[Ain't_It_Just_]

I only realised this after the book. Gothos is trapped in Tremorlor, or something like that, isn't he? How was he in a Jaghut tower on the Lamatath Plain?

-AIJ, just KNOWS he's missed something

[Lisheo]

Turns out Gothos aint as trapped as we thought. He can travel between the Azath, it seems.

[Grief]

If you remember there was some speculation about ST, by some of the BBs(QB and Kalam, I think). Which basically hinted that, if, instead of being captured by the azath, you were granted entry, you could travel the paths of the azath. Gothos, since he probably has the power to at least do some serious damage to an azath, has some such bargain with the azath, and as such can do the same.

If you're still confused, i'll dig up the quotes for you.

[Rahvinn]

A thought occurred as i read this; am i making this up or was there the corpse of a dead guardian in the Azath House in Tremelor?
A friend has my books so I cant look it up, i remember there was an 'empty' suit of armor alright, but i thought Fiddler or someone tripped over a body and Moby was to become the new doorman/bodyguard
So going on this maybe the Azath granted Gothos passage to other Azath houses based on expediant circumstances, and the tower we see him in is his 'home'
obviously he's been there some time if he's amassed all those souls in the black ice, and he was keeping the builder as his back door out of the azath house for when he wanted to leave their 'service'

[a Perfect Rake]

You guys remember the scene where some of the characters were traveling by means of Azath, and it was like a massive white tiled realm of nothing?

and if you fell through a white tile..you would end up in a certain place? I don't remember the characters involved..but it's obvious that those within the Azath can travel to any other Azath.

[Aptorian]

Rahvinn, on Oct 20 2008, 12:37 AM, said:

A thought occurred as i read this; am i making this up or was there the corpse of a dead guardian in the Azath House in Tremelor?
A friend has my books so I cant look it up, i remember there was an 'empty' suit of armor alright, but i thought Fiddler or someone tripped over a body and Moby was to become the new doorman/bodyguard
So going on this maybe the Azath granted Gothos passage to other Azath houses based on expediant circumstances, and the tower we see him in is his 'home'
obviously he's been there some time if he's amassed all those souls in the black ice, and he was keeping the builder as his back door out of the azath house for when he wanted to leave their 'service'

I don't think that the Armored Guardian that speaks to Moby is Gothos. As we see in NoK, multiple guardians work for each Azath.

Some have even theoriesed that there's nothing inside the armor, merely some spirit working for the Azath.

[Nakorite]

Doc, on Oct 20 2008, 10:48 AM, said:

You guys remember the scene where some of the characters were traveling by means of Azath, and it was like a massive white tiled realm of nothing?

and if you fell through a white tile..you would end up in a certain place? I don't remember the characters involved..but it's obvious that those within the Azath can travel to any other Azath.

Didn't kalam use this at one point?

[Traveller]

Kalam was put into the Deadhouse on Malaz Island by Shadowthrone.

Fiddler, Mappo, Icarium, Cutter and Apsalar all entered Tremorlor, and crossed the tiles. They stretched off in all directions, hinting at many more Azaths.

And, the 'black ice' was dragons blood - or a door into it. I'm not certain that Gothos 'amassed' the souls in it - I think they became trapped another way. Gothos tells Nimander that Tiste Andii are particularly susceptable, which is also seen in MT's, with all the Andii souls in the black rock.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 20 October 2008 - 07:02 AM

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I suppose we don't know the extent of Gothos's abilities as we don't know how "trapped" he is.

Didn't he want to kill that Builder of the Azath? Or something like that.

[Traveller]

Well, he wasn't happy about the Tower being built in the dragons blood, or the fact that the builder escaped. He realised that letting Nimander get taken was a bad idea - his continuing 'folly.'

He does seem to be able to move through the Azath, at least enough to visit the builder to approve of his Houses before removing them elsewhere.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

And from your signature we can tell how insane he has gone from being inside an Azath...

[D'rek]

The suits of armor and the Guardians of the Azath are not necessarily the same, especially if indeed each Azath has only one Guardian, because in tBH Temper isn't even in the Azath when the suit of armor takes Kalam inside. Anyhoo, there would appear to be some varying degrees of freedom for the Guardians and other entities of the Azath. Folks like Temper who willingly took on a role like Guardian can go clubbing down the street, but Guardians that are forced into service like Jhenna or Raest are prevented from leaving the Azath itself.

Gothos is most certainly not a Guardian, and I don't think he's ever referred to as such. He was originally in the Azath house in the Jhag Odhan, where Phyrlis now stands, the one Icarium destroyed. However, we've since seen him sitting by a fire in the Deadhouse and now on the Lamatath plain. It would not be unreasonable to believe that Gothos has some higher function for the Azath that he performs in exchange for their protection and usage. Based on what the Azath-building-dude says, it would seem his role is to collect newly-built Azath houses. Perhaps after he enters them and the House is finished, he teleports them to wherever they are supposed to go, or some such thing, while keeping the Builder from doing something unfavourable...

[Excellence]

Azath is a transport hub. All houses are linked.

[Jude]

D'rek, on Nov 23 2008, 04:49 PM, said:

. Perhaps after he enters them and the House is finished, he teleports them to wherever they are supposed to go, or some such thing, while keeping the Builder from doing something unfavourable...

The thing with that, D'rek is that the builder also teleported when the azath was finished, and it's not as if he knew what he was doing. I definitely got from that whole little section that when an azath was finished being built, that's when it disappeared to someplace else. Gothos didn't have anything to do with it's dissappearing. Maybe, though, he did have some control over where it ended up, once inside, because he knew how to work that shit. That would mean that, without Gothos's influence, they would pop up randomly. Maybe Gothos has been placing them specifically for some large scheme, he being the true puppeteer in manipulating events thus far?

[heboric]

remember that gothos made the azath in the firts place (prolog RG) and that he cary the finest of ALL azaths. he can probably do more or less what he wants inside an azath huse

[Sinisdar Toste]

Gothos didn't make the azath in the first place, they are most likely older than him, and azaths dont have Finnests, they trap them. in the RG prologue he's taking the soul of Scabandari Bloodeye and putting it in a Finnest.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 02 December 2008 - 09:43 PM

[D'rek]

Finnest being just a funny word for an object used to hold a repository of power extracted from someone. Oftentimes, it is a piece or the entirety of their "soul" in the Finnest. Examples: Gothos made one to store Scabby's spirit; Raest had one that stored a lot of his power, probably made by another Jaghut when they struck him down.

[Excellence]

Gothos didn't make the azath, they've existed for millennia unknown. He merely made a Finnest. A Finnest is a repository of power, that's all.

[Traveller]

D'rek, on Nov 23 2008, 09:49 PM, said:

Gothos is most certainly not a Guardian, and I don't think he's ever referred to as such. He was originally in the Azath house in the Jhag Odhan, where Phyrlis now stands, the one Icarium destroyed. However, we've since seen him sitting by a fire in the Deadhouse and now on the Lamatath plain. It would not be unreasonable to believe that Gothos has some higher function for the Azath that he performs in exchange for their protection and usage. Based on what the Azath-building-dude says, it would seem his role is to collect newly-built Azath houses. Perhaps after he enters them and the House is finished, he teleports them to wherever they are supposed to go, or some such thing, while keeping the Builder from doing something unfavourable...

It was strange to see Gothos almost 'directing' in some way the construction of the Azath. He seemed to approve them, according to the builder, but beyond that is unknown. The last stone being placed was the trigger for the removal of the house elswhere, but Gothos may not have had a part in that.

In GotM, the Azath 'grows' in direct response to the Finnest being placed in the ground; a spot chosen by Lorn with the intent of luring Raest, and creating the most amount of damage. She didn't seem to anticipate this. This would only tie in with the builder/gothos if the place in which the Azath houses are built/approved is in a sort of stasis - the houses are completed, but only rise when and where they are needed.

The same might be said for the house in Lether that 'dies' in RG - the life force of the azath is transported in the child Kettle, dormant until the point when it is merged with the flint dagger/finnest containing Scabandari - resulting in a new house taking root and growing.

The only question would be would Scabby warrant an entire azath to contain him? A Tyrant's Finnest would, fair enough, but if a new house grew just to contain a trapped ascendant, there would be a lot more of them.

Although... having said that, I think a whole house rose to contain Ruin after Scabbys betrayal. So maybe the azath only rise when they sense an immobile/vulnerable power.

[D'rek]

Traveller, on Dec 3 2008, 03:28 AM, said:

It was strange to see Gothos almost 'directing' in some way the construction of the Azath. He seemed to approve them, according to the builder, but beyond that is unknown. The last stone being placed was the trigger for the removal of the house elswhere, but Gothos may not have had a part in that.

Well it seems the House-maker was not always stuck in that cesspit of the blood of dragons. Back in the old days, he probably wandered around like any Elder and made Azaths wherever he damn well felt like it. Since Gothos is so reluctant to go into the cesspit, it seems likely that Gothos was teleporting the Houses away before the Housemaker got stuck in there. That being said, the Housemaker might have been stuck somewhere else instead... Regardless, perhaps Gothos coming to teleport the Azath to specific locations as determined by certain necessities has increased the Orderliness of the Azaths, helping them to fight against Chaos? Or else Gothos just likes to trap annoying powers like Raest and he does it on purpose, hence the phrase from GotM that Azath rise where unchained power threatens life.

Quote

In GotM, the Azath 'grows' in direct response to the Finnest being placed in the ground; a spot chosen by Lorn with the intent of luring Raest, and creating the most amount of damage. She didn't seem to anticipate this. This would only tie in with the builder/gothos if the place in which the Azath houses are built/approved is in a sort of stasis - the houses are completed, but only rise when and where they are needed.

That is also quite possible, especially considering how we've seen time be somewhat distorted in the Azath houses.

Quote

The same might be said for the house in Lether that 'dies' in RG - the life force of the azath is transported in the child Kettle, dormant until the point when it is merged with the flint dagger/finnest containing Scabandari - resulting in a new house taking root and growing.

The only question would be would Scabby warrant an entire azath to contain him? A Tyrant's Finnest would, fair enough, but if a new house grew just to contain a trapped ascendant, there would be a lot more of them.

I think the Lether house had to be 'rebuilt' no matter what, and the reason it was done in the Refugium was to contain the dozen-or-so gates, especially the Starvald Demelain one. Now those gates are inside the Azath, which presumably can do a better job of managing them then the failed Bonecaster who was trying before.

Quote

Although... having said that, I think a whole house rose to contain Ruin after Scabbys betrayal. So maybe the azath only rise when they sense an immobile/vulnerable power.

I'm pretty sure the Lether Azath was already there before Ruin was betrayed.