned with - they fought and treated with Forkrul Assail, Jaghut, T'lan Imass, etc. Of course humanity would have a hard show against an army of them. I mean, for a start, there are very few humans who have ever stood against the T'lan Imass (reference the use of them by Kellanved). Not to mention that, while Dassem obviously recognizes that Karsa is special, he also would have to be judging the rest of the army Karsa says he will lead by Karsa. Are all Teblor as he is?

I think, with Karsa, all he does is show that with enough determination, certain misconceptions about things are not true. For example, who would stand against the Deragoth? All Karsa sees is a challenge, really. Rake is not supported as the premier swordsman in the book, hence there is no reason Karsa would beat him - there is no misconception for him to thwart, unlike with Rhulad (unkillable), Deragoth (ancient Hounds, possible repositories of Dessimbelackis' soul, etc), and suchlike. Same with Icarium - others fear him from what they know, Karsa simply ignores this and does. Anomander Rake does not have some form of legend implying invincibility, so there is no reason for Karsa to have a special way/sudden ability to defeat him.

That being said, Karsa is special. He is a good swordsman. He is relatively unpredictable. And he breaks rules.

[Aptorian]

Silencer, on Feb 13 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

Anomander Rake does not have some form of legend implying invincibility, so there is no reason for Karsa to have a special way/sudden ability to defeat him.

Ahh, Rake is a legend. Anyone or anything that has ever heard of Rake, and I'm pretty sure almost any culture has him featured as some kind of black demon, would hesitate to even start something if they know Rake is involved. But of course, Karsa has mainly been active on 7C where Rake doesn't seem to have been for a while. but eben the Teblor should know him.

Anomander Rake is probably the most well known powerplayer out there. GotM doesn't count because Pale is silly.

[Silencer]

Yes and no. The Galayn Lord showed no hesitation, the Hounds showed little...who else have we seen Rake fight? Have we seen anyone go: "Oh Em Gee! 'Tis Rake! He is the best! We have no chance!"?

I mean, people hear Icarium's name, and it's all like: "Hoshit, we're screwed". People hear about the Deragoth, or the plan to release them, and it's like: "wtf do you thin you're doing!?!??!". I can't recall right now any quotes like that about Rake, other than the awe shown in GotM that he is there - and that's in regards to magic and is, as you say, Pale.

[Silencer]

To clarify: I wasn't saying that Rake isn't known, or isn't recognised as a power player, I'm saying that he doesn't seem to have the same legends of being undefeatable. Even the Seguleh, most people are shocked and/or fearful of them.

[Urizen]

Trull's son, on Feb 13 2009, 03:00 AM, said:

Are we not forgeting another truly skilled swordsman? you know, the one that gets a lot of attention? the one who inspires awe in Rake's offspring? I am of course speaking of the one, THE ONLY.....Nenanda!!! Nimander's possy seems to be always overlooked, well no more! Kedeviss, Nenanda, hell even Skintick all kick ass Avowed style. I will just assume that they were forgotten in the confusing haze that fell after the death of Anomander in TTH. The members of the Nimander Power Ranger Squad were the only ones left to fight with andarist. They fought against hundreds of edur (i am aware that andarist was there but still...) and they managed to live through that. They slaughtered Bastion, eventhough their opponents were poorly-armed kelyk infested zombies, it should still be a testament to the Nimander-possy's prowess. Nenanda and Kedeviss hold back hundreds, similar to the Avowed (and them brothers from assail and kyle) holding the bridge in RotCG. Keep in mind these characters are mortal.

Hear hear! I for one hopes we'll see more of the Nimander Power Ranger Squad.

[Tsundoku]

Silencer, on Feb 13 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

Yes and no. The Galayn Lord showed no hesitation, the Hounds showed little...who else have we seen Rake fight? Have we seen anyone go: "Oh Em Gee! 'Tis Rake! He is the best! We have no chance!"?

I mean, people hear Icarium's name, and it's all like: "Hoshit, we're screwed". People hear about the Deragoth, or the plan to release them, and it's like: "wtf do you thin you're doing!?!??!". I can't recall right now any quotes like that about Rake, other than the awe shown in GotM that he is there - and that's in regards to magic and is, as you say, Pale.

Not really a swordsman-type argument at this point, but do you recall what the demon Pearl says to the Malazan who released it (can't recall who) in GotM? Something along the lines of "You send me to my death", "Yes, I am sorry." Qualifies as "Oh ... shit," in my book.

Since the thread is about pure skill and nothing else, I'd have to go Dassem Ultor or Seguleh 1st, then guys like Brys, Blues and maybe Rake in there somewhere (Seguleh 7th based on a contest of pure skill, iirc). With what Mok could do as the 3rd, I think the 1st must be insanely scary.

Skinner doesn't rate as he is just a juggernaut, and while he may have been very good based on pure skill once, Blues rep as the preeminent swordsman of the Crimson Guard kinda tells the story.

Karsa probably relies on pure speed, strength and tenacity - the first 2 come from him being a living warren, the last part is pure Karsa, which makes me believe he may have the greatest strength of will in the books, along with Rake and Dassem. But I think his technique is probably good, but not top shelf.

It's kind of hard to judge skill in a story replete with heavy badassery. With characters that have helpful abilities gained from magic, as well as being insanely long-lived and/or nonhuman. Just think of who gets all the praise for their skill alone?

Cheers,

La Sombra, Seguleh 999,999. Black masks are in this season
Swordsman of Lurve

This post has been edited by Sombra: 13 February 2009 - 10:01 AM

[BeLeG]

Silencer, on Feb 13 2009, 09:27 AM, said:

Yes and no. The Galayn Lord showed no hesitation, the Hounds showed little...who else have we seen Rake fight? Have we seen anyone go: "Oh Em Gee! 'Tis Rake! He is the best! We have no chance!"?

I mean, people hear Icarium's name, and it's all like: "Hoshit, we're screwed". People hear about the Deragoth, or the plan to release them, and it's like: "wtf do you thin you're doing!?!??!". I can't recall right now any quotes like that about Rake, other than the awe shown in GotM that he is there - and that's in regards to magic and is, as you say, Pale.

One name for you: KALLOR

Remember the fear in Kallor's eyes.The man wouldnt hesitate to fight against two soletaken andii dragons but he was really scared of Rake

And I dont think that a Galayn Lord and the Hounds of Shadow are included in the " ordinary people" league.We have not seen a Galayn motherfucking Lord again,we dont know if he would hesitate against any opponent.Onrack released two Deragoth because of his ignorance,remember?
But I wont disagree with you.For a guy who has defeated 2-3 gods (Draconus,Kilmandaros,Osric,Apsalara) Rake doesnt get enough respect from his opponents.Well thats why they all end up in Dragnipur or in Azath houses

This post has been edited by BeLeG: 13 February 2009 - 10:15 AM

[Grief]

The Galayn Lord was stalling like shit against Rake.
Re-read the scene.
He's trying to cut deals, going all "we don't havee to fight" until Rake tells him to attend.

Seg first is pretty near Mok, K'rul says thats why the first sent him away.

Rake, reputation wise, well, most people won't fight him. People are afraid of the seguleh because they are seen as challenging on little reason. People are afraid of Icarium because they know about his anger.
Rake doesn't have a reputation for taking people on for no reason. He's fairly reasonable about stuff, as we see with Paran for example.

The other thing is, all the fights you mention are ones where the people Rake are fighting, he's fighting because they attack first.
We don't really see him set out to start fights that often.

Most people don't go "oh shit" with Rake, they just avoid him outright.

[Seguleh 1st]

Grief said:

Most people don't go "oh shit" with Rake, they just avoid him outright.

Because they know that he will not mess em up with no reason at all, only for being around, but will likely ignore them, which cannot be said about an icarium in his rage.

[Grief]

I know, I said that

[Onos]

Toc, on Feb 12 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

Sure, there might be other characters who can do what Brys did, but of that we can only speculate. I'm saying Brys is the most skilled swordsman at the moment because we've seen (fair enough, read..) what he can do.

If you say the Seguleh can do what he did, well then, prove it.

I guess the bottom line is how you choose to view the word skill, and what you choose to base it on.


But for the sake of speculation, Dessimbelackis is the best swordsman!

I have quotes of this earlier in the thread. What Brys did isnt that spectacular. At one point he spears Rhulads knee cap... come on... i could do that. Then most of the surgical stuff is done once Rhulad is down. Anyone who knows something of anatomy could do it. Based on what we know Brys wont be at the top of this list.

[blackzoid]

muco, on Feb 13 2009, 04:57 AM, said:

Err..isn't that what Karsa has being doing the whole series? Things you are not supposed to do, he does them. You may yet get your wish and Karsa might just defy gravity as well. j/k

Seriously though...where in my post did I say Karsa is the best? All I said was I wouldn't bet against him in a swordfight against anyone. Thats not saying Karsa is the best.

And please...so, Cotillion warns Karsa not to stand in Dassem's way and you conveniently missed mentioning what Karsa says to Cotillion after that. And Cotillion thinks Karsa can not coherantly put few words together to talk. Thats the depth of Cotillion's understanding f Karsa.

I would say judge Karsa by how people who know him treat him...for example lets say Dassem. Dassem at one point was scared of meeting Karsa yet strode on to meet him and if necessary fight him. Yeah..Dassem and Karsa understand each other not to stand in each others path. And what has Karsa shaken by fight between Dassem and Raken got to do with how he would fare against them? He was ready to take on all the Hounds of Shadow and few Hounds of Light by himself. And at the end until the second arrived, I didn't see him back down from the fight against HOL. What abt his interactions with Icarium? Just a thought...would Rake or Dassem be as careless when dealing with Icarium as Karsa was.

I am not saying Karsa is da best. I am just saying he is not as 'helpless' against the best . Isn't that what Karsa has been doing him whole life? His whole existance in Malazan world is to shatter the existing beliefs.

Just a final thought...even Dassem a veteran of many wars, does not give much chance to civilization when Karsa, with his army finally decides to get rid of civilization. Until TTH we did not have the some one like Dassem interact with Karsa to know his true potential. Dassem's interactions with Karsa does give us a picture of Karsa's true capabilities. Dassem treats him like an equal....go figure that.

I was replying to Sinisdar Toste's statement that logical fact supported arguments are ireelevant. Not prmarily to your statement.


"Seriously though...where in my post did I say Karsa is the best? All I said was I wouldn't bet against him in a swordfight against anyone. Thats not saying Karsa is the best."

eh? Ya, it does mean that you would consider him the best. What else could that mean?


"And please...so, Cotillion warns Karsa not to stand in Dassem's way and you conveniently missed mentioning what Karsa says to Cotillion after that. And Cotillion thinks Karsa can not coherantly put few words together to talk. Thats the depth of Cotillion's understanding f Karsa."

Ok, I concede that one. Cotillion was not an impartial judge in that area. He knew Dassem, but did not know Karsa.

"I would say judge Karsa by how people who know him treat him...for example lets say Dassem. Dassem at one point was scared of meeting Karsa yet strode on to meet him and if necessary fight him. Yeah..Dassem and Karsa understand each other not to stand in each others path. And what has Karsa shaken by fight between Dassem and Raken got to do with how he would fare against them? He was ready to take on all the Hounds of Shadow and few Hounds of Light by himself. And at the end until the second arrived, I didn't see him back down from the fight against HOL. What abt his interactions with Icarium? Just a thought...would Rake or Dassem be as careless when dealing with Icarium as Karsa was."

Sorry, this part is nonsensical.
Do the Hounds of Shadow and Light wield swords? What do they have to do with swordfighting?
Fact is, Karsa states that only a madman could stand between Dassem and Rake fighting. it was stated that NONE of the observers could follow every parry of the fight. How therefore can Karsa win against any of those two? Should we give Karsa a pass, because he is just Karsa? Thats a cop-out. Otherwise there is no point debating any argument with Karsa involved. Maybe there isn't.

As for Icarium, I have 2 responses.
1: Icarium was knocked unconscious by Karsa. An amazing achievement. But if you remember Deadhouse Gates, Icarium can enter "rage mode" even while unconscious. He began to Keen while being held by Mappo outside the Azath. So it's possible that Icarium would still have killed him.
2: Icarium stated in TBH, that there was a person at the Throne of Shadow (who could have beaten him). That was Dassem.


"I am not saying Karsa is da best. I am just saying he is not as 'helpless' against the best . Isn't that what Karsa has been doing him whole life? His whole existance in Malazan world is to shatter the existing beliefs."

Thats basically saying that Karsa is impervious to all previous limits of ability. A huge cop-out as far as I am concerned. What about Silcas Ruin who took apart at least 3 Toblakai in a matter of seconds? Do we just disregard that fact and say that Karsa will find a way? Even though it was the same race? And they were Toblakai gods who should have been at least as powerful as Karsa.


"Just a final thought...even Dassem a veteran of many wars, does not give much chance to civilization when Karsa, with his army finally decides to get rid of civilization. Until TTH we did not have the some one like Dassem interact with Karsa to know his true potential. Dassem's interactions with Karsa does give us a picture of Karsa's true capabilities. Dassem treats him like an equal....go figure that."

He talks to Karsa like a kindred soul. Thats great, but doesn't mean anything as far a fighting ability goes. Is Karsa goingto lead his army to fight Ascendents or just mortals? What about Malazan's and their cussers? What does he do then? Shout "WITNESS" and then is blown up by a cusser.


I am not denying that Karsa is not a good fight and his attitude is amazing but facts need to be taken into account when debating.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 February 2009 - 10:02 PM