[Toc]

Hello!

I've just found this forum and it makes me happy as few. I started to read Steven Erikson's epic serie this summer and I've just finished Reaper's Gale.

Now I am about to begin reading Return of the Crimson Guard, and as I understand it you need some deeper knowledge of the so called Old Guard of the Malazan Empire to fully appreciate it.

So, what I'm asking for here is something like a list of the Old Guard (since I had the impression they were pretty much wiped out?)

And also if some kind soul kind could sum up the fellahs (and ladies) Kellanved and Dancer "conquered" the island with.

[Lisheo]

Ok, we have:
Cartheron Crust and Urko Crust- Napan brothers who were Admirals of Kellanved's fleet. They faked their own deaths when Surly became Empress.
Surly- A Napan assassin, founder of the Claw in response to Dancer's talons.
Ameron- You'll find out in RotCG. A Napan.
Toc the Elder- Toc the Younger's father, sworn to Hood.
Dassem and his First Sword- Warriors of incredible skill. Dassem was sworn to Hood.
Whiskeyjack- A very talented general.
Duiker- A young soldier who Kellanved picked as a Historian.
Kellanved- a mage of Meanas. Dal Honese.
Dancer- A supremely skilled assassin, founder of the Talon.
Tayschrenn- A High Mage of Telas, and priest of D'rek.

Im sure Im missing people, but that's the ones I can remember.

[Grief]

Dujek also, as far as I remember, im sure there are others.

[Toc]

Thanks alot.

I guess I can add Admiral Nok myself, aswell.

[Aptorian]

There's also that woman from the Talons who died on Drift Avalii, Hurl or something, she was a mage and the wife of Nok or one of the Crusts I think.

I don't think WJ is part of the Old Guard. He's too young. I think his legend was made between the Night of Knives and the events of MoI, meaning during the last ten years.

Should Greymane be counted as Old Guard?

[Lisheo]

Ah, I knew I was forgetting NoK. But yes, Hurl was one. There was a large number of Napans who were part of the Old Guard and I don't think we've seen all of them.

[Mcflury]

Aptorian, on Nov 30 2008, 05:09 PM, said:

Should Greymane be counted as Old Guard?

Wasn't Greymane the dude that fought at Dassem's side, who was exquisitly good at taking blows and stuff

Spoiler

(and by doing so once saved Dassem's life)

? (spoilered it because I'm not sure whether NoK stuff is allowed in here). If so, the answer would be 'yes'. If not, then I have no idea who Greymane is

I wouldn't count WJ as a part of the old guard either, allthough he was a pretty important soldier shortly after Surly/Laseen started ruling, so WJ probably was already a soldier when NoK happened. But I don't think he was too important back then.

[Aptorian]

You're thinking of Temper/Master Sergent Temp.

I'm referring to the outlawed Malazan Fist Greymane. He led a campaign on Korelri but something went wrong, there were rumors his men making a mutiny and him commiting some kind of crime.

Spoiler

He was reported dead but shows up in RCG.

Grief edit: Reminder to everyone, this is the reapers gale forum, nothing after reapers gale here please.

[D'rek]

-Sure, you could count Greymane. If he was the leader of the Korel front then he must've been a fairly high rank shortly before then and distinguished.
-Considering Fiddler is considered by some (like Gesler) to be Old Guard, it seems likely WJ would be too, as it doesn't seem Fiddler ever ranked higher then WJ...
-Since the Old Guard is mostly just a collection of high-ranking military folks from the old days of the empire, in other words the folks whom everyone in the malazan army knows about, then my list would include:

Kellanved
Dancer
Surly
Cartheron Crust
Urko
Nok
Hawl
Ameron
Toc the Elder
Dassem Ultor
Dujek
Tayschrenn
Duiker
Nightchill (high mage with the Malazans since the unification wars)
Bellurdan (high mage with the Malazans since the unification wars)
Coltaine
A'Karonys (climbed ranks in the Falari campaign)
Greymane
Whiskeyjack
Tattersail (Mock's lover but didn't join the Malazans until much later)
Hairlock (joined the 2nd early in the 7C campaign, after the fall of Aren)
Fiddler
Gesler (attained at least the rank of Captain in the earlier years of the empire)
Stormy (Adjutant to Cartheron Crust)

Potential others:
Stumpy (a well-known High Mage)
Tesormalandis (another famous High Mage)
Amaron (a sub-commander of the 3rd Army during the 7C conquest, assuming this isn't a mis-spelling of Ameron)
Choss (a sub-commander of the 3rd Army during the 7C conquest)
Nedurian (mage cadre commander of the 2nd before Tattersail)
Ipshank (famed military healer)
Korbolo Dom (an expert tactician and replaced WJ's role in 7C when he was shipped out; at least until Korbolo was sent to Halaf by Laseen)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 01 December 2008 - 11:58 PM

[Grief]

Dujek is mentioned as old guard somewhere, iirc, and if he was, WJ surely was.

[D'rek]

Whoops, I missed him!

[Jude]

Still I think they're pretty clear in not mentioning WJ whenever they talk about the malazan founders. Dujek is always brought up but WJ isn't. I think he came around later, when Dujek still wasn't as a badass tactician as he is as of GotM, and being as awesome as he is when he joins the military, he works his way up really fast. He was one of Dassem's sub-commanders when Dujek wasn't even mentioned yet but thats probably because Dujek made his way up alot slower than Jack did.

[D'rek]

Jude, on Dec 1 2008, 04:00 PM, said:

Still I think they're pretty clear in not mentioning WJ whenever they talk about the malazan founders. Dujek is always brought up but WJ isn't. I think he came around later, when Dujek still wasn't as a badass tactician as he is as of GotM, and being as awesome as he is when he joins the military, he works his way up really fast. He was one of Dassem's sub-commanders when Dujek wasn't even mentioned yet but thats probably because Dujek made his way up alot slower than Jack did.

Ah but that is a very different thing. The founders of the Malazan Empire are Kellenvad's "family". As outlined by Admiral Nok in HoC, they are Kel, Dancer, Surly, Nok, Hawl, Dujek, Dassem, Urko, Cartheron, Ameron, Toc the Elder and Tayschrenn (I don't think I missed anyone...).

On the other hand, the 'Old Guard' is a reference to famous personalities that were well known throughout the Malazan Empire, especially the military, and whom had positions of significance in its structure.

(and I added Stumpy and Tesormalandis to the potentials in my list)

This post has been edited by D'rek: 01 December 2008 - 11:59 PM

[Trotts]

I think, on occaision, Kell's 'family' has been refered to as 'The Old Guard' leading to some of this confusion.

Slightly off topic, have we met anyone who was part of Dassem's 'First Sword'. Im trying to remember, and I think we did in HoC but Im not sure.

[D'rek]

Trotts, on Dec 1 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

I think, on occaision, Kell's 'family' has been refered to as 'The Old Guard' leading to some of this confusion.

Slightly off topic, have we met anyone who was part of Dassem's 'First Sword'. Im trying to remember, and I think we did in HoC but Im not sure.

We sure have! NoK features all of them, especially Temper. And then Temper cameos again in tBH. They're all named for the parts of a sword and they are: Temper, Ferrule, Edge, Hilt, Point and Quillion. That's not to say that it was always these six, the members could have varied over time. Those six were the Sword at the Battle of Y'Ghatan, as reminisced by Temper.

(NoK spoiler)

Spoiler

Temper is still alive being a guard at Mock's Hold in Malaz City and the guardian of the Deadhouse (though he took it voluntarily so the House lets him live outside the House). Ferrule may also still be alive.

[dktorode]

Aptorian, on Nov 30 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

There's also that woman from the Talons who died on Drift Avalii, Hurl or something, she was a mage and the wife of Nok or one of the Crusts I think.

I don't think WJ is part of the Old Guard. He's too young. I think his legend was made between the Night of Knives and the events of MoI, meaning during the last ten years.

Should Greymane be counted as Old Guard?

I doubt Greymane can be considered old guard.
Minor RotCG spoiler

Spoiler

He told Shimmer that he has never met Urko, he only heard of him and respects him enough to think he could lose in a fight against him... so i assume he is not old guard

This post has been edited by dktorode: 02 December 2008 - 07:29 AM

[Traveller]

D'rek, on Dec 2 2008, 04:46 AM, said:

Trotts, on Dec 1 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

I think, on occaision, Kell's 'family' has been refered to as 'The Old Guard' leading to some of this confusion.

Slightly off topic, have we met anyone who was part of Dassem's 'First Sword'. Im trying to remember, and I think we did in HoC but Im not sure.

We sure have! NoK features all of them, especially Temper. And then Temper cameos again in tBH. They're all named for the parts of a sword and they are: Temper, Ferrule, Edge, Hilt, Point and Quillion. That's not to say that it was always these six, the members could have varied over time. Those six were the Sword at the Battle of Y'Ghatan, as reminisced by Temper.

(NoK spoiler)

Spoiler

Temper is still alive being a guard at Mock's Hold in Malaz City and the guardian of the Deadhouse (though he took it voluntarily so the House lets him live outside the House). Ferrule may also still be alive.

RotCG spoiler/question regarding Ferrule -

Spoiler

Who is the other soldier who fights alongside Dassem and Temp? Wasn't that Ferrule?

[dktorode]

Traveller, on Dec 2 2008, 09:43 AM, said:

D'rek, on Dec 2 2008, 04:46 AM, said:

Trotts, on Dec 1 2008, 11:38 PM, said:

I think, on occaision, Kell's 'family' has been refered to as 'The Old Guard' leading to some of this confusion.

Slightly off topic, have we met anyone who was part of Dassem's 'First Sword'. Im trying to remember, and I think we did in HoC but Im not sure.

We sure have! NoK features all of them, especially Temper. And then Temper cameos again in tBH. They're all named for the parts of a sword and they are: Temper, Ferrule, Edge, Hilt, Point and Quillion. That's not to say that it was always these six, the members could have varied over time. Those six were the Sword at the Battle of Y'Ghatan, as reminisced by Temper.

(NoK spoiler)

Spoiler

Temper is still alive being a guard at Mock's Hold in Malaz City and the guardian of the Deadhouse (though he took it voluntarily so the House lets him live outside the House). Ferrule may also still be alive.

RotCG spoiler/question regarding Ferrule -

Spoiler

Who is the other soldier who fights alongside Dassem and Temp? Wasn't that Ferrule?

Spoiler

I think his name was Serrit or something...i stand under correction though... i know he was a seti and his new name he called himself was Bear

[Traveller]

That was it. I'm re-reading RotCg, but have only just started, I'm hoping to pick up a bit more this time. I thought that

Spoiler

the way he fought, and reacted to Temp, that they were being reunited after Ferrule left at the end of NoK's - ie it was him, but with a new name.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian, on Dec 1 2008, 03:09 AM, said:

Should Greymane be counted as Old Guard?

Made a thread about this...

I remember Nok said something about the Deadhouse providing them with special abilities. Interesting.

-AIJ, picturing Cartheron Crust with lazor beemz...