[Seguleh 1st]

i would not lay a bet on shadowthrone and the hounds against rake. i should think that ST has no chance as a magician to get rake, and we have seen how easy it was for rake to kill two hounds. he didnt break a sweat, so he could take up five of them fairly well.

[Andirak]

Well, maybe he was bluffing, but still he threatened to take on all of them, ST, Cot and the five HoS. Sounds pretty confident to me--or just plain crazy.
I don't suppose each was gonna wait patiently for his/its turn while Rake finished another, not unlike certain action movies where evil henchmen are prone to do just that...

Is it me or does 'terribly powerful' sounds strange?

Hooray! I'm a Sergeant!

This post has been edited by Andirak: 17 January 2009 - 09:15 PM

[Aptorian]

Rake is quick but he is not faster than five hounds doing a simultanious attack. Only one of them needs to reach him and give him a shake and he's a black and red ragdoll. And the dogs are just the distraction, while he's fending off their rush Cots comes in with the rope and knives and ST sends a bolt of power against him that would destroy a city and the fight ends. Rake torn to pieces, gutted or burned to nothing.

ST was a godlike mage who became a god with the power of an entire realm at his fingertips. He could most likely take Rake alone. You have to remember that ST isn't going to fight fair or with a sword. He would use magic, and he is a scary mage. It would come down to luck and skill as Rakes power would not top what ST could bring to the fight.

In the end Rake would probably trip on a spearbutt.

[Andirak]

Odd, I could have sworn seven hounds attacked him...
But yeah, it probably would be the spearbutt

[The Deragoth]

Andirak, on Jan 17 2009, 10:34 PM, said:

Odd, I could have sworn seven hounds attacked him...
But yeah, it probably would be the spearbutt

As far as I can remember they did. Basically Paran cowered for an instant while they all attacked Rake and then two were dead. Paran seems in awe of that fact, but then Rake indicates the 5 others ran away, not so much to imply that it made his job easier, but to explain why it was only two were dead.

I really don't want to get into a Rake is super awesome post, but even casting aside any discrepancies between Rake's power in the different books I don't see ST as his match. He indicates that ST with the Hounds might be able to match him, especially if Cots was around, but in no way does he express that he would be overmatched necessarily. It's not like they have Dragonball Z power meters. He was up against one, maybe two gods, and 5 far more ancient beings. Despite this, he appears willing to attack the entire realm of shadow and that is enough to get ST to back off. This doesn't prove anything admittedly, except perhaps that neither side was assured of victory. I doubt very much that came from a sold appraisal of the others power, but rather from more general concepts of power(ascendancy, godhood) and perhaps reputation.

In terms of pure magical prowess, we don't actually have much on Rake except for his indiscriminate blasting away at Pale. The fact is that while ST is a god, so too ultimately is Rake, as much as he would like to deny it, and he does have full access to Kurald Galain. Shadowthrone's realm is powerful, but as far as I can tell he doesn't quite understand it in it's entirety himself and the realm itself is really a derivative of a derivative of KG(Thought it best to stay away from pale shadow metaphors here ). How that impacts their magical prowess isn't necessarily clear, but I don't think ST has much on Rake in terms of being able to harness a warren's powers if it comes down to that.

[HoosierDaddy]

Quote

[A]s far as I can tell he doesn't quite understand it in it's entirety himself and the realm itself is really a derivative of a derivative of KG.

That would be incorrect as KE was just as viable a realm as KG.

Secondly, Rake is a proficient user of Galain, and a God of the Andii. However, only Mother Dark is the God of Kurald Galain... Shadowthrone is the only God of Meanas. Face to face, I'll take Rake. ST + Cots + Hounds = bye-bye Rake. One ascendent, even Rake, can't simply match the entire magical might of an entire realm arrayed against him.

[Andirak]

HoosierDaddy, on Jan 18 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

Quote

[A]s far as I can tell he doesn't quite understand it in it's entirety himself and the realm itself is really a derivative of a derivative of KG.

That would be incorrect as KE was just as viable a realm as KG.

Secondly, Rake is a proficient user of Galain, and a God of the Andii. However, only Mother Dark is the God of Kurald Galain... Shadowthrone is the only God of Meanas. Face to face, I'll take Rake. ST + Cots + Hounds = bye-bye Rake. One ascendent, even Rake, can't simply match the entire magical might of an entire realm arrayed against him.

Shadow is probably a child of KE. In a manner of speaking.

And for whatever reasons gods/Ascendants prefer to sort out their differences with their swords and fists. Not to mention that ST is not the confrontational type, which is why it's hard to assess his power, but I do think Rake could handle him (opinion), and perhaps even with Cotillion. If you throw in the Hounds, well Rake did admit that he would probably not walk away from that fight, although in his own words it would be messy. Frankly the idea of all of them teaming up on him is kinda crazy.

Edit: I do remember the quote, Paran saying 'You just killed two Hounds of Shadow', and Rake replying 'The others withdrew'. He sounded confident, and let's face it, he can swing Dragnipur at speeds even the HoS have trouble following...

The HoS are beginning to sound kinda of too hyped up. I mean, Apsalar Shadow-danced them into a shameful retreat...

This post has been edited by Andirak: 18 January 2009 - 07:17 AM

[Aptorian]

Andirak, on Jan 18 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

The HoS are beginning to sound kinda of too hyped up. I mean, Apsalar Shadow-danced them into a shameful retreat...

I think you would be surprised aswell if you came running at a toddler and it proceeded to kick you through a wall... then it brought out tine toothpicks and started slashing your friends with them!

[The Deragoth]

HoosierDaddy, on Jan 18 2009, 06:34 AM, said:

Quote

[A]s far as I can tell he doesn't quite understand it in it's entirety himself and the realm itself is really a derivative of a derivative of KG.

That would be incorrect as KE was just as viable a realm as KG.

Secondly, Rake is a proficient user of Galain, and a God of the Andii. However, only Mother Dark is the God of Kurald Galain... Shadowthrone is the only God of Meanas. Face to face, I'll take Rake. ST + Cots + Hounds = bye-bye Rake. One ascendent, even Rake, can't simply match the entire magical might of an entire realm arrayed against him.

What I mean is that if we are to believe the creation stories, KE is only possible because of KG and KL. On a very elemental level this makes sense obviously and in that sense it is a derivative of KG. The second level of derivation being that as far as I can remember Meanas is not exactly KE, more like a way to it, although that may be just be the nature of all human warrens. In terms of understanding I don't mean the ST cannot understand it, just that in several instances(which I can't really seem to recall) it does appear that ST and Cotillion still have questions about the realm itself and do not have direct control over all of its denizens(edgewalker?).

While you are correct that ST is the god of his realm where as Rake is not the god of his, I don't really know what that means for them exactly. How does a god utilize the power of a warren? Can he just focus it into a super beam or is it more abstract than that? In the case of shadow at least I would guess it's the latter. The fact that Rake has full access to a gate of KG in his veered form, it would seem likely that he has that same access in some form while in Tiste Andii mode. Other Andii can use KG without a gate which leads me to believe that a gate does provide considerable and perhaps total access to the warren.

[Aptorian]

This is my theory.

Any creature be it ascendant or mortal has a limit to what the flesh can channel before it breaks and in the end kills them.

The god of a warren is the warren, it doesn't have limitations.

[Seguleh 1st]

but still, i reckon rake a more powerful mage than ST, and he would not have to take the hounds in melee fighting. he could just undo them with magic from three miles distance, the same with cotillion, and then guard his own approach on ST and dragnipur him.

[Aptorian]

So you think that Cots and the hounds would just be standing there as the wave came crashing towards them? Or that ST wouldn't protect them? For that matter Cots can protect himself, people often forget this but it was him and not ST that ran the Shadowcult. He is a powerfull mage in his own right, not as powerfull as Tay and ST but still in the the don't fuck with them league.

[Seguleh 1st]

dont misunderstand me, i do not think them weak. i just think rake is even more powerful and he is playing in another league, being half a million years old and so on. and i do not imagine them standing still, but how do you avoid a wave of massive power crushing on you?

[Aptorian]

You do it quick ben style jumping warrens.

[Mcflury]

Aptorian, on Jan 18 2009, 03:29 PM, said:

So you think that Cots and the hounds would just be standing there as the wave came crashing towards them? Or that ST wouldn't protect them? For that matter Cots can protect himself, people often forget this but it was him and not ST that ran the Shadowcult. He is a powerfull mage in his own right, not as powerfull as Tay and ST but still in the the don't fuck with them league.

And let's not forget also that Cot used to 'dance' with Cowl (Major Crimson Guard assassin, Avowed obviously, see RotCG for more info)

On the evading a wave of massive power: you could also do it Beak-style (but then less suicidal... but that's rather impossible for humans, except QB who is a sissy with all his souls and thus can open multiple warrens at the same time without getting damaged in any way because of it)

On the strongest mage subject: I don't believe Kellanved was stronger than Rake. Sure, kellanved was stronger than Tay, and Tay did some huge damage to Moon's Spawn and stuff, but that doesn't mean Kellanved is stronger than Rake. ST however might just be stronger than Rake... it'll depend on how strong ST's ambush would be and how quickly Rake sees it through.

But in the league of non-gods I still believe Tay or Beak are the strongest mages.

[Seguleh 1st]

@ apt : a possibility of course, i did not think of that. but i have to argue against something that was said earlier on, dunno by who. it is said that ST has a complete warren behind him, cause he is its god. but in my opinion, he is a powerful mage, but has no full acess to the possibilities of his warren because is not being a god for a long time and is furthermore rivalled by the edur in his contol over shadow (or should i rather say was)- and to conclude, i don't think he is as of yet familiar enough with his warren to rival rake who has known darkness for who-knows-how-long.

This post has been edited by Seguleh 1st: 18 January 2009 - 03:31 PM

[Andirak]

At Pale Tay did manage to avoid a wave of power sent by Rake. It sent him to his knees, but apparently it can be done. Or can't you counter with your own wave of power?

The Warrens are Krul's blood, no? Or something like that. I am wondering, if a god is its warren, how that works out.

[Grief]

Cot St and the hounds versus Rake?

Kinda depends. Assasins generally don't seem to fare massively well in straight up fights, if my memory serves.

I mean, if rake could hold the hounds off with magic, he would probably be fine. After all, the hounds simultaneous attack in Gotm didnt end well, and it was a simultaneous attack, iirc, its just that rake only killed to and the rest backed off.

ST couldn't hold his own magic wise with Rake.

Cotillion is fast, but he would have to fight rake straight up with the hounds, and if rake had dragnipur, that'd be the end of him.

As for jumping warrens etc, then it just comes down to who is more skillful. Now, ST is good, as is Cotillion, but against Rake, top mage of his race, with millions of years experience? Not likely.
If we start considering ambushes etc, it gets ridiculous. You have to assume a straight up fight.

Otherwise, an inexperienced swordsman can beat anyone, cause if we're not assuming straight up fight, we'll assume their opponen steps on a spearbutt, or whatever..

Also, your theory, which is a far more interesting discussion than "Who'd win".

If K'rul is any indication, its not the best of times to be connected to a warren. So yes, it supplements your powers, but I doubt he has the whole power of the warren.

The andii cleanse KG when it is unveiled.
If the god of a warren has all its power, they can unveil it whenever.
Therefore, K'rul and other gods can unveil all warrens and the CG is no problem.

It's too powerful. We know gods can die. Otherwise the eleint with warren blood could destroy anyone, since they command it. Speaking of which, the shadow warren isn't even in STs blood. So why could he command it, like the eleint do. And even they have limitations, and cant use the whole power of it. For example, whole warrens are out there, to be accessed. But its the wielders power, the wielders capacity which determines how much they can use. Yes, gods probably have an increased capacity. But the capacity to command a whole warren at once. Nope. Such as my theory on racial warrens. Andii can use KG, because its in their blood. Omtose phellack, and the jaghut etc, its not just in the dragons/k'rul. Because as far as I know, most elder warrens were there anyhow, linked to races, and to the other elders. Why should K'rul be the elemental force of maels warren, when thats obivously mael...

[Mcflury]

Well, I sort of used the wrong word when I said 'ambush'. I basically meant that it depends on the conditions, but still a straight up fight. (eg Murillio fighting Gorlas. Murillio lost in that fair fight, but of course, his feet were hurting as hell. Still, it was a fair fight (okay, that's open to debate, but you get my grasp))

I do think ST has a decent chance when fighting Rake if they're fighting in the shadow realm. Also, don't forget how nasty Pust is when he starts unleashing his warren, constantly popping in and out of shadow, constantly attacking from another side. If Pust can do it, I'm pretty sure as hell ST can too. Of course, Rake is (or should we say was anyways?) a pretty awesome fighter/mage, so ST would still be sweating like shit, but I'm not sure if Rake could persist long enough against such a mighty attack.

As for the fighting style of assassins when in a straight up fight: they usually do pretty nicely. I mean, it'd be rather silly if the only thing they can do is backstabbing. Look at Kalam for instance: he's assassin, he does pretty good in a straightforward brall. Same counts for most of high-end Claw, Crokus and Apsalar. In my opinion, if an assassin can't stand himself in a straight up fight, he should buy himself a crossbow and become a sniper-assassin or something like that.

Ah well, The Rope vs Rake: Rake would probably win
ST vs Rake: will probably be close, but in the end Rake might just win
The Rope + ST vs Rake: Rake will have to retreat for sure...

[Lisheo]

Kalam wins in one-to-ones because he's a bear of a man.
ST versus Rake? Rake would possibly win?
Sir, I disagree. Rake was the Champion of Dark by birth and by power. He is also possessed of Eleint Blood, and the biggest, most dangerous sword anyone could have.
ST's strengths lie mainly in the area of subterfuge and other clandestine things. His warren is Meanas, and although he controls some Shadow as in the destructive kind, it's not his natural warren.
We've seen Kellanved get trounced once before, in NoK, when the dead scholar opens up a can of whupass on him while Kelly attempts to enter the Azath.
Interestingly, Cotillion didn't show much in the way of magical abilities before being alive, for example being undaunted by Otataral, but obviously he too has command over Shadow now.
The thing is, a shattered Warren probably doesn't have the power the Warren of Elder Night does, or the Warren of the Eleint. Cotillion might have stood a chance against Rake, he was ready to fight Icarium in tBH, after all, but Rake's Soletaken form, his archmagery, and his Dragnipur all give him a significant advantage.
Same goes to Ammanas in the situation of a mage battle.
But, most importantly is GotM, where Rake says they might be a match for him, with all the Hounds, and Cotillion around. might.
He's not the boasting kind, let's face it. So I reckon that he could beat them.