[D'rek]

Shadowthrone, on Jul 6 2009, 04:24 PM, said:

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Dec 31 2008, 10:11 AM, said:

Yup, convergence coming up, certainly now that

Spoiler

Draconus, Hood and Whiskey Jack

among others are going to be back (loved the ending of TTH)

Did I miss something? Is

Spoiler

Whiskey Jack

back?

There is no evidence to believe that he is.

[T'renn]

Spoiler

He was with Draconus and Hood within the sword when all the other dead were

already gone. Draconus was released from the sword, so WJ must also be. And yes

Draconus was dead too.

Just a thought

Whiskeyjack ascended, as did

all bridgeburners

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 07 July 2009 - 06:59 PM

[D'rek]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jul 7 2009, 02:58 PM, said:

Spoiler

He was with Draconus and Hood within the sword when all the other dead were

already gone. Draconus was released from the sword, so WJ must also be. And yes

Draconus was dead too.

Just a thought

Whiskeyjack ascended, as did

all bridgeburners

Spoiler

Draconus was Dragnipur'd. WJ was not.

While being Dragnipur'd is in many ways equivalent to being dead, it precludes you from passing through Hood's Gate (temporarily at least). WJ doesn't have that. He passed through Hood's Gate like just about everyone else and his fate will be the same as all the other dead that Hood brought into Dragnipur, and they won't suddenly be appearing in the Malaziworld anytime soon.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 08 July 2009 - 01:30 PM

[Aptorian]

Spoiler

Uhm, as far as I understood it, WJ and the BBs weren't bound by Hoods call for the the dead to assemble and march on Dragnipur. They came because it was their duty and an honorable battle. It might have been a part of what paran asked of them in BH.

WJ and the BBs are ascendant ghosts, they are free to roam the world and are certainly not bound by the laws of Hoods army

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on Jul 8 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Spoiler

Uhm, as far as I understood it, WJ and the BBs weren't bound by Hoods call for the the dead to assemble and march on Dragnipur. They came because it was their duty and an honorable battle. It might have been a part of what paran asked of them in BH.

WJ and the BBs are ascendant ghosts, they are free to roam the world and are certainly not bound by the laws of Hoods army

Spoiler

Oh c'mon, they were sitting there in Hood's realm with the other dead soldiers when Gruntle and Quell went in, Hood was giving them plenty of orders, and there is no mention of WJ walking up and saying "boy this is an honorable battle, wants some help there Hood?" or anything like that at any point. Besides, since when does being an ascendant let you do whatever you want after you're dead? It may help you avoid passing through Hood's Gate, but once you do, dead is dead.

Face it. If WJ could just roam around the world as a ghost, he'd be ghost-shagging Korlat instead of fighting yet another war.

And I know you're going to retort with Hedge, but all he did *before* Paran pulled him out of the cesspit of the dead in Raraku is help Fid in HoC *in Raraku* where he already was, and appear in Fid's dream when he slept in Y'Ghatan. This I can live with because they are both BBs and therefore bonded in their ascendancy even if one is dead, and appearing in dreams is not a biggie, while manifesting a little bit physically for one other BB in Raraku is okay with me I guess, there were plenty of other ghosts going haywire in that desert after all...

[T'renn]

They ascended after dying, just like kelanved, just like dancer, just like Dassem. Besides, the

Spoiler

Seguleh second and Toc younger

are back in the realm of the living, aren't they ? Even more so, when the rest of

Spoiler

Hoods army dissapeared, WJ was STILL there, in D-pur. Draconus

was too, so breaking it must've set him free.

This post has been edited by Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn: 08 July 2009 - 07:16 PM

[Urizen]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jul 8 2009, 08:14 PM, said:

They ascended after dying, just like kelanved, just like dancer, just like Dassem. Besides, the

Spoiler

Seguleh second and Toc younger

are back in the realm of the living, aren't they ? Even more so, when the rest of

Spoiler

Hoods army dissapeared, WJ was STILL there, in D-pur. Draconus

was too, so breaking it must've set him free.

No, No and No. Neither Kellanved, Dancer nor Dassem Ultor died, read NoK. While

Spoiler

Seguleh second and Toc younger

are indeed back in the realm of the living, they are back as undead.

[Aptorian]

D'rek, on Jul 8 2009, 08:52 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Jul 8 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Spoiler

Uhm, as far as I understood it, WJ and the BBs weren't bound by Hoods call for the the dead to assemble and march on Dragnipur. They came because it was their duty and an honorable battle. It might have been a part of what paran asked of them in BH.

WJ and the BBs are ascendant ghosts, they are free to roam the world and are certainly not bound by the laws of Hoods army

Spoiler

Oh c'mon, they were sitting there in Hood's realm with the other dead soldiers when Gruntle and Quell went in, Hood was giving them plenty of orders, and there is no mention of WJ walking up and saying "boy this is an honorable battle, wants some help there Hood?" or anything like that at any point. Besides, since when does being an ascendant let you do whatever you want after you're dead? It may help you avoid passing through Hood's Gate, but once you do, dead is dead.

Face it. If WJ could just roam around the world as a ghost, he'd be ghost-shagging Korlat instead of fighting yet another war.

Spoiler

Of course they were in Hoods realm when Gruntle and co came for a visit, and sure they were taking orders. They had assembled with the rest of Hoods forces and were preparing for the final trek or what ever was needed before they plunged into Dragnipur. And of course they were reacting to orders from Hood. There can only be one High Fist, and WJ, as great as a commander as he may seem to be, I am sure didn't have a problem differing to a general whom in every way imaginable must be his superior. Hood is the Lord of Hosts, he calls the shots, while the Knight, WJ and Brukhalian served as Hoods fists.

I think the BBs could and stil can go anywhere they want. Nothing suggests that they can't. They were free in HoC, they were doing weird stuff in that sea of death or what ever that was in BH, and Hedge was free to walk right out of there.

If anything they may be bound to the House of War.

[MTS]

Quote

Spoiler

Oh c'mon, they were sitting there in Hood's realm with the other dead soldiers when Gruntle and Quell went in, Hood was giving them plenty of orders, and there is no mention of WJ walking up and saying "boy this is an honorable battle, wants some help there Hood?" or anything like that at any point. Besides, since when does being an ascendant let you do whatever you want after you're dead? It may help you avoid passing through Hood's Gate, but once you do, dead is dead.

Face it. If WJ could just roam around the world as a ghost, he'd be ghost-shagging Korlat instead of fighting yet another war.

Spoiler

They didn't actually "die" in the traditional sense of the word. If we follow your reasoning, Treach must be dead and his worship keeps him alive. Which isn't so far-fetched, I guess, but Treach is the only person I can think of who died to ascend, as [color=#000000;background:#000000]Kellanved and Dancer didn't, nor did Dassem

. It's annoying that the death=Ascension dynamic is so murky, but the way I see it is Kimloc's song prevented them from passing through Hood's Gate, which is why they are so much freer than other souls.

Why would Whiskeyjack do it? Because he knows shit will hit the fan if Hood doesn't have all the help he can, and if he's successful, he can go his own way, as Hood is dead now. He, possibly with help from Hood, recognised the threat that existed should Dragnipur fail, and so lent a hand. You can't say it's something he wouldn't do.[/color]

EDIT: What are the spoiler requirements for this forum? It's a later book, but people interested in the progression could come and be spoiled.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 09 July 2009 - 05:40 AM

[lobo the wolfman]

Spoiler

Treach was already a ascendant before he ran into the kell hunters. It was his dying that allowed him to become a god. Also for that matter we don't really know how Dancer and Kellenved become gods, expect that they needed the Azath to help them.
It is only the people bound to Dragnipur that where released, not any of the undead army that Hood summoned. WJ and the other BB are dead, and anyway they aren't fully ascendant until the rest of the BB's die. Until then i think they are stuck where the dead are going now.

[D'rek]

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 9 2009, 01:54 AM, said:

Spoiler

Treach was already a ascendant before he ran into the kell hunters. It was his dying that allowed him to become a god. Also for that matter we don't really know how Dancer and Kellenved become gods, expect that they needed the Azath to help them.
It is only the people bound to Dragnipur that where released, not any of the undead army that Hood summoned. WJ and the other BB are dead, and anyway they aren't fully ascendant until the rest of the BB's die. Until then i think they are stuck where the dead are going now.

K&D ascended by using the Azath to get into the Shadow realm, then walking up and sitting their asses on the throne in Shadowhouse. Edgewalker was distracted by Jhenna and the iceberg and so didn't stop them like he would normally do. Maybe.

Spoiler

And I'm glad someone agrees with me that Hood's army isn't going to sprout out of Dragnipur. The BBs *might* have somewhere else to go with Hedge's talk of them walking a long road to something, if that thing isn't Dragnipur (though I think it is), but regardless they're still dead.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 July 2009 - 12:24 PM

[lobo the wolfman]

D'rek, on Jul 9 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

K&D ascended by using the Azath to get into the Shadow realm, then walking up and sitting their asses on the throne in Shadowhouse. Edgewalker was distracted by Jhenna and the iceberg and so didn't stop them like he would normally do. Maybe.

Yes i understand that, but i was wondering if like Treach, did they had to die in order to become gods, or by using the paths of the Azath did they get around this? I remember one of the characters (can't recall who) saying that as one becomes a ascendant they have to leave something behind, and as they get closer to godhood they eventually have to give up everything, eg their mortality or life along with a lot of freedom, in order to become a full god.

Spoiler

I can't understand why people would think that WJ and the BB's would come back after the sword was broken. They may still have a part to play, but not from escaping the sword. From Envy's thoughts and Caladan's words to Baruk it was only those trapped by Dragnipur that are being freed.

This post has been edited by lobo the wolfman: 09 July 2009 - 12:40 PM

[Salt-Man Z]

Spoiler

This is fun!

[T'renn]

Quote

Spoiler

I can't understand why people would think that WJ and the BB's would come back after the sword was broken. They may still have a part to play, but not from escaping the sword. From Envy's thoughts and Caladan's words to Baruk it was only those trapped by Dragnipur that are being freed.

Yes but the dead aren't in the sword at that moment. Just the chained

Spoiler

and Hood and WJ, all others are gone, Hoods army, the BBs and the grey sword. Just the chained and Iskar Jarak

I just reread it.

If

Spoiler

Draconus

reappeared, why not the other "occupants" like

Spoiler

Hood

[lobo the wolfman]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jul 10 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

Quote

Spoiler

I can't understand why people would think that WJ and the BB's would come back after the sword was broken. They may still have a part to play, but not from escaping the sword. From Envy's thoughts and Caladan's words to Baruk it was only those trapped by Dragnipur that are being freed.

Yes but the dead aren't in the sword at that moment. Just the chained

Spoiler

and Hood and WJ, all others are gone, Hoods army, the BBs and the grey sword. Just the chained and Iskar Jarak

I just reread it.

If

Spoiler

Draconus

reappeared, why not the other "occupants" like

Spoiler

Hood

Spoiler

What i trying to say is that all of the people chained to the wagon in Dragnipurs pocket warren will have been freed when Caladan broke the sword. Hood, Draconus and every one else, but not WJ as he is dead, and he was not chained to dragnipur. He will more then likely go with the rest of the BB's.

[D'rek]

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 9 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jul 10 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

Quote

Spoiler

I can't understand why people would think that WJ and the BB's would come back after the sword was broken. They may still have a part to play, but not from escaping the sword. From Envy's thoughts and Caladan's words to Baruk it was only those trapped by Dragnipur that are being freed.

Yes but the dead aren't in the sword at that moment. Just the chained

Spoiler

and Hood and WJ, all others are gone, Hoods army, the BBs and the grey sword. Just the chained and Iskar Jarak

I just reread it.

If

Spoiler

Draconus

reappeared, why not the other "occupants" like

Spoiler

Hood

Spoiler

What i trying to say is that all of the people chained to the wagon in Dragnipurs pocket warren will have been freed when Caladan broke the sword. Hood, Draconus and every one else, but not WJ as he is dead, and he was not chained to dragnipur. He will more then likely go with the rest of the BB's.

Yup. Even if he did pop back out, he doesn't have a body to occupy like the other two (or the power to make a new one). And it'd be highly anticlimactic if he went about posessing people for comic relief...

[lobo the wolfman]

D'rek, on Jul 10 2009, 10:32 PM, said:

lobo the wolfman, on Jul 9 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on Jul 10 2009, 03:30 AM, said:

Quote

Spoiler

I can't understand why people would think that WJ and the BB's would come back after the sword was broken. They may still have a part to play, but not from escaping the sword. From Envy's thoughts and Caladan's words to Baruk it was only those trapped by Dragnipur that are being freed.

Yes but the dead aren't in the sword at that moment. Just the chained

Spoiler

and Hood and WJ, all others are gone, Hoods army, the BBs and the grey sword. Just the chained and Iskar Jarak

I just reread it.

If

Spoiler

Draconus

reappeared, why not the other "occupants" like

Spoiler

Hood

Spoiler

What i trying to say is that all of the people chained to the wagon in Dragnipurs pocket warren will have been freed when Caladan broke the sword. Hood, Draconus and every one else, but not WJ as he is dead, and he was not chained to dragnipur. He will more then likely go with the rest of the BB's.

Yup. Even if he did pop back out, he doesn't have a body to occupy like the other two (or the power to make a new one). And it'd be highly anticlimactic if he went about posessing people for comic relief...

Then again maybe the series could use a Bob like character, going around processing people and starting orgies just for kicks. It lighten the story a bit......

[T'renn]

Maybe a stroll through the right warren will help? It worked quite well for Hedgie

[ISTN4249]

theyll probably just ghost around like the Crimson Guard brethren who have died

[K'azz D'Avore]

WhiskeyJack has quite a following...
I must say i never cared much for the bridgeburners except for Quick Ben.
Howver I'm interested in this novel as i like the Darujhistan crowd...Rallick Nom, Crokus, and that bum Kruppe.