[dktorode]

As it stands i think we have definite "sides" here. We have people that dont like morgoth, the people who seem to be symping him by pushing the train elsewere and then the fence sitters.
It is very interesting how the cases and votes against morgoth have seemed to have been blocked and people have been pushing/pushed to look elsewhere.
Lace has, to me at least, not been showing any signs of being a killer. But could very well be a symp stirring the pot.
He is new...so i dont know, i just dont see a new player purposefully stepping on peoples toes if he were a killer, his partner would have told him off thread to shut up long time ago. So i wont be voting for him today i dont think.

Now we have vengeance, seeming to know that alt146 will turn up inno, yet still voting for him and taking part in getting the lynch. If he didnt like the lynch then why the hell vote? Oh and lets not forget the "removal" of his vote which was oh ever so slightly too late. And yet he has the gall to call someone else out on doing what he himself has also done? He also has ignored the case on morgoth and attacks the person voting morgoth.

I wouldn't discount Venge and morgy both being scum to be honest.
I can see gem and tapper and lisheo all as potential symps.

So...to cut a long story short, i would like to lynch either vengeance or morgoth today.
I'll start my hungover monday with

Vote Venge

[Morgoth]

In regards to the Tapper case: It seems to exist depending on me being a killer.I'm not a killer, and thus I don't see any merit to it.

hmpf, I have to go out, but I'll be back to talk about Vengyboy, Lisheo and Gem too, don't worry

[drinksinbars]

Morgoth, on Oct 20 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

drinksinbars, on Oct 20 2008, 12:45 PM, said:

well if the lynch on lace goes through and he comes up inno, if i vote for you again tomorrow will i get a train runn over me and i come up inno is it then that people might think soemthing is fishy about you? All we really have to go on is how people vote. You think i am a symp, but i must be symping someone off the radar because i am not taking pressure off the vocal players, and very few others playing have been looked at.

Obdi is nearly none existant and many players (mocker for example) have barely been mentioned though they are posting heavily. If i am a symp, who do you think is my master?

Calling someone symp as well and voting for them is redundant - and you know that. If i was a symp i would come up inno, so a lynch on me wouldnt give any info. Do you not have a suspect for killer?

Yes, I do have suspicions. I just ended up responding to your posts first. As for who I think are your masters: A good symp does not sym his master directly, he acts in a way that pulls attention away from the master wthout it being obvious. Which you certainly could've been doing. You mentioned Mocker yes, and then there's dk (who's playing a very different game from his usual one), and Silencer. I'm planning to make a case on dk when I have the time today, but I dunno if that'll convince you.

actually i ahve barely noticed dk this game which is unusual. Though he did just say he found you scummy. Silencer is another player i havent really got a read on, though there was a lot of talk about his voting without a reason. Like i said earlyier i have only made it to like page 21 in my reading of the weekend and skimmed the rest.

[dktorode]

Morgoth, on Oct 20 2008, 12:40 PM, said:

I'm being so defensive, if you chose to call it that, because I know you and I know this game. Give another two votes on a train led by you and there'll be damn little I can do to stop you all from lynching me. So, I decide to respond to all your allegations now, and I try my best to show why I find them weak. Sure, you can probably tied this into the acts of a killer, or a symp, but you can also see it as an innocent who do not want to be lynched early when there are much better candidates available.

You vote for dibs, even though you claim to know how we play when we are scum, and have said that dibs is playing his normal inno self?

[drinksinbars]

Morgoth, on Oct 20 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

In regards to the Tapper case: It seems to exist depending on me being a killer.I'm not a killer, and thus I don't see any merit to it.

hmpf, I have to go out, but I'll be back to talk about Vengyboy, Lisheo and Gem too, don't worry

actually i dont think it is, and this was what i mentioned earlier, its well known or assumed that we would go for one another (though it happens less than people realise) so if tapper was a killer and you WEREN'T, it is possible that tapper choose you as a possibly symping target with the knowledge that if you came up innno he could claim PI afterward.

The fact is we dont have finders, so lynching is our only chance for getting info on alignment, and if someone is seen to be defending an inno and that inno is lynched it can be used as a defence.

This is WIFOM, but i dont think you should discount things so easily. Likewise if you are guilty i wont immeadiately vote tapper either.

[dktorode]

Morgoth, on Oct 20 2008, 12:52 PM, said:

and then there's dk (who's playing a very different game from his usual one), and Silencer. I'm planning to make a case on dk when I have the time today, but I dunno if that'll convince you.

Different?...how so?

The only thing thats different is that this game started on a friday, so i have had half a day to contribute...you are more than welcome to try and make a case on me.

As far as mocker is concerned i foind his posts to be very sporadic and he does seem very much to go with the flow.
I might take a closer look at his posts if i have some time today...im still feeling the lingering effects of the weekends booze marathon so feeling a bit green around the gills as well.
Trying to muster up the energy after catching up on 15 pages is not easy.

[Tapper]

Actually, DiBs, you make a nice effort there to group people together, a perfect symp preparing the playing field for his masters. You started with Morgoth, saying he's a killer, then added the Dude, and me and Gem with Gem as my symp and me partnered to Morgy.

That's 4 players, a sizeable minority and currently including 2 possibly lynchworthy targets: Gem for symping and possibly me for getting symped and going after Lace, plus our combined voting for alt and Lace. The Dude and Morgy are probably out of reach still, but if you can link me to Morgy as a symp when I come up inno, you stand pretty strong. You could probably stand even stronger if you manage to link Gem to Morgoth.
You shouldn't have problems getting Gem down: she is certainly lynchmaterial for today (Gavin made sure of that), but if she's anything, she's a symp, so she'll come up innocent. You're aware of that, of course.

Since the group you named is so large, you make sure that lynching one doesn't immediately falsify your theory, so we'll have to lynch on, and those of us willing to distance ourselves from the others can either do so by role revealing if they have one (not advised, for none of the roles on the inno side are revealworthy: guard will stay hidden until at the least 1 scum is dead, vigilante must use his kill before that, the fireman-healer is a role that never reveals).
So, the sole way to possibly get away from suspicion is either voting for the others, or abstaining from defending.
More, for all I could know, Morgy, the Dude and Gem are indeed scum and I'm just an unlucky bastard to be a part of your linked group, so I can't defend myself through (EDIT: this should be read as: defending based on falsifying the association between the four of us implicated ones right here and now) them with some measure of certainty.
Only with 3 lynched and no scum will we know for certain that you were partially wrong. The game has moved on for quite some time after that (7 dead people if all lynches + kills incl. vig get through).
In the meantime, your masters will kill on and on outside of the 4 named, netting another 4 kills if this is all played out the way you set it up. Since none of us will be targeted, it will just add weight to your cause, after all, we wouldn't target ourselves, would we? the same for you getting killed. "look, he's dead, he was probably silenced!"

Lastly, you didn't implicate any of the silent people in your schedule. Especially if there are 3 killers, 1 symp, I'd expect one of the killers to be a lowposter, but you're not even searching for a target amongst them. The bad thing is; if I'm spot on, I really don't know who your masters are.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 20 October 2008 - 11:25 AM

[Tapper]

The above post was a crosspost with your (DiBs) 01:03 post.

[dktorode]

So your calling dibs a symp with no proof other than he has made up a story/case that allows him some leeway if he is wrong?

[Tapper]

Yeah, while at the same time (he's) seeming particularly certain about it.
I can't prove a thing, sadly, so it just remains a 'what if DiBs is a symp?' hypothesis.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 20 October 2008 - 11:36 AM

[dktorode]

Tapper, on Oct 20 2008, 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah, while at the same time (he's) seeming particularly certain about it.
I can't prove a thing, sadly, so it just remains a 'what if DiBs is a symp?' hypothesis.

I find it interesting that you don't really put much weight on the side of "what if dibs is RIGHT" hypothesis?

It just seems to me that you are trying to discredit dibs case, but cant seem to find any decent "mistake" of his to use to discredit him.
I know that dibs has painted a picture that depicts yourself as scum and you understandably dont want this, but the fact remains that he could be right about morgoth (wich you even admit to) yet you yourself are more confident that he is scum rather than, say morgoth or Gem? Even though there is more (i know not extremely convincing) evidence in the favor of dibs?

[Jump Around]

I have been re-reading Gem's posts since the NK and it does bug me a little how she was quick to point that J_slr's death was pointing at her.

Honestly, if some similar thing happened to me (eg Obdigore dies on night 1) I would have though "Oh shit" and try to let it pass, unless someone brings up the point. That's of course, assuming I'm inno and worried of the frame.

I think it might be a "talking villain" syndrome, trying to come up with what how an inno would react and acting it, ending up slightly off.

That doesn't make myself want to change my vote right now, but it does confirm that I will switch to Gem if needed.

[Path-Shaper]

It is day two. There are 13 hours, 10 minutes remaining.

16 dancers still getting down: Baudin,Dktorode, DrinksinBars, Gavin, Gem, Jump Around, Lacedaemonian, Lisheo, Mocker, Morgoth, Obdigore Silencer, Tapper, The Dude,Vengeance, Yellow,

9 votes to lynch, 8 to go to night.

2 Votes Morgoth: DiBs, Lacedaemonian
3 Votes Lacedaemonian: Vengeance, Tapper, Gem Windcaster
2 Votes Gem: Silencer, Yellow
3 votes Vengeance: Jump Around, Lisheo, Dktorode
1 vote Drinksinbars : Morgoth

Players yet to vote: Baudin,, Gavin, Mocker, Obdigore, The Dude

this all-nighter mod's gotta bounce soon. you'll be modless till Grief gets on, since Bent is seemingly still sick.

[Jump Around]

Path-Shaper, on Oct 20 2008, 02:51 PM, said:

It is day two. There are 13 hours, 10 minutes remaining.

Urgh, that makes day time out at 4AM for me, that's the worst timing

Los Americanos will show up soon, hopefully they are in a talking mood.

This post has been edited by Jump Around: 20 October 2008 - 11:55 AM

[Tapper]

I said that I could fairly well be the sole inno in a group with 3 scum. To be entirely honest, I haven't seen a whole lot that convinces me of Morgy's guilt, but haven't expressedly searched for it: partly because I know I'm not his symp/partner EDIT: so anything based on my association with him is automatically false). Even less have I read on DiBs' case on the Dude. Gem's symping pretty obviously, and I already said I'd be willing to lynch her. So yeah, DiBs most certainly could be right about the other 3 and I acknowledged that.

What I wanted to do is explore the possible set-up if he is scum. But, I think implicating a large group of people is dangerous. If proof isn't forecoming that he's right or wrong out of the first lynch, then you'll have to lynch on. DiBs is verbally strong enough to make the group continue. Notice the if. As for going down: I really don't mind if it is for the greater good. I also acknowledged that getting 2 inno's doesn't mean the other 2 are inno. That's the real problem here: it could well be that you only hit scum on the last lynch.
All I have right now is a theory based on a huge 'what if' and unsupported by fact (I acknowledged that, too).

But I dislike people being grouped together like this: it points at a massive time-investment to either prove completely or falsify completely. That buys the killers a lot of time if he's wrong or misleading us, precisely because the scum could be the last guy you didn't lynch because the first two/three came up inno.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 20 October 2008 - 12:01 PM

[drinksinbars]

@tapper - you forgot lisheo who i rated higher onthe symp possibility than gem. in fact if you read over my latest posts you wil see that i actually discount gem as a possible symp. I am glad everyone thinks i am such a great mafia player, but i am just calling things as i see them. The fact that i am not going after the silent player is that its impossible to get a read on a player who doesnt post. thats just a fact of life. I stated i didnt have a read on obdi and mocker because they havent been very standout. That people are going with the flow as dk puts it, is such a standard affair that the more vocal of us usually bitch about it and have created threads int he past.

I though when i think i have found soemone i base my assumptions off that persons guilt and work out from it. So if players are staying clear of morgo i wont focus as much on them but then there are at least 14 innos when the game starts and if i find one killer i think i am doing well so it shouldnt be all on me to search through everybody. you and say lisheo as he is number three(symp) then it stands to reason that is the group i would focus on as there seem to be a lot of cross ovver between you and morgo, with lisheo self proclaimed pro mrogoth and bouncing votes on and off everyone.

Use the argument i gave against morgoth then, if you are inno you can discount yourself from being a guilty player, obviously, so look at the voting patterns today and yesterday when morgo is under pressure and see if you can spot any trends. Also look at the way players are follwoing YOU, tapper and wonder why that is. I am sorry to say that for the most part inane and ridiculous cases are those that get votes, it soemtimes feels that cases with some attempts at evidence or case building are rubbished as possible attempts at a lynch train, yet it is lace not morgoth who faces lynching today and for playing insulting and non communicatively.

[dktorode]

Tapper, on Oct 20 2008, 01:55 PM, said:

I said that I could fairly well be the sole inno in a group with 3 scum. To be entirely honest, I haven't seen a whole lot that convinces me of Morgy's guilt, but haven't expressedly searched for it: partly because I know I'm not his symp/partner EDIT: so anything based on my association with him is automatically false). Even less have I read on DiBs' case on the Dude. Gem's symping pretty obviously, and I already said I'd be willing to lynch her. So yeah, DiBs most certainly could be right about the other 3 and I acknowledged that.

What I wanted to do is explore the possible set-up if he is scum. But, I think implicating a large group of people is dangerous. If proof isn't forecoming that he's right or wrong out of the first lynch, then you'll have to lynch on. DiBs is verbally strong enough to make the group continue. Notice the if. As for going down: I really don't mind if it is for the greater good. I also acknowledged that getting 2 inno's doesn't mean the other 2 are inno. That's the real problem here: it could well be that you only hit scum on the last lynch.
All I have right now is a theory based on a huge 'what if' and unsupported by fact (I acknowledged that, too).

But I dislike people being grouped together like this: it points at a massive time-investment to either prove completely or falsify completely. That buys the killers a lot of time if he's wrong or misleading us, precisely because the scum could be the last guy you didn't lynch because the first two/three came up inno.

So your pretty much saying that we shouldn't lynch any of gem, morgoth simply because dibs has grouped you together?
You are not grouped together just because dibs says you are. You are grouped together because of your own actions. Dibs has only stated the obvious.
I say this because even i cant afford to trust dibs, and have come to the conclusion that it's very plausible that you guys are all in league without having to relly on dibs's observations.
I hesitate to include you in there for sure Tapper, as i understand you are talking on behalf of yourself. but i feel it prudent to point out that its most definitely isnt only dibs who has painted this picture, he has just been the one to point it out.

[drinksinbars]

Tapper, on Oct 20 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

I said that I could fairly well be the sole inno in a group with 3 scum. To be entirely honest, I haven't seen a whole lot that convinces me of Morgy's guilt, but haven't expressedly searched for it: partly because I know I'm not his symp/partner EDIT: so anything based on my association with him is automatically false). Even less have I read on DiBs' case on the Dude. Gem's symping pretty obviously, and I already said I'd be willing to lynch her. So yeah, DiBs most certainly could be right about the other 3 and I acknowledged that.

What I wanted to do is explore the possible set-up if he is scum. But, I think implicating a large group of people is dangerous. If proof isn't forecoming that he's right or wrong out of the first lynch, then you'll have to lynch on. DiBs is verbally strong enough to make the group continue. Notice the if. As for going down: I really don't mind if it is for the greater good. I also acknowledged that getting 2 inno's doesn't mean the other 2 are inno. That's the real problem here: it could well be that you only hit scum on the last lynch.
All I have right now is a theory based on a huge 'what if' and unsupported by fact (I acknowledged that, too).

But I dislike people being grouped together like this: it points at a massive time-investment to either prove completely or falsify completely. That buys the killers a lot of time if he's wrong or misleading us, precisely because the scum could be the last guy you didn't lynch because the first two/three came up inno.

But you see this is one of my points and it seems to be something i think a few players are just wrong about. One player doesnt lead the group, its just not a possibility. Despite what some people like to say in thread, its not a healthy spot to put yourself in and its very rarely the best way to play the game. For one thing the chances of being right about antyhing this early in the game are remote and if you are wrong you work against your team. You all seem to think i am certain but i am anything but, i changed my vote from morgoth yesterday for heavens sake! When i placed it on this morning i laid down the gauntlet when i placed it, i reiterated my arguments and added in about the way the train on alt developed and i specifically siad that i wanted to see who would try to make a seperate train. That i do think mrogoth is a killer is irrelevant to how others act. That was one single vote - yet notice again how lines are immeadiately drawn in the sand.

Its equally likley that lace is fake symping me, yet no one has mentioned how he has twice followed my vote on morgoth, yesterday with little explanation and again today with little or no elaboration. Why is that? I can only guess its because the reasoning wasnt there for the train, that he was a decided upon target for his vote and so an argument (weak but effective) regarding playing style was used.

I mean there (^) is evidence that lace could be scum, but the majority of the case building on him regards STYLE, and this is something i cant vote on as my play style is abrasive usually, though i am trying to be nicer now.

I am making cases on those i find guilty, what can be frustrating (but isnt in this case as this is a normal game and so less pressur ei feel) is when people wait for cases. I am not grouping you as a "This is the evil team lynch them all or we lose" scenario, its only day 2. What i am trying to do is point people at certain players i find suspicious by how they have voted on thread and what their motivation around those votes is. At the end of the day tapper its a team game, and i cant lycnh you by myself, i have to convince people of guilt, and the only way i can do that is by making a case. If people dont agree they dont vote, its actually a very simple mechanic but the most improtant one that is frequently ignored.

[Lisheo]

drinksinbars, on Oct 20 2008, 10:59 AM, said:

Vengeance, on Oct 17 2008, 09:05 PM, said:

Lacedaemonian, on Oct 17 2008, 03:01 PM, said:

Venge is defo marking himself - he will have to do a lot to prove otherwise for me. I made a handful of posts from about 4pm. Apparently I posted all day? I followed no voting patterns and had no intention to vote.

Yet you still voted. If Morgy had been lynched and you had left your vote on all day I would be looking at you. You did have several opportunities to remove your so called joke vote but you didn't.

you removed your vote on alt after the lynch, i dont get why this is suspicious, as i dont suspect you for it veng, why is it so strange? Its bloody pointless, but its not scummy in my eyes, instead of removing association it strengthens it.

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 12:59 PM, said:

J_Slr, on Oct 17 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

drinksinbars, on Oct 17 2008, 08:25 PM, said:

Yellow, on Oct 17 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

J_Slr, on Oct 17 2008, 07:11 PM, said:

Well If I die at least you guys will know where to look....

Lol, how many games ago was it that Ruse got lynched for saying this exact thing?

WIFOM, WIFOM, everywhere, and not a drop to drink!

i think that i led that charge and it was against bent

though in this case i think tis cause i said gem would kill him for callin her fat

of course we can ignore that cause i said it in such small wroiting and if he doesnt die, bam lynch tomorrow as scum. If alt is inno, he was the first to vote for him too!! Damnit angry yellow your good at this game

First off I stick my origional reason for the vote, he was too lynch happy, and secondly! I voted second...

Its just a shot in the dark but what if Alt was a symp and one of the killers voted off one of the people gunning for him as revenge, once they thought we wouldn't be able to work out who they were?

lisheo you mention symps more than any other player in the game. In fact i think out of your 100 odd posts you probably talk about symps in 80 of them and vote in the rest.

Tapper, on Oct 18 2008, 05:09 PM, said:

Oh, and it wasn't Yellow, so this was the quote I meant.

To put on the pressure:

vote Lacedaemonian

it was yellow - this is just untrue. Yellow said about voting for lace because he plays an unconventional game, can you provide a quote that proves it was jslr as you implied with your vote.

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 05:39 PM, said:

Alright, I agree with adding another vote, but I won't be responsible for another inno lynch, so if it looks like a train, Im removing it if we dont get some serious evidence. While I dont agree with it (the personal insults jar with me a bit), I like Lace's style of playing.

Vote Lace

Sorry mate!

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 18 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

vote Lace

For being annoying, and because he thinks he can't get lynched. You underestimate our viciousness, young padawan.


Edit: yes, he needs to answer our questions...

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

@Grief: Damn. In that case
remove vote

gtg again. Back soon enough.

Lisheo, on Oct 18 2008, 06:49 PM, said:

Right, Im back ealier than expected. yes, Lace, I'm trying hard to sit on the fence tonight. Gavin and someone else made comments about being neutral, and they struck a chord with me. I still consider you suspicious, so...
Vote Lace (again) But don't hold it against me.

EDIT: change from em something else to fence lmao damn drunkenness.

here we have lisheo then gem, then lisheo removing and then almost immeadiately voting again. None of his posts show any form of reasoning but an awful lot of "dont mind me while i lynch you" comments towards lace.

Hav e to see i am only a wee bit through the weeknd but lisheo is looking terribly sympish, for th esimple fact that its the only role he ever talks about. On a side note he also says things like alt was a symp and his masters responded to his death by killing jslr, well if he is a symp they dont know who he is, unless grief has changed their remit for the game and lisheo is actually the master. Now this could just be a noob error, but i think if lisheo is our symp he has got things slightly muddled. If he is symping someone, he has proclaimed himself pro morgoth, and follows tapper quite readily.

I understand accusing another player of soemthing is likley to annoy some of you, but read lisheos posts and just marvel at how often he talks about or speculates on the symp role and how the masters plans relate to it.

I am still keeping my vote where it is, as i think morgo is the master.

Another point is that the switch from morgo to alt was pushed by lisheo and tapper. posts like if so and so switch right now we will get a lynch, and agressive pushing toward that fact.

comments?

@ja - thats a very uncomplicated game your playing.

Firstly, I removed my vote because I expected to be gone for much longer than i actually was, and I didn't intend to vote someone off when i wasn't sure of them. However, like most people, I thought putting pressure on him might be a good idea, his playing style, while interesting, is detrimental to actually finding the killers, and I didnt agree with his personal comments.

Actually the vote for Alt was started by Gavin and J_slr, and pushed by Vengeance and Tapper and Gem, much more than me.

Secondly, you complain about me talking about symps and then label me one? Somewhat hypocritical, there, ain't it? I supported the pro-morgoth case because a lot of votes seemed, to me, to be based on the fact that he was sending messages to spoiler heaven, which isn't a crime. For all we know, he could be the vigilante role and using his messages as a means of clarifying everything for himself, and heavens knows the vig role could be useful later, as could any of the other innocent roles. We can't vote off any innocents straight off, on "feelings". Although I know I did that with Alt.

Lastly, talking about symps makes more sense because from what I understand about this game, the killers find it easier if they lay low and don't make themselves obvious, this way they don't get involved in any of these discussions. Symps are there to muddy the waters, make things confusing and make sure the killers don't get caught. You've grouped together a very large group, put them all under suspicion. Could that be sympish behaviour?

And lastly, me symping Tapper? You really think that??? I haven't symped him, I voted with him over lace for the reasons stated above.

[drinksinbars]

take lisheo for example - i have stated my reasoning for believing them to be a symp and it has very little to do with anyone else. Symps rarely symp their master, which is why i have told you, tapper, to be careful of the votes around you. Now the reason i am not trying to lynch lisheo is that if i am right or wrong there is no way to be sure unless he comes back killer which i do not believe him to be.

I also disagree with this talk from players about lynching people to determine sides. Just thinking about previous games it is quite common for the early play to revolve around one or two cases while the kilelrs sat back and laughed. Someone turning up inno proves only that THEY are not one of the killers. Thats it. That people think dying proves a case, makes me suspicious of that player.