[Urizen]

Cougar, on Nov 13 2008, 11:58 PM, said:

If there's one thing Erikson enjoys it's confounding dumb versus debates, he's shown time and again that he won't play ball in the straightforward power-level comparisons. Quick Ben didn't toe to toe, with the sisters who were far more magically powerful than him, he used his brain. Whiskeyjack vs Kallor is an unsolvable debate because of the Spearbut and the Broken Leg. Daseem owns Kallor easily in RotCG, but was Kallor trying? We don't know. Erikson (and now Cam) positively revels in this; he's denied Icarium vs Karsa twice when it seemed they'd go at it. We are even denied a straight fight between Rake and Daseem. Loads of examples.

The Kallor/Daseem fight in ROTCG, I read that as Kallor being overconfident/ignorant of who he was fighting. If he'd known he was up against Daseem/Traveller I think he would have a) hightailed it out of there before the fight or fought more defensively, making the fight last longer(Same end result though).

[dreddiknight]

Due to a combinatin of his curse (to live on but never ascend), choosing his fights, and thousnds of years of skill Kallor cant be underestimated. That said, it was strongly implied that WJ would have beaten him, but for Hoods meddling. WJ could push Daseem although not beat him. Kallor sems to be an ascendant in all but name, and therefore can be ranked highly; WJ was just a badass human who stood up for Silverfox beacause of his loyalty to Tattersail, and had the skills and will to back it up. I'd put them on a par with each other, but below the Rakes, Daseem's and Brood's of the world. Still I wouldnt want to take on either of them!

[haroos]

draconus is just as capable as rake is.
fact is that they fought for 3 days, so I would assume they are close enough that it makes no difference.

[Aptorian]

I don't remember the three days reference. Where do you have it from?

Imagine that fight... sweet baby jesus.

[Lisheo]

I believe its in MoI, actually. I think K'rul says it to Envy. However, I'm too lazy to check it out. The gist that I got of that fight was that Rake with the full power of Grief couldn't beat Draconus, because his skill was boosted by his singular will, but neither could Draconus harm Rake. In the end Envy did something that threw the fight, I reckon. It's mentioned a few times how she betrayed Draconus.

[Grief]

End of MoI, Envy speaks to Rake, something along the lines of her father being unimpressed by her just standing at the sidelines doing nothing, so I dont think she did anything.
The way I read it was Envy organised the fight, so that there was no interference, and neither could escape etc, also Draconus wanted to kill Rake, see RotCG prologue.

I reckon Rake won it in a fair fight, or about as fair as possible, although it was obviously very close, taking 3 days.
Must be really close between them, because it took 3 days for either of them to take a hit from dragnipur, although either of them could have been hit with Grief I suppose.

[Lisheo]

I wonder if Draconus threw the fight in the same way Rake threw the fight with Dassem? Maybe he knew he couldn't win?

[Grief]

Hmm, possible, but from Draconus' thoughts about how he thought at the time, I doubt it.
Also, Rake has a reason to throw the fight, cant really see one for Draconus.
Its never really mentioned, or even thought of, that he did.
I reckon Rake won, fair and square, although must have been close as hell.

Still, it is possible it will be in the Rake trilogy, so we may get an explanation, or somesuch.

[Lisheo]

It would be an incredible last book, Rake against the Eleint Elder Lord of Night/Darkness!

[Grief]

The only problem I see with the books set in the past, is we know the outcome of many of the events, who survives etc.

Thatd be a problem with having that as a finale. We know who wins, so the fight wouldnt be great, but the twists etc leading up to it, would be good. Although knowing hiw it ends would be a disadvantage, since we'd know what it leads up to.

[Lisheo]

Knowing SE though, he'd portray the entire fight in a very different light to what we've seen, and would change our understanding of the series completely!
I really hope that if SE does the Andii, who seem quite linked to the Edur, Esslemont does at least one book for the Liosan.

[Dancer+]

I have faith in Erikson's ability to make a book in the past work. The problem is I'd rather have something set in the future and focusing on new characters. Despite this I'm interested in hearing about some of the elder Andii, although not too concerned about learning much about Rake's past except in the cases where it intercepts with Draconus, Osserc and other mysterious powers like Gothos. In this respect a book in the past has just as much potential as one in the future (at least it's a more reliable success than something set in future years.)

Lisheo is right, the battle, being vague, leaves a lot of room for huge surprises. The internal workings of the Liosan would also be potentially interesting, we know so little about said aloof race.

[Onos]

Does anyone have some speculation on why Kallor kills all his children?

a) They will become freaks/abominations?
b ) He doesnt like kids and doesnt want to take care of them?
c) He doesnt want any competition?
d) He doesnt want anyone to have a method to have any power over him?
e) other?

In the POV i reread last night i know he comes across warmer than before, but he still seems a bit of a monster. (not sharing his longevity with his women, and then killing the children) Dont want to imply i dont think he is interesting, cause some of his opinions are truer than some of the other characters, but even when he is being nice, he still doesnt seem that nice.

This post has been edited by Onos: 24 December 2008 - 04:52 PM

[Illuyankas]

Oh, man.

Now, Kallor is my favourite character in the series. If you think I'm biased towards him, well, I am. But, I do agree with most of the posters in this thread - he's not really amongst the massive powerhouses. In no particular order, Osserc, Dassem, Rake, Draconus, Brood. K'rul even, they'd all kick his ass. Brys, Karsa, and maybe even Rhulad would probably win too. Whiskeyjack would lose, though I'll be generous and say he'd have wounded him somewhat greviously first.

He's still the second baddest motherfucker in the land, though (we all know who the baddest is, we still love you Torvald baby). Why? Because we're listing him just below all these incredibly powerful entities, gods that can shatter mountains and tear through armies like paper, and he's only human. He ran an empire for a handful of decades in such a badass fashion that some of his oppressed followers decided to tear a god out of another universe to save them, and smashed a continent to kindling when they messed up. Yeah, he needed seven million sacrifices to make three curses for the Elder Gods (who only made one each) - oh wait, Elder Gods? The second oldest entities in existence? Personifications of the very elements themselves? Dealing with a mortal man in person?!?!

So yeah, this guy is sacrificing millions of people to dick around with powers that predated Light itself. At this point, he's probably younger than Tattersail was in GOTM. He then spends the next ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND YEARS taking immortality drugs and continuing his legacy of dickery til this day. This is a guy on magical anti-aging pills who goes around and stabs dragons in the face, to death. He's not an impossibly powerful mage with dozens of warrens, he's not a swordsman who can swing a blade that weighs as much as an army faster than you can see. He's not a god, or an ascendant. He's a man. He's a man mentioned in the same breath as people who could kill the world if they tried (or at least enough of it to count).

How is that not badass?

[Silencer]

I would contend that being able to survive a stab through the chest makes you slightly more than "only human".

Still, in general I agree with you on all points, Illy. And welcome back.

[drinksinbars]

ok after reading dod and rotcg i think i need to rethink just how badass old kallor is. the fact is that draconus had to engineer the breaking of dragnipur to break kallors curse. also his realm, used as the malazan empires warren is pretty much a battleground for everything nasty in the series (the nahruk and the OD resided there).

But most telling is the pov from the sagruk i think it was who spoke of the war against the tel aki where the che malle where decimated ina war against them in ages past. from rotcg we know that kallor and his empre pretty much annihalated that entire race, yet this race fought and defeated the vast armies of the che malle??

dude is a bad mutha

[MTS]

They're not necessarily comparable achievements, DiBs. The KCCM/Thel Akai battle was probably a long time before Kallor's empire. Definitely before the coming of humans, possibly even Imass. By Kallor's time, they were probably much diminished, or at least not nearly as much of a threat as they were.

[drinksinbars]

dont know mate - they marched with the jaghut as well, and they were in kallors own words in rotcg the only people who opposed his rule.

[MTS]

Go back to the numbers DiBs - IIRC, it was fifty Furies with roughly fifteen thousand Ve'Gath. That's three quarters of a million Che'Malle. There is no way Kallor's empire could have stopped that.

[drinksinbars]

why not? as far as i know three elder gods didnt combined forces against the che malle, yet all the current unrest with the crippled god and the curses against krul draconus and nightchill all resulted fromt hat one continent spanning empire he created. You wont change my mind mappo, kallor is a badass