[SonOfDarkness]

 Jude, on Nov 5 2008, 10:53 PM, said:

 Fifty, on Nov 5 2008, 04:59 AM, said:

(There are, admittedly, some shit decks of Top Trumps where one card reigns supreme.)

Cough Rake. Glad HE'S gone, just in the sense that we don't have anything that can cheapen the last two books any more by playing Deus Ex. I mean the way he handled things at the end of MoI was my one problem with that book aside from the Mhybe ofcourse. haha. It almost made the BB deaths useless. Anyway, Fifty said it pretty good.

Get rich or die trying?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Rake's death suprised me in a way. He seemed so invincible, and then after a short sword-fight BANG he's dead.

Oh well, Nimander will take care of things. Or turn emo again.

[Excellence]

As has been pointed out earlier, you cannot compare a human mage like Ben to a 20,000yo entity like Rake.

Ben has my vote. He took on the 3 sisters. Powerful beyond measure, whose mere swing of a hand could slice through a soletaken Imass. Why do I champion Ben as the most powerful?

It's not how hard you punch, it's how you punch.

For a mortal, he's beefed himself up with warrens and arcane knowledge like no other. What Rake and L'oric have is natural to them... what Ben has was earned.

[Mcflury]

 Excellence, on Nov 22 2008, 01:59 PM, said:

For a mortal, he's beefed himself up with warrens and arcane knowledge like no other. What Rake and L'oric have is natural to them... what Ben has was earned.

Even though I completely understand what you mean, I oblige myself to say magic seems to come natural to mortals too... They either have it or not. Of course, practising your skills will improve you on it.

On a side-note: Beak rules more than QB... also because of the way he punches (as in: he doesn't punch... He takes the blows his entire freaking life and never stops taking them and barely ever lashes out himself... but when he does lash out... oh my...)

[haroos]

I don't understand why people put mages on the same level with gods.
rake is a god, quick ben is just mortal.
he is not on their level.
not even a tiny bit like them.
in reaper's gale and memories of ice we saw how powerfull tayscheren was, and he is stronger than quick ben.
it doesn't mean that QB isn't capable os surprising stronger people or even gods, but it's because he is a brilliant tactician, not because of sheer power.

we've seen in reaper's gale how powerfull mael is, and it is implied on at least 3 occasions that the gods don't use the majority of their power for different reasons.
so putting mortal mages on the same pedestal doesn't make sense to me.
even when QB killed dapple (one of the sisters anyway, i forgot who) it was with help from hedge (so it seemed to me anyway).

[Aptorian]

While I agree with your sentiment about the massive difference in scale of power between an average mage and an ascendant and then again an ascendant and a god, I said as much on the first page, I do believe you're being perhaps a bit too sceptic in your assessement of some mages potential and especially Quicks.

First off the Quick vs Tay power discussion is oooold and impossible to agree upon, but saying Quick is weaker than Tay is in no way certain. Quick has become very powerfull between the Iccy showdown and his attacks on the sisters and Ruin. He also wields (supposedly) all the human accesible warrens with the skill of a high mage. Tay may still beat him through sheer talent and experience... but we all know Quick would cheat

Second off, Mages, even the mortal ones, can be very powerfull, in extreme cases they are perhaps the equal of, or superior to, some ascendants. Mages like Tay, Obo, Agyala, Baruk, etc. are not to be triffled with.

I'm not sure Rake is a good example of a god that is superior to mages, I think he is their better in skill and range because of his experience and ascendant nature, but Rake draws from a warren just like any mortal mage. He isn't the god of any warren, thus Rakes own suspicion that Shadowthrone might be able to take him in GotM.

Elder Gods are pretty much of the scale. They can make you gone with a thought

EDIT: Damn it, my post somehow turned into who'd win

[Mcflury]

 Aptorian, on Nov 22 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

First off the Quick vs Tay power discussion is oooold and impossible to agree upon, but saying Quick is weaker than Tay is in no way certain. Quick has become very powerfull between the Iccy showdown and his attacks on the sisters and Ruin. He also wields (supposedly) all the human accesible warrens with the skill of a high mage. Tay may still beat him through sheer talent and experience... but we all know Quick would cheat

Aye, Quick will always have his goats

 Aptorian, on Nov 22 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

Second off, Mages, even the mortal ones, can be very powerfull, in extreme cases they are perhaps the equal of, or superior to, some ascendants. Mages like Tay, Obo, Agyala, Baruk, etc. are not to be triffled with.

This might be just me, but imo mages like Baruk and Tay are well on their way to become ascended... that's how I see it at least. But that probably has to do with me looking at ascendancy as a sort of power level. So what makes someone ascendant and what doesn't? 'cause to me it seems as if any really skilled and determined person becomes ascendant sooner or later, which is basically used by SE to explain why certain characters succeed in doing quite remarkable things most of the time.

Ah well, ascendants rock... you gotta love Cotillion hitting Gesler in the face (or was is Stormy? Argh, doesn't really matter now ) making sure Gesler breaks his nose... but Cot breaks his hand

 Aptorian, on Nov 22 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

I'm not sure Rake is a good example of a god that is superior to mages, I think he is their better in skill and range because of his experience and ascendant nature, but Rake draws from a warren just like any mortal mage. He isn't the god of any warren, thus Rakes own suspicion that Shadowthrone might be able to take him in GotM.

That might have something to do with ST being Kellanved who was an extremely powerful mage in his mortal form anyways. I'm not very convinced that becoming a god made kellanved that much uberly stronger... to me it just made him more tireless... and mad.

Ugh, thinking in terms of ascendancy and godhood makes my head spin...

[Aptorian]

 Mcflury, on Nov 23 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

Ah well, ascendants rock... you gotta love Cotillion hitting Gesler in the face (or was is Stormy? Argh, doesn't really matter now ) making sure Gesler breaks his nose... but Cot breaks his hand

Silly flurry. That was Coltain. Half ascendant punching half ascendant

Still one of the greatest scenes of the books.

[Mcflury]

 Aptorian, on Nov 23 2008, 01:23 AM, said:

 Mcflury, on Nov 23 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

Ah well, ascendants rock... you gotta love Cotillion hitting Gesler in the face (or was is Stormy? Argh, doesn't really matter now ) making sure Gesler breaks his nose... but Cot breaks his hand

Silly flurry. That was Coltain. Half ascendant punching half ascendant

Still one of the greatest scenes of the books.

Ah yes, silly me. Completely mixed up names Stupid names that begin with 'c'
I apologise... But you got the right scene in your head though, so my message didn't miss

[Ain't_It_Just_]

 Aptorian, on Nov 23 2008, 11:23 AM, said:

 Mcflury, on Nov 23 2008, 12:34 AM, said:

Ah well, ascendants rock... you gotta love Cotillion hitting Gesler in the face (or was is Stormy? Argh, doesn't really matter now ) making sure Gesler breaks his nose... but Cot breaks his hand

Silly flurry. That was Coltain. Half ascendant punching half ascendant

Still one of the greatest scenes of the books.

Lol...silly flurry. Sounds like a kind of pseudo-dessert.

[caladanbrood]

We've always seen, in battles, that when more than one mage works together, the magic they produce can me much greater than the sum of their parts. Builds up momentum and keeps going, as it were. This is why QB can have bursts of quite astonishing power, because he's actually seven mages in one. But he can only do it very occasionally, whereas someone like Rake could strafe tenescowri all day, holding himself up as a dragon while spewing Kurald Galain at them... there's really no contest.

[Asandir]

Normally I would say Quick not willing to die, faced icariums wrath and all that but after careful consideration and after rereading the novels yet again i find that the ever elusive Eel Of Darujhistan is the best. Thwarted Caladan Brood, Iskaral Pust, has invited Gods among others into his dreams and we have yet to see him take the offensive.
Reader beware, the wrath of Kruppe shall soon be upon us....

This post has been edited by Asandir: 24 November 2008 - 01:43 PM

[Hinter]

 Asandir, on Nov 24 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Normally I would say Quick not willing to die, faced icariums wrath and all that but after careful consideration and after rereading the novels yet again i find that the ever elusive Eel Of Darujhistan is the best. Thwarted Caladan Brood, Iskaral Pust, has invited Gods among others into his dreams and we have yet to see him take the offensive.
Reader beware, the wrath of Kruppe shall soon be upon us....

But is he actually a mage or merely a seriously smart cookie? He's never actually magicked anything iirc.

[Blend]

 Hinter, on Nov 24 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

 Asandir, on Nov 24 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Normally I would say Quick not willing to die, faced icariums wrath and all that but after careful consideration and after rereading the novels yet again i find that the ever elusive Eel Of Darujhistan is the best. Thwarted Caladan Brood, Iskaral Pust, has invited Gods among others into his dreams and we have yet to see him take the offensive.
Reader beware, the wrath of Kruppe shall soon be upon us....

But is he actually a mage or merely a seriously smart cookie? He's never actually magicked anything iirc.

Yes he has, though it's not as overt as most mages. He uses his magic to steal things as he's walking the streets, I'm sure there are magical elements to how he keeps track of everything in Darujhistan, he faced down Caladan Brood's hammer, and he was about to use his warren on Lorne and the Imass before she pulled out her Otataral sword, which knocked him out. I think there are enough hints and stuff to say that he is, in fact, a mage.

Next, I'd like to just point out to everyone that one of the main things that Erikson (and Esslemont) have tried to show us in the Malazan world is that all the gods were once mortal. Yes, becoming a god gives you more tools to play with through the use of worship, worshippers and whatnot, but it also ties their hands as is evident with the whole Errant and Feather Witch thing. Gods may technically have more power than a mere mortal mage, but they may not be able to just use it at will. And it all comes back down to their being mortal at some point anyway. So excluding GODS from this discussion isn't necessary, imho. They were once mortals too!

Finally, aren't there a couple of ascendant souls inside Quick, not to mention that he's Soletaken. I think that though he may not have any worshippers, he's prolly up there for high-class ascendants, and just hides it real well. I mean, if Nightchill can hide out inside what's her face and be a High Mage for the Malazan Empire for gods know how long, who's to say that Quick and his horde of souls couldn't do the same?

[Jude]

 Asandir, on Nov 24 2008, 08:42 AM, said:

Reader beware, the wrath of Kruppe shall soon be upon us....

What you're gonna quote Goosebumps at me now?

Also, Blend does Quick really have ascendants inside him? I didn't know it was anyone that hardcore

[Grief]

As far as I know, its never mentioned that the souls inside him are ascendants, theyre merely mages.

[Blend]

 Jude, on Nov 24 2008, 08:12 PM, said:

 Asandir, on Nov 24 2008, 08:42 AM, said:

Reader beware, the wrath of Kruppe shall soon be upon us....

What you're gonna quote Goosebumps at me now?

Also, Blend does Quick really have ascendants inside him? I didn't know it was anyone that hardcore

Doesn't he have one of the Seven Cities holy protectors in him? I thought there was mention of some pretty important people inside of him, mages that were, even, more powerful than him. It's all about the guile, as far as I'm concerned!

[Grief]

No ascendants, or even seriously powerful mages, afaik.
And yes, the mages may have been more powerful than him, before he took there powers, because he would, at that point, have one warren, and it takes many for him to be awesome. Before he got their souls, he was a relatively weak mage, but he was healthy so could survive the desert.

[caladanbrood]

Yeah, no idea if any of them were ascendants... doubt it, but it's the mages of the Holy Falah'd of Seven Cities... think, the level of Spiritwalker Kimloc, who claimed he could destroy the Malazan army beseiging Karakarang, but didn't want to put his city in danger, so held back. Scary powerful.

[Blend]

 caladanbrood, on Nov 24 2008, 08:27 PM, said:

Yeah, no idea if any of them were ascendants... doubt it, but it's the mages of the Holy Falah'd of Seven Cities... think, the level of Spiritwalker Kimloc, who claimed he could destroy the Malazan army beseiging Karakarang, but didn't want to put his city in danger, so held back. Scary powerful.

That's pretty much Ascendant power isn't it? I mean, if you're a Holy Falah'd, you're pretty much an ascendant aren't you? And Kimloc is considered an Ascendant too isn't he?