Malazan Empire: Elves are proving a bit problematic... - Malazan Empire

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Elves are proving a bit problematic... How do you make them non-stereotypical?

#1 User is offline   Fifty 

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 04:44 PM

Right, first of all, let me just say that this whole thing is just an idea brewing in my brain right now, and whether it ever becomes a series of novels, short stories, mega-epic, role-playing world for a few friends or just an increasingly large pile of documents in My Documents and pieces of paper on my shelf, I'm doing it for my own sake as I enjoy the process of creation...

That aside, let me summarise for you where I am in this creative process, as I've once again reached that stage where I need to talk about things to move on with them and having left my old Neverwinter Nights Persistent World community I have no-one to chat to about it.

The thing I love most about the Malazan world is that it is different and vivid without feeling odd. For those of you who have read Perdido Street Station, the thing I love most about that is that it is different, vivid and very very odd. I tend to llike reading worlds where the elves and dwarves are absent but you have something else cool to be interested in. When constructing my own world, however, I find I want elves dwarves, etc in. I just can't come up with cool new races from scratch, and I am drawn to playing with old things and turning them upside down instead. I just like to mess up the conventions so you don't know what to expect.

My own world is based on a globe that I took off its stand filled in the holes where the North and South poles were. I relocated geographic North to be off the coast of West Africa. In my world;

  • Humans are the oldest race in the world. After several rise-and-falls of Human* civilisation they are back on top going through a period similar to the real-world renaissance due to the emergence and development of arcane magic for the first time in history. This is fuelling an age of unrivalled creativity and exploration. They have recently discovered a remnant Human empire reminiscent of China that has been all but wiped out by a newly emerged young race (Dwarves). The main Human nations got their religion from Gnomes.
  • Gnomes are the second most influential race in the world instead of a footnote, and though they were historically much like their DnD stereotype, they are now ultra-conservative religious nuts living in a strict theocracy. They still love their hammers, but use them now to put down religious heresy instead of building quirky inventions. Even in their own religious literature, they were created after Humans as Humans were deemed unsatisfactory by The Father and Gnomes were meant to be an improvement. They currently consider themselves out of favour with The Father though, because of creating Dwarves.
  • Dwarves are the youngest race in the world, created by the Gnomes and are the cause of the change in Gnomish society. Instead of the lawful types we know and love, they are warlike and chaotic, with elements of Viking, Celtic and even a little Mongol imagery thrown in. They are still very hard-working and love their beer and their axes, but are making their place in the world for the first time instead of fighting to regain past glories. And they have never delved a Moria-like mine in their history.
  • Orcs as a race have all but ceased to exist due to diseases caught from Human explorers, but due to some quirky genetic higgery-pokery that I made up but won't explain here, two Half-orcs can breed to produce Orcs (most of whom die young or are stillborn), more true Half-orcs or pure Humans. Half-orc society is in its absolute infancy and pure orcs that survive to adulthood are revered while Orc-descended humans are reviled. They inhabit the jungles and islands that make up the land portion of a Caribbean-esque setting in the world. Many of the Human children and some Half-Orcs land up as members of pirate crews.
  • Halflings have only just returned to my world after I decided at one stage they wouldn't be in it at all. They are pretty dull normally, after all. Kender are the closest thing to interesting halflings, and they are not that great either. I decided they'd make a pretty good race to put on a fantasy Easter/Pitcairn/Henderson Island and have them as a pathetic society of cannibals following the ecological collapse of their previously idyllic islands due to a combination of climate and mis-management of resources in their not-too-distant history.
  • Arcane Magic, new to the world at any meaningful power-level following its discovery/invention/development by Humans, seems like the answer to the the world's needs, but, like technology (specifically, hydrocarbons) in the real-world, is actually causing as many problems as it solves, slowly unravelling reality as it used more and more, and accelerating beyind the world's ability to heal itself...
  • Dragons are non-intelligent forces of nature, destructive and seemingly without purpose, but actually the world's response to the increase in the number of arcane magicians in the world and an attempt to prevent magic use destroying reality. If the world is a body then dragons are its macrophages...
  • Continuing the previous analogy, familiars are the antibody to the dragon's macrophage. Of course, magic users haven't realised that yet, and wonder why dragons keep trying to eat them...
  • Vanara are a race in DnD's oriental adventures, but also a cool story element in Chinese and Japanese mythology. I put them in to replace halflings as a less serious race than all the others I have included.
  • There is no Underdark. It is a rubbish cliche anyway.
  • The main Human nations and the Gnomes follow one monotheistic religion that has many branches, which has echoes of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but differences to all three. All different aspects of devotion to this deity seem to yield genuine divine magics, so it is questionable whether this magic points to the existence of any God at all, let alone one God of a set philosophy or belief structure.

That leaves me with Elves. Now, Elves are causing me problems. They are normally lovers of nature, and I am pretty certain that I instead want them living in floating cities similar to Erikson's Sky Keeps that the KCCM live in. I have also thought about them being Necromancers and maintaining undead servants, soldiers etc, but that seems a bit easy. "Oooh! Elves are baddies!" Besides, Elves have been made into baddies before. Drow Suck. What else are Elves? Aloof and superior. I thought about having the Elves in their Sky Keeps huddled around their crystal balls obsessed with the minutiae of Human life, treating it as a kind of Truman Show on a grand scale, and occasionally interfering like the Greek Gods of old. Making Elves into petty, jealous, squabbling twerps appealed to me on some levels, but left me feeling it does not quite work somehow. I considered the possibility that the only Elves left in the world are the ones who did not want to leave and rest all buggered off to wherever it is Elves go and that the Sky Keeps (somewhere between 10 and 50 of them) each have but one inhabitant, possibly commanding the undead forces mentioned above, and possibly indulging in the veyeurism also described to keep themselves from getting bored.

So, what is the essence of Elvenness? How can I twist and corrupt that, or over-exaggerate it without keeping them as the usual cliche, but without turning them into something totally unrecognisable? I mean, elves hammering away at forges would just seem stupid, but Elves living in tree cities is just boring. Any ideas or comments on what I have written about any of it, Elves or anything else, will be gratefully received.


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*For some reason, when writing about my world it feels right to capitalise races just like we capitalise nationalities like French or German in the world. I may break the habit, I may not. I also use the Tolkienesque convention of elves and dwarves, not elfs and dwarfs.

This post has been edited by Fifty: 04 November 2008 - 04:46 PM

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#2 User is offline   Lisheo 

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:48 PM

Elves as a race with a fixation with death :p Make them into a race that Andarist would be proud of, aloof, immortal, but completely obsessed with the idea of mortality and dying. Perhaps even trying to alter themselves in such a way as to gain that. Screw beauty and nature, its a cliche of the highest order.
I never bring in elves because of the fact they are usually pansys who love flowers and nice magic and are incredibly happy and all look like models.
I like the idea that through some catastrophe they have, however, become a little unstable.
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 05:52 PM

Man you have some really awesome ideas there.

Doing some world building myself I've made my own races but also used some of the classic races. In my world Elvers, or the Assandaris if I'm gonna make a quick danish/english translation, are gone. Some might still exist here and there, like the lonely Jaghut of the Malazan world. These elves were children of Mother Nature, an Elder God that was killed in the war that saw them fall. The elves are now reduced to spiritform (they're not allowed to live again by the gods), they can be incorporeal and posses living beings or take on a Golemform, they're elemental in nature, some are quite violent and like blood. Basically I've raised them to demigod status on the level of demons and other Æther-beings and let various "forest" people worship them. Ents, Satyrs, Centaurs, Sap-bloods, etc. sacrifice to them, etc.

It's a plotpoint that some foolish "industrial-area" imperial scientists try to summon the Assandaris power and use it against a tide of bad, bad things coming out of the core of the earth. Lets just say that reawakening the Assandaris is stupid on a level that makes the Beast-ritual a minor upset.
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#4 User is offline   Chance 

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 08:14 PM

Thing with elves are they live pretty much forever...

You either need a zen people or one obsessed with new things/experiences...or an unobtainable goal...

Else they would probably have suicided ages ago...to boredom...

So decide how they handle eternity, Erikson does his thing with Rake other authors do other versions...but the things is they need something to keep them occupied and unless they are very creative it wont be themselves...just giving them an image gets a bit hollow try to find their motivation instead. Long lives tend to fuel either understanding or cynicism, might be a start...

Had a great swedish roll playing game where probably every facet was explored some time ago and I must say the cynical, hedonistic and experience driven version always caught my eye...because they where not even evil (thought they had no qualms about enslaving, killing or even eat other people) such concepts where moot besides the next way to prove they where alive...of course in that world most of them comitted elaborate suicide far before their natural life ended and where the prime distributor of drugs and other exotic substanes....damn where are those old books they had some excellent fluff...

Well...thats my view one who rarely like his own elves and tries something else...

/Chance...

This post has been edited by Chance: 04 November 2008 - 08:24 PM

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#5 User is offline   Fifty 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:53 AM

Obsessed with mortality seems like something I could work with. Self-alteration woud tie in well with a theme already established by the gnomes and how they created dwarves, and points to a message of "better-off-left-alone". The hubris of believing they could improve themselves and make themselves functionally immortal could easily be what brought low their society and most of its individuals.

The idea of them having become incorporeal could work. The idea of them being voyeuristic could be more meaningful if the only way for them to experience things is vicariously through the lives of others. Perhaps if they had a limited ability to ride other people and "push" them to do things, but not actually fully control them... This could easily be linked to the idea above.

In line with the third post, these pushes could often be to make people act in hedonistic and/or irrational ways, just so the elf riding them can experience the sensations and emotions that come as the after effects of the decisions made by the person, with little regard for the wellbeing of the person being ridden or the consequences for the larger society or any "greater good". That would tie in with elves being petty and short-sighted instead of this wise, long term thinkers.

I think I am moving in a direction I like...

Cheers guys.

Any more?
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#6 User is offline   Fifty 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 07:59 AM

Hmmm... becoming fully incorporeal creates a few problems, now I think about it, though not necessarily insurmountable ones.

I think perhaps they are physically incredibly weak. Whatever they did to themselves has left them almost completely debilitated. They have developed their ability to separate flesh and spirit to travel as described above though. Probably in spirit they look youthful whlst their bodies ack home are decrepit. This physical weakness may be what has left them dependent on necromancy to fashion themselves servants. It is quite likely that the amount of physical effort involved in sexual union would be beyond them, let alone the physical rigours of pregnancy and labour. Thus, if they die, their race dies, making them even more obsesed with survival. Their own bodies are so weakened that they cannot enjoy life, so they do it by hopping into other bodies and enjoying the ride... I am thinking a little bit Being John Malkovich here.

What are elves? Eternally youthful and graceful, right? So I'll make them old and rickety. Wise? I'll make them petty. Serene? I'll make them spiteful. Maybe I am going too far :p

This post has been edited by Fifty: 05 November 2008 - 10:35 AM

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#7 User is offline   Fifty 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:25 AM

I also forgot to mention Rats. Although there is one main creation mythology in the world and plenty of other competing mythoogies, there is also a more (pseudo-)scientific evolutionary tree I have constructed. Intelligence in most of the known species is a single evolutionary development, and although there are differences, the initial surge towards intelligence was well established before the races diverged. Intelligence also evolved by an entirely separate mechanism in rats. Instead of growing bigger brains they developed the ability to form merged consciousnesses to create combined intellects. Yes, for those who have heard of them, Rat Kings. These have used their own variety of intelligence to develop rats into larger biped servants forms.

This post has been edited by Fifty: 05 November 2008 - 10:27 AM

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#8 User is offline   Osric 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:25 AM

To be honest, I dont see the point in creating races that have been made so many times before and changing them completely. Why not just make your own? Elves, Dwarfs, Gnomes, it's been done so many times, why call them that? i like your ideas though, they're very original, and you seem to be trying to make it all your own and not borrow other people's ideas so why use DnD races as a basis?

Steven Erikson made new races and that worked out a lot better. Granted there's still a lot of simularities, tiste races with elves, undeads, but it's all original, it feels original, even though he based it off DnD origionally.

Anyway, if you insist on having elves.. Writers always seem to give them a reason to stay living through immortality, because everyone knows what happens if you live 10.000 years - you get bored. So why not erm, not give them this. Make em extremely bored and pragmatic, just have them fuck around the world doing stuff just because theyre bored and they want something to do. Like, the elven nation is murdering the gnomes!!!1 Why!?!?! They're bored. Or whatever, make em live in a decadent city where everybody indulges themselves in entertainment and debauchery. You get the point Im sure, maybe it's a good idea if worked out in a way you like. :p
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#9 User is offline   Fifty 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:19 PM

View PostOsric, on Nov 5 2008, 11:25 AM, said:

To be honest, I dont see the point in creating races that have been made so many times before and changing them completely. Why not just make your own? Elves, Dwarfs, Gnomes, it's been done so many times, why call them that? i like your ideas though, they're very original, and you seem to be trying to make it all your own and not borrow other people's ideas so why use DnD races as a basis?


You're right in a way. Why re-use the normal races? I am not 100% sure myself, but it feels right to use the old ones and play with them instead of make my own from scratch. I am not sure if the appeal lies in the changing of old stereotypes, or saving myself the "effort" of making completely new races. It is possible that I could eventually just change the names of my races and present them as they have become without the baggage that comes along with the old names, but right now, the only names I have are the normal ones and I just can't hear any new names I make up as "correct". The old names may be part of the process, or may be part of the finished article, but right now they are the best I have.

Continuing thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, by the way.
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#10 User is offline   Wordmerchant 

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:21 PM

Instead of making them "immortal", since you want to place them in something like the skykeeps, make them some sort of techno-mages. This technology/magic keeps the skykeeps skykeeping, and presents the culture with some moral choices to make re: how much they use this power to effect changes in themselves. (think cloning/ genetic alteration with a technomage spin)
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Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:57 PM

I agree with some of the other guys here, just do not use elves, gnomes, dwarves, orcs etc...even knowing they are in a book will stop me from reading it. Period. They have been done to death, leave them well alone.

My own solution to this problem was to simply imagine way way way back in time in my world to the beginnings of complex life then fast forwards, exploring all the possibilites that evolution might throw up over the eons. Being a fantasy world you can intervene in a most godly fashion at any point to sprinkle some god-dust (ahem) to alter the natural course of things. Spend time developing these to their conclusions and see what you get. Thus, what if dinosaurs did not become extinct but some of them actually survived and evolved? How about four-legged mammals? More ape-like men? Neanderthals? Thus you get different species of humans, one perhaps enslaving others. Don't forget that many species evolved in isolation when continents broke apart so you can have related species (ie, more than one kind of reptilian race).

Just do something a little different, make the races benign, belligerent, arrogant, hell, humans might not even be the top predators!
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#12 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 12:09 AM

Usually elves are unemotional because of their long lives. Why not have them be super emotional and irrational. They could have sometime in the past have developed the technology to build these floating cities but eventually their emotional state deteriorated and they started killing one another. Rather then evolving they could be devolving in a manor of speaking. Now there are only a few of them left and they are using their remaining technology to spy on the humans and to learn how Humans have learned how to control their emotions enough to not exterminate their own race completely.

A little bit of a reversal of traditional roles.

However I think that in the long run you would be better served to decide what you want in your story and then to call it by another name. That would allow you more freedom to create. If you needed a race focused on death then make one up give them some kind of back ground and then call them something after you have created them. When people read elves they automatically picture LOTR or what not and it is next to impossible to get a way from that.

This post has been edited by Vengeance: 09 November 2008 - 12:11 AM

How many fucking people do I have to hammer in order to get that across.
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#13 User is offline   Use Of Weapons 

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 12:02 PM

What about making the Elves sun-worshippers? That would get you the 'wanting to live in sky castles' bit, in order to be closer to the sun; and you could go either way emotionally: make them hot, passionate, and fiery (q.v.), or unemotional, distant, disinterested (looking up instead of around). There could be an heretic sect of moon-worshippers if you wanted splinter groups. You could base the religion on Zoroastrianism (q.v.)
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#14 User is offline   Ain't_It_Just_ 

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 12:00 PM

In my experience, sun-worshippers can be nudists...

Make the elves bitter, cynical and coarse. Now THAT goes against the stereotype.
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Posted 15 January 2009 - 02:19 PM

Recommendation for you. Elves are nature lovers, and always portrayed as "One with the earth" so take it a step farther. Make them large with thick skin, similar to an oak, etc. using only earth type weapons such as clubs or staffs etc. Make them extremly muscular, yet swift and graceful. Vulnerable to fire and metal weapons. Just a thought.
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#16 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 09:40 PM

View PostBent, on Jan 15 2009, 03:19 PM, said:

Recommendation for you. Elves are nature lovers, and always portrayed as "One with the earth" so take it a step farther. Make them large with thick skin, similar to an oak, etc. using only earth type weapons such as clubs or staffs etc. Make them extremly muscular, yet swift and graceful. Vulnerable to fire and metal weapons. Just a thought.


Did you ever watch that sci-fi series Earth 2? The natives of the new earth colony were sort of like that. And they could travel through the earth.

I was sad when I heard the series got cancelled.
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#17 User is offline   Kalahinen 

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 11:00 PM

If you feel compelled to use "elves", maybe you could just go back to the roots and make them more a part of the spirit world and less human (Tolkien really humanized the "fairies" and made them the Elven people of today).

Personally, I'd just forget about elves and consentrate on something new...
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#18 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 11:05 PM

Well basically if you make any kind of creature and connect it with a forest, people are going to point and shout ELVES!!

Personally my approach has been to just kill of the Elves thousands of years earlier and have various nations of Dryads, Satyrs, Kentaurs, etc. living in the forests and worshipping the Elves in stead.
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#19 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 11:23 PM

Hmm, I've been thinking of a faction to make into benevolent super-recycling astronomy-obsessed necromancers for a piece of fiction I was toying with, and I might as well use elves for it.

"So, I have a race of elves-"
"Who love nature and live in trees?"
"No, they live in massive cities and don't work at all, working off the debt in death as zombie workers what they racked up in life as-"
"Oh, so they're evil?"
"No again, they only reanimate mindless beasts and sentient beings who signed the corpse donor form, no involuntary post-vitality conscription at all. They also rent out their undead to others as workers."
"Ah, do they have any particular tie to nature at all? Or one of those massive spirits as a leader?"
"Not particularly, and they're run by a council of undead dudes - liches is a good description - who are the immortal politicians that most of the less apathetic elves wish to join, working during their life to relax in death."
"Wait, so if more and more living people want to join this afterwards, how big is it?"
"Pretty big, but the membership changes regularly as members who finish their term take decades-long holidays, especially in the most popular vacation spot for the council."
"Where?"
"The telescope islands, which are IN SPACE ON VARIOUS ASTEROIDS IN THE ASTEROID RING - YOU DON'T NEED AIR TO BREATHE IF YOU'RE DEAD AND DOING UNDEAD ASTRONOMY"
"WHAT"
"UNDEAD ELVES IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE"
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#20 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 26 January 2009 - 11:30 PM

View PostIlluyankas, on Jan 27 2009, 12:23 AM, said:

Hmm, I've been thinking of a faction to make into benevolent super-recycling astronomy-obsessed necromancers for a piece of fiction I was toying with, and I might as well use elves for it.

"So, I have a race of elves-"
"Who love nature and live in trees?"
"No, they live in massive cities and don't work at all, working off the debt in death as zombie workers what they racked up in life as-"
"Oh, so they're evil?"
"No again, they only reanimate mindless beasts and sentient beings who signed the corpse donor form, no involuntary post-vitality conscription at all. They also rent out their undead to others as workers."
"Ah, do they have any particular tie to nature at all? Or one of those massive spirits as a leader?"
"Not particularly, and they're run by a council of undead dudes - liches is a good description - who are the immortal politicians that most of the less apathetic elves wish to join, working during their life to relax in death."
"Wait, so if more and more living people want to join this afterwards, how big is it?"
"Pretty big, but the membership changes regularly as members who finish their term take decades-long holidays, especially in the most popular vacation spot for the council."
"Where?"
"The telescope islands, which are IN SPACE ON VARIOUS ASTEROIDS IN THE ASTEROID RING - YOU DON'T NEED AIR TO BREATHE IF YOU'RE DEAD AND DOING UNDEAD ASTRONOMY"
"WHAT"
"UNDEAD ELVES IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE"


In before Tiste...

You should totally try to sell that to Sam Rami, it sounds like a mix of Evil Dead and The Seeker in space.
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