[Malaclypse]

originally from here

Trull's son, on Oct 17 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

yes jude, indeed you would

I hate to discourage anybody who's not obviously obnoxious but the post directly above is spam. By all means respond to personal shite if you like, but stay on topic and contribute something to the discussion at the same time. There is a very active spam forum available if you want to pursue stuff like this. If I had the time I would do everything I could to purge the book forums of this kind of thing (notice my restraint in terms of terminology). Why is it that people who are seriously interested in exploring questions/issues/etc. related to the actual content of the books have no place to go? If I had the time I would police these forums and fix it myself but I wonder why it's not more of a priority for other similarly minded members? grrr, arrrgh *sigh*

[zwitterion]

(chill out mal it costs maybe 1KB of diskspace and hardly derails the thread. no one wants to post in an unfriendly forum.)

[Malaclypse]

zwitterion, on Oct 17 2008, 03:08 AM, said:

(chill out mal it costs maybe 1KB of diskspace and hardly derails the thread. no one wants to post in an unfriendly forum.)

Diskspace is not the issue. Spam in the book forums does, in fact, derail threads. Of course it does, it cannot do otherwise. I've been bitching about it for years. I can't tell you how many times I've clicked on a thread, interested in the subject as expressed in the title, only to find that the current conversation has nothing whatever to do with the title. I was here when it started to happen and the staff were too afraid of scaring away new members to do anything about it. Bah, it was always a losing battle past a certain point

But it's my thread and I'm calling a moratorium on spam within it. Comment on the subject, is that so hard?

[zwitterion]

well now it's derailed what say we move this to the moderation forum or something

[Malaclypse]

zwitterion, on Oct 17 2008, 03:30 AM, said:

well now it's derailed what say we move this to the moderation forum or something

ha! touche. By all means, lead on

[zwitterion]

leaded

[Malaclypse]

in the Announcements?!

OK, I'm game

Any spam in the book forums is too much, imo.

I watched the deterioration of constructive dialogue as it happened, in real time and was powerless to stop it back when ...whenever Tiste Simeon joined. Prior to that point, people just seemed to regulate themselves. Personal and/or irrelevant comments were there, but never alone. The threads stayed on topic.

The unwillingness of the staff and the influx of new members at the time led to a rapid decline in the quality of conversation in the book forums. The owner at the time was gutless and wasn't even a hardcore fan of the Malazan books (ChrisW, this means you).

The fact is that it would take a herculean effort to drag the situation back to a level that I would be pleased with and we'd need an army of committed moderators to accomplish it at this point. It still boggles my mind though - why can't people stay on topic? We have a spam forum for a reason, I thought. Why must it infect the book forums? Bah.

[zwitterion]

yeah i didn't think it was phoenix inn style stuff so idk...
imo policing puts off people too much; posting on the interwebs is a whim-based activity to begin with people don't need discouragement. threads are re-railed as easily as they are derailed, so simply drop a post in there that's relevant to the OP and you'll find the problem fixed.

[Silencer]

Hmmmm....I'm with Mal on this. Spam doesn't have a place in the book forums. However, at the same time, there is nothing wrong with side-discussions/tangents, or the odd comment popped on the end of a post.

And, of course, zwitterion's point is very valid. Over-policing kills things. Quickly. What I feel, is that someone like Apt/Abyss/Dancer/etc....it's OK with them. As they normally also post something relevant, although not always. BUT, they are older members. Well-established, well-known. It's different for someone with 1 or two posts to come in, and go and do the same thing. If a thread still discusses something relevant to the topic, it's all good. If it gets actually de-railed...then I take an issue. Even if it was an older member who started it.

Gah. That was a very contradictory post. But I hope you get my position!

[caladanbrood]

Turning an almost valid point into a personal dig. Impressive, mal...
The problem with a series such as this is that everything is so interconnected, you can't usually discuss one specific point without it linking into many more, and if someone makes a point about a connected topic which is more interesting than the original, then people will discuss that as well, and then the original point will fade out. This is almost unavoidable, Malazan is not David Eddings, with everything nice and partitioned.

On the topic of one-line spam, is it really in anyway worth bothering about? We've always had a friendly atmosphere, and there's certainly always been a degree of spam in the cool boards, ever since mid-2002 when I joined, I can't comment on before then. It's never been a serious problem, and it still isn't. A worse problem is the lack of acceptability among a certain cliq to any discussions, just dismissing stuff out of hand without really discussing it. That attitude is one of the things that encourages the spam in the first place, because people eventually can't be arsed with proper posts because they feel they will be shot down anyway.

If you want a personal crusade, find some mods who will have the time, dedication, and lack of imagination to delete every vaguely off topic post and split up topics every time it moves vaguely off-topic. It will drive people away and ruin the whole board due to sense of humour failure. But good luck with that

[Osric]

If you want my opinion (you probably dont but I dont care <3) I mostly agree with Malaclypse, stuff like in the first post shouldnt be there, a lot of people come here to read our discussions about it as well, personal stuff should go in other forums. However I don't think we can stay on one topic too much, opinions and answers raise other questions, at some point if it really derails maybe another topic should be created. Mods can always assist in that.

This isnt the Nintendo Wii forums, Im sure people that manage to read SE's books have enough intelligence to keep the forums clean and use the rules. Rules need to be clear though.

[Malaclypse]

I'll deal with you next time I see you on trillian or in person brood - you bloody well know what I'm talking about and I'm well familiar with your pseudo-devil's advocate bullshit arguments that crumble as you retreat when things get hot so it's not worth the effort

I know it's a hopeless struggle at this point, but I'm right and it is fixable with enough effort. In any case, if people can bitch endlessly about superficial things they don't appreciate in terms of how things have changed on the forum, then why can't I revisit my ancient gripe?

[Lisheo]

12 in a row is insane, what thread was that Hetan?

[Gem Windcaster]

I have the greatest sympathy for you guys. Being a mod on another forum, I know how it is to being forced to do nothing but delete spam all day. If you can nip this in the bud it would help the forum very much in the long run. Thanks for your hard work, admin people!


- Gem, is not trying to ass kiss; is just being honest...

[Wry]

I agree that one liners in the book forums are frustrating, but i don't think moderation will solve it. really we just need to get back into the habit of moderating ourselves (us normal members that is). If most members frown on this i don't see anyone regularly doing it, we've just allowed the lines between the book forums and the spam forums to blur.


On a side note, has anyone notice a pretty aggressive streak creeping in here these days, starting from some admins all the way down to the cheapseats? aren't we all taking this a bit too seriously? or am i alone in thinking this place is alot less fun now a days?

[Malaclypse]

@Wry: For myself, yeah, trying to deal with all the myriad things that need doing around here in the wake of the cataclysmic change frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. I don't have the technical expertise to deal with a lot of it and it seems an impossible and thankless task trying to keep people happy while things get sorted out. As soon as the need is not so great, I will happily fade into the background, only occasionally venturing from my cave to growl at passersby.

ETA: so I was thinking, what if we put out a call for mods that would focus on the book forums, dealing specifically with spam and spoilers. They would have the power to edit or delete posts and move threads to the appropriate forum if it's needed. There's no need to be militant about it (said the pot to the kettle), enough gentle reminders would serve just as well if not better.

Incidentally, Hetan and I first got to know each other due to this very issue more than 3 years ago now (I think?). At the time, there was one poster in particular (not naming names so as not to commit a 'personal dig') who would post a nonsensical post in every forum, in rapid succession so his name would appear all the way down the main forum page as the most recent poster. Sometimes he would do the same in individual forums as well. One time I caught him asking a question in the Other Fantasy that had been clearly answered two posts before his. The staff at the time did nothing, or next to nothing about it and we were so enraged that we became co-moderators of the Deadhouse Gates forum so we could have one place that was free of this person's insidious influence. So I guess I should thank that asshole, in a way.

Oh, and for anybody that doesn't already know, brood and I have been sparring for years, it's nothing personal

[Lisheo]

Well, I would volunteer for the job on one of the earlier forums, if you'd mind, Mal. I'm thinking RG, or else one of the books before HoC.

EDIT: Considering all the work you've done for us, I'd be glad help in some small way.

This post has been edited by Lisheo: 17 October 2008 - 02:51 PM

[caladanbrood]

Well not mentioned. Really, impressive

I should have anticipated the response I got, I suppose. And I suppose were I still a mod I would feel the same, but I have no internet other than my phone at the moment, so I barely even read the book boards at the moment.

Hetan, not arguing that is ridiculous. I mean the little stuff is fine, obviously occasional stupid stuff like that is what mods are here for in the first place

[Wry]

@Mal: Frustration is understandable, and i for one appreciate the immense effort the past coupla months must have taken, that wasn't a personal dig, just a gentle reminder lol

As for the extra moding, sure it's a good idea, and may well work. If i can help in any way let me know. My votes... Wert (especially in other fantasy), Dolorous any of the book forums (assuming he's still around) Apt ditto (assuming he's sober)... there's loads who can do it. Just hope that a gentle hand is applied, the real charm of this place has always been that the members had a level of mutual respect, i worry that heavy handed moderation could ruin the atmosphere.