[Hoods_Balls]

SonOfDarkness, on Oct 24 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

I know I know, we have had alot of threads about top 10 magic dudes. But im reading some threads and I hear Osserc as described in NoK by Taysch as the most powerful? something about storm riders etc. Osserc could have stopped the storm riders....

Who is Ze Man/Woman when it comes to Magic?

If I were to pick someone to be with me when shit got ugly I would want Rake with me. For obvious reasons ( he is awesomeoooo)

Quick Ben would be a close second but I think 1on1 Rake could take Quick out.

Lets not get into a list of top 5 or 10 etc.

Just your number 1 pick for magic. its great that Brood is high Denul, but he wont help much in a fight, magic wise.

So whos your pick?

Brood is high Tennes, he also a very accomplished practitioner of Denul...but its not his main warren.

[Hoods_Balls]

muco, on Oct 24 2008, 11:18 PM, said:

Among mortals, I would say Taysch.

In GotM he took on Rake as well as few of his own High mages.

Rake spent that fight killing the demons that Tay released, not fighting Tay.

[Sheve]

Gothos!
He stopped the evolution of magic on an entire continent , and he stopped hood from claiming the dead souls there.
He is the servant of the Azath, it dosent seem like he is just a guardian but something more.
He most be the most powerful magic user in the series

This post has been edited by Sheve: 30 December 2008 - 09:22 PM

[Hoods_Balls]

Aptorian, on Oct 26 2008, 08:36 AM, said:

RRRAAAAAARRHHHGHH!!! BEST MAGE TOPIC MAKE APTORIAN AAAAANNNGGRRYYY!!!

Good lord how I hate these topics and peoples strange arguments for what ever magic whielder is more powerfull than the next.

First of you're discussing human mages, ascendants and elder gods in one giant mix, it doesn't work that way... not if you're sane anyway.

Human, unascended, mages and priests, draw upon a powersource, a warren or perhaps a god.

Now how the hell do you expect a mage to beat a god that is directly hooked in or perhaps even the wellspring of that very power the mortal uses? It doesn't work that way.

Quick Ben no matter his power, Tay, Beak, Heuk, what ever... is not going to out gun ST, Hood or any other god sitting on a whole realm of power at his disposal. That just doesn't compute.

Second of all, if you're going to compare the gods in powerlevel type match-up, think of this. Rake isn't known for destroying gods and monsters with forceblast or anything, gods like to settle things with their swords or fists Killy style... for some reason... that doesn't make much sense besides the fact that it looks really awesome when your read it.

In a versus match between magic wielding gods, I'm pretty certain that THE GOD OF MAGIC, K'rull, might have a slight advantage against the likes of Envy and Rake. It's just a guess.

What ever the other suspected Elementals like Mael and MD, etc are able to do with what ever they've got, no warren dependant god is going to attempt to duke it out with K'rull. That's just silly. I'm not saying K'rull would beat them, I'm not sure he can use his own magic that way, but it is his veins and flesh, so he could probably just cut them off. Then put them to sleep for a million years.

It doesnt work that way...a god cant just cut off a magic users power or say i get more than you, mages force there way into the warrens by power of will, and then use as much as they can handle...or more, its been touched on several times in the series that ascendency is based on strength of will, and we dont know yet if QB is ascending or not.
There are several mortals in the series that could very well go up against the ascendants/gods. Kallor is not an ascendant as he is cursed to never ascend. Baruk is easily powerful enough to hold his own with anyone.

[Urizen]

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 30 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

muco, on Oct 24 2008, 11:18 PM, said:

Among mortals, I would say Taysch.

In GotM he took on Rake as well as few of his own High mages.

Rake spent that fight killing the demons that Tay released, not fighting Tay.

Not to mention Tay didn't "fight" his own high mages. He waited until they were worn out from holding off Rake then he ambushed them. While Tay's powerful I don't think he should get credit for stabbing his compainions in the back..

[Grief]

Sheve, on Dec 30 2008, 09:21 PM, said:

Gothos!
He stopped the evolution of magic on an entire continent , and he stopped hood from claiming the dead souls there.
He is the servant of the Azath, it dosent seem like he is just a guardian but something more.
He most be the most powerful magic user in the series

Gothos is certainly up there.

I dont think his raw power was with freezing the evolution. Because the magic still changed. It still evolved as a warren. After all, since warrens are a whole different world of their own, "stopping it evolving" in once place of the world would change nothing. As a whole it still evolves. For example people coming in from the inside can access their warrens. Its almost as if he preserved a bit of the warren in that time, so it was still accessible. And isnt it mentioned somewhere that if you go far enough into a warren it becomes the hold anyhow? I forget.

He mentions that Mael could achieve a cleansing similar to his, using "flood or...flood".
As for stopping hood: Actually that just means you need to be more powerful than Hood, i'd imagine. From what we know, Hood isn't some magical supertank. Also, its hard to judge things without knowing all the information. Hood may have been in on it. After all, seemed like a fair few other Gods were.

Servant of the azath is certainly his most interesting point, although he says its by his choice, so he chooses to serve it. I reckon that the azath probably made him some sotr of deal. He wasn't sure he could take down the azath that he was in, the azath didnt want to risk fighting him, they cut a deal. He certainly seems to like doing things by guile, and is very intelligent, so im not sure the azath thing is about raw power, and his unique personaility probably made him a good choice for the azath.

Gothos is certainly one of the most powerful, up there with Rake, K'rul etc. But what I like about him is kinda the same as with QB. He achieves a lot of what he does with guile, by cutting clever deals, and manipulating the situation. He does hint kind of that the gods are more powerful than he is(beginning of one of the books I think. BH?) But he still tricks them cause half of them focus too much on being more powerful, and dont realize guile when they see it, cause they dont use it.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Grief, on Dec 31 2008, 10:28 AM, said:

Sheve, on Dec 30 2008, 09:21 PM, said:

Gothos!
He stopped the evolution of magic on an entire continent , and he stopped hood from claiming the dead souls there.
He is the servant of the Azath, it dosent seem like he is just a guardian but something more.
He most be the most powerful magic user in the series

Gothos is certainly up there.

I dont think his raw power was with freezing the evolution. Because the magic still changed. It still evolved as a warren. After all, since warrens are a whole different world of their own, "stopping it evolving" in once place of the world would change nothing. As a whole it still evolves. For example people coming in from the inside can access their warrens. Its almost as if he preserved a bit of the warren in that time, so it was still accessible. And isnt it mentioned somewhere that if you go far enough into a warren it becomes the hold anyhow? I forget.

He mentions that Mael could achieve a cleansing similar to his, using "flood or...flood".
As for stopping hood: Actually that just means you need to be more powerful than Hood, i'd imagine. From what we know, Hood isn't some magical supertank. Also, its hard to judge things without knowing all the information. Hood may have been in on it. After all, seemed like a fair few other Gods were.

Servant of the azath is certainly his most interesting point, although he says its by his choice, so he chooses to serve it. I reckon that the azath probably made him some sotr of deal. He wasn't sure he could take down the azath that he was in, the azath didnt want to risk fighting him, they cut a deal. He certainly seems to like doing things by guile, and is very intelligent, so im not sure the azath thing is about raw power, and his unique personaility probably made him a good choice for the azath.

Gothos is certainly one of the most powerful, up there with Rake, K'rul etc. But what I like about him is kinda the same as with QB. He achieves a lot of what he does with guile, by cutting clever deals, and manipulating the situation. He does hint kind of that the gods are more powerful than he is(beginning of one of the books I think. BH?) But he still tricks them cause half of them focus too much on being more powerful, and dont realize guile when they see it, cause they dont use it.

I hate Gothos. Smarmy prick.

If Iccy had sorcery, then he'd be even more dangerous...

[Aptorian]

Hoods_Balls, on Dec 30 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 26 2008, 08:36 AM, said:

RRRAAAAAARRHHHGHH!!! BEST MAGE TOPIC MAKE APTORIAN AAAAANNNGGRRYYY!!!

Good lord how I hate these topics and peoples strange arguments for what ever magic whielder is more powerfull than the next.

First of you're discussing human mages, ascendants and elder gods in one giant mix, it doesn't work that way... not if you're sane anyway.

Human, unascended, mages and priests, draw upon a powersource, a warren or perhaps a god.

Now how the hell do you expect a mage to beat a god that is directly hooked in or perhaps even the wellspring of that very power the mortal uses? It doesn't work that way.

Quick Ben no matter his power, Tay, Beak, Heuk, what ever... is not going to out gun ST, Hood or any other god sitting on a whole realm of power at his disposal. That just doesn't compute.

Second of all, if you're going to compare the gods in powerlevel type match-up, think of this. Rake isn't known for destroying gods and monsters with forceblast or anything, gods like to settle things with their swords or fists Killy style... for some reason... that doesn't make much sense besides the fact that it looks really awesome when your read it.

In a versus match between magic wielding gods, I'm pretty certain that THE GOD OF MAGIC, K'rull, might have a slight advantage against the likes of Envy and Rake. It's just a guess.

What ever the other suspected Elementals like Mael and MD, etc are able to do with what ever they've got, no warren dependant god is going to attempt to duke it out with K'rull. That's just silly. I'm not saying K'rull would beat them, I'm not sure he can use his own magic that way, but it is his veins and flesh, so he could probably just cut them off. Then put them to sleep for a million years.

It doesnt work that way...a god cant just cut off a magic users power or say i get more than you, mages force there way into the warrens by power of will, and then use as much as they can handle...or more, its been touched on several times in the series that ascendency is based on strength of will, and we dont know yet if QB is ascending or not.
There are several mortals in the series that could very well go up against the ascendants/gods. Kallor is not an ascendant as he is cursed to never ascend. Baruk is easily powerful enough to hold his own with anyone.

I am pretty certain that you do not openly use a warren in the presence of the Lord of that realm unless the god allows it. If GotM is anything to go by, gods and very powerfull beings can controll the flow of a warren and cut off a mage. Raest does this to Quick Ben when he closes his access one warren after another.

And K'rull most certainly can tamper with your power, that is what he's talking about in the conversation with Envy in MoI. He choses not to use his influence.

[L'oric]

Add to Tays list: helped Obo and Agayla hold off an attack that would have killed an Azath and freed the Jaghut within.- Of course the fisherman could have done it all by himself if the Empress had not decided to try to snuff out magic on Malaz Isle.

I really do not think Beak is on par with any of the great mages. Yes he could use all the warrens but he had very little experience and never had to stretch himself until the campaign for Lether. Given time and more experience I would have no problem with him in the upper eschelon of Mages. He's "dead" lets leave him that way.

Future Mages to look out for as far as power goes.

1.Silverfox. What more could you want from a "mortal" than the soul of Nightchill an elder goddess, and a high mage of Thyr. Imass and thus able to tap into elder warrens. So has holds(nightchill) elder warrens (Imass bonecaster), and mortal warrens (Thyr High Mage). Is there any outside of the gods that can claim all three?
2.Sinn: Already a high mage at a younger age than anyone else in the series, has many years ahead of her...barring death.
3.Bottle: Always sniffs out QB's schemes..that is in an of itself amazing. Has all sorts of elder sorcery within him and manages a few warrens as well. "Nephew" to Agayla.
4.Kiska: I am holding out for her as a mage. Why do the young never bother with exploiting potential. Of course the fact that she is not with Tay is disconcerting. Also a protege of Agayla who seems to take all the possible mages of Malaz isle under wing. Maybe thats he job to teach the Malaz mages so that the Fisherman can grow more powerful and keep the ice litteraly outside the bay.

[Aptorian]

The Fisherman is dead.

I don't think there's much promise in Kiska, she's not a natural. Agayala wanted her to learn magic but it's not exactly something that she has readily available.

[L'oric]

Aptorian, on Jan 6 2009, 10:12 AM, said:

The Fisherman is dead.

I don't think there's much promise in Kiska, she's not a natural. Agayala wanted her to learn magic but it's not exactly something that she has readily available.

Was that from RotCG Apt? Because I do not remember Agayla or Obo saying he was dead straight out. Just overcome or something similiar.

The thing on Kiska is also from RotCG? She has some resistances and Tay thinks she is worth teaching. Again I do not remember them saying she is not a natural. I really need to read RotCG, but I do not live in the UK or canada and I have not wanted to pny up the money.

[Hinter]

L'oric, on Jan 6 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

Was that from RotCG Apt? Because I do not remember Agayla or Obo saying he was dead straight out. Just overcome or something similiar.

From NoK, the Stormriders dropped a bloody great ship on his head, which had to smart!

[Aptorian]

All from NoK.

The Fisherman is doing a last ditch effort to save the island by rowing out to the approaching icecubes, singing his ritual. When you fail at your ritual leagues out to sea, in front of an approaching mountain of ice... I don't think you're comming back. The mages on the summit did not exactly give the impression that the coast guard managed to haul him back on land.

As for Kiska... maybe my memory is foggy but I'm sure Agayala or Kiska tell us that Kiska is not a talent and as such she would need to work hard to be able to use magic. It's been said that normal people can learn magic, but it stands to reason that they normally wouldn't even become close to the levels of someone born to it.

[L'oric]

Hinter, on Jan 6 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

L'oric, on Jan 6 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

Was that from RotCG Apt? Because I do not remember Agayla or Obo saying he was dead straight out. Just overcome or something similiar.

From NoK, the Stormriders dropped a bloody great ship on his head, which had to smart!

If thats all it took he would have been dead a long time ago I would think. Maybe they just didnt have ships last time they tried. In this series I am going to need more proof than a ship dropping on someone in order for me to say they are dead. <--Only Half joking. I mean he was in the ocean...not like he was crushed....drowned? Maybe he can't drown.

I know Beak is dead....he can come back but I know he is dead.
I do not know from the NoK that the Fisherman is dead...possibly..most likely..but not know. Maybe ICE is not done with the Malaz Elder Powers yet. He seemed to foreshadow a storyline with the stormriders at the end of NoK, and who else would be their tormentor/killer/jailer than the guy who is always stopping them from breaking free?

I should have known apt would reply before I left for work....ah I will reread NoK and see if I can get some dirt on her and not being a natural. As far as a mountain of ice and no coast guard to help...looks grim I got to say so, but a protaganists deus ex machina's work is never done.

This post has been edited by L'oric: 06 January 2009 - 05:43 PM

[Hinter]

I reckon his power was to calm the weather/drive back the ice. Then the Riders came up with a new, unexpected plan involving many tonnes of ship. There was also the scene of his wife frozen to death in his cottage. Not conclusive I know but the symbolism to me indicates that he now resides in Davy Jone's locker.

[Mcflury]

Hinter, on Jan 6 2009, 06:44 PM, said:

I reckon his power was to calm the weather/drive back the ice. Then the Riders came up with a new, unexpected plan involving many tonnes of ship. There was also the scene of his wife frozen to death in his cottage. Not conclusive I know but the symbolism to me indicates that he now resides in Davy Jone's locker.

Not to forget they actually described very beautifully how the glowing ember he carries with him on his ship was snuffed out by the water as the boat sunk... since the ember was symbol of his power, it meant that as soon as the Fisherman went under water his power was gone. I'm pretty sure some Stormrider pierced the fisherman with an icy spear down beneath the waves.

Also, Kiska is a Talent of sorts. Sure, she might not have found the patience to actually train her magic (though I believe in NoK there's a point where she does think to herself that she'll go back to her training, as Agayla wanted) but several times it's shown that strong spells/wards can just be broken by Kiska, where an average mage would fail. Also, Kiska is shown to have a Talent for.. Shyr? dunnow which warren again... warren of light iirc when she walks through it with that BB mage. (Kiska sees all those mirrors around her, reflecting her potential futures and stuff, and when she focusses on Agayla she can actually see where Agayla is at that given time, a thing the BB that was guiding her had to admit she couldn't even do)

I'm reading RotCG now and I must say, my opninions are changing. I still think that Beak is without doubt one of the most awesome mages this series has ever seen, but RotCG forces me to think Tayschrenn is actually a lot stronger, and smarter than QB too. I don't want to spoil anything, but it's hinted that he is an incredible force to reckon with, and the strongest and smartest of the Crimson Guard seem to be fooled by him, even scared.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

@Mcflury

The warren of light is Thyr.

I've been reading RotCG too and I agree, he must have some awesome power because so far everyone either rues or is grateful for his absence.

[L'oric]

Mcflury, on Jan 7 2009, 03:22 AM, said:

Hinter, on Jan 6 2009, 06:44 PM, said:

I reckon his power was to calm the weather/drive back the ice. Then the Riders came up with a new, unexpected plan involving many tonnes of ship. There was also the scene of his wife frozen to death in his cottage. Not conclusive I know but the symbolism to me indicates that he now resides in Davy Jone's locker.

Not to forget they actually described very beautifully how the glowing ember he carries with him on his ship was snuffed out by the water as the boat sunk... since the ember was symbol of his power, it meant that as soon as the Fisherman went under water his power was gone. I'm pretty sure some Stormrider pierced the fisherman with an icy spear down beneath the waves.

Also, Kiska is a Talent of sorts. Sure, she might not have found the patience to actually train her magic (though I believe in NoK there's a point where she does think to herself that she'll go back to her training, as Agayla wanted) but several times it's shown that strong spells/wards can just be broken by Kiska, where an average mage would fail. Also, Kiska is shown to have a Talent for.. Shyr? dunnow which warren again... warren of light iirc when she walks through it with that BB mage. (Kiska sees all those mirrors around her, reflecting her potential futures and stuff, and when she focusses on Agayla she can actually see where Agayla is at that given time, a thing the BB that was guiding her had to admit she couldn't even do)

Thanks for adding to my kiska has potential hope. Was that a cadre mage of the BB's or a squad mage? I was all set to pick up the book again and hunt for quotes when I realized I lent the book out to a friend.

Without the Fisherman wouldn't the Stormriders constantly attack Malaz unimpeded? All evidence points to a demise...but no body and no sentence that has and the Fisherman died in it. These are elder powers unknown in the current world. I am holding out hope because that might be all I can do. Maybe I can bribe Erickson or ICE to put him back into the books. It worked for WJ.

[Seguleh 1st]

dont you ever say again that beak is better than quick ben. i mean, ok, beak fought the powers of the crippled god chanelled through the edur, but i cannot imagine that the CG gave much of his power to them or even exhausted himself against beak. whereas QB had to face the power of a ritual made up by more than a hundred edur warlocks. no wonder he could not break it, but had to trick the edur.

i think as the most powerful mage we have to name the ceda, kuru quan, who beat up all alone hanan mosag and his krisnan who drew the power of chaos by deforming the queen and the prince. and he did it with a nod of his head, without any great efforts.

[Dancer+]

You see Kuru Quan prepared a ritual which is entirely different to using magic on the spur of the moment, Kuru Quan was storing energy essentially so there can be no comparison in my opinion. I could say the same goes for Beak, the fact that it took time for all of the candles to light implies that it's part of some ritual. Again, Tayschrenn at Pale prepared rituals so again I think that should be classed differently.