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What's messing with your groove?

#29321 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 17 December 2022 - 08:40 PM

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.



Suppose it becomes illegal. Then (as the article suggested) in place of the current freely available training sets (in the form of web links with metadata) provided by nonprofits, and free open source AI like Stable Diffusion, effective image generating AI will be restricted to mega-corporations (or the ultra-wealthy): those who can afford (or already own) the rights to large data-sets. (And if they want to imitate the style of a particular artist not in the training set, all they have to do is hire artists to make a bunch of imitations---which corporations already sometimes do when they don't want to pay an established artist but they want something in their style.)
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#29322 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

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Posted 18 December 2022 - 01:24 AM

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.


So if I look at a bunch of art that is copyrighted, mimic the style, and make art that is original-yet-inspired-by the artists who I looked at, then I'm stealing?
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#29323 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 December 2022 - 02:57 AM

View PostWhisperzzzzzzz, on 18 December 2022 - 01:24 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.


So if I look at a bunch of art that is copyrighted, mimic the style, and make art that is original-yet-inspired-by the artists who I looked at, then I'm stealing?


If it looks like a piece of those artists' art, yes.
If it's your own, no.
If you didn't bother to learn how to art, told a computer to scrape the internet and copy a bunch of artists, then generated something that looks like those artists' work, and got paid for it, yes.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
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#29324 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 18 December 2022 - 01:42 PM

View PostWhisperzzzzzzz, on 18 December 2022 - 01:24 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.


So if I look at a bunch of art that is copyrighted, mimic the style, and make art that is original-yet-inspired-by the artists who I looked at, then I'm stealing?

The general social agreement is that if you, an artist, look at artworks by others and learn how to produce works of your own, then that's fine. You've paid the tickets to get into the museums, you've bought the prints or books, you've borrowed the library books etc.

But when you start ripping them off to train a bundle of software how to rip them off to the non-comprehending point of including things that look vaguely like the artists' signatures, that's stealing. It's functionally licensing their work without paying them and breaking the agreement that you are the person learning how to be an artist. You even say this with "look at art that is copyrighted" - that there's an agreement that this work is special and doing stuff with it should be starting with the artist paid.
I survived the Permian and all I got was this t-shirt.
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#29325 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 19 December 2022 - 05:30 PM

View Postamphibian, on 18 December 2022 - 01:42 PM, said:

View PostWhisperzzzzzzz, on 18 December 2022 - 01:24 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.


So if I look at a bunch of art that is copyrighted, mimic the style, and make art that is original-yet-inspired-by the artists who I looked at, then I'm stealing?

The general social agreement is that if you, an artist, look at artworks by others and learn how to produce works of your own, then that's fine. You've paid the tickets to get into the museums, you've bought the prints or books, you've borrowed the library books etc.

But when you start ripping them off to train a bundle of software how to rip them off to the non-comprehending point of including things that look vaguely like the artists' signatures, that's stealing. It's functionally licensing their work without paying them and breaking the agreement that you are the person learning how to be an artist. You even say this with "look at art that is copyrighted" - that there's an agreement that this work is special and doing stuff with it should be starting with the artist paid.



For decades now artists in training have been using the internet for freely available images---the same set of images that AI has access to.

Most commercial artists sign away the rights to their work (most don't even get royalties, and those that do generally don't get licensing fees). Paying rights holders would primarily be paying corporations. (And micro-payments for being part of a database of billions would be very... micro, for individuals. Shutterstock is planning on doing that in the near future though---and charging people to use their proprietary AI software.)

Disney owns Marvel; Warner Bros owns DC. Animation provides a large number of images. Some comic book artists and their offspring are trying to sue Disney to renegotiate the rights to older works, but based on previous court rulings---and the current US Supreme Court---they're very unlikely to succeed.

Granting rights holders like Disney and other mega-corporations exclusive control over AI image generation would present the same potential risks to demand for most commercial artists without democratizing image creation (except perhaps at a cost, and on the corporations' terms).

As for signatures:

'the AI has learned that a key characteristic of the category “painting” is a signature, so it makes one up.

[...] “The details pointed out don’t use any existing language and do not represent the particular artist’s signature.’”

What Are Those Signatures Doing in LensaAI Portraits?
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#29326 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 19 December 2022 - 05:46 PM

View PostAbyss, on 18 December 2022 - 02:57 AM, said:

View PostWhisperzzzzzzz, on 18 December 2022 - 01:24 AM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 17 December 2022 - 08:00 PM, said:

The learning by AI is stealing, especially with the monetization of what the product is at the end.

That's where we fundamentally disagree.


So if I look at a bunch of art that is copyrighted, mimic the style, and make art that is original-yet-inspired-by the artists who I looked at, then I'm stealing?


If it looks like a piece of those artists' art, yes.
If it's your own, no.
If you didn't bother to learn how to art, told a computer to scrape the internet and copy a bunch of artists, then generated something that looks like those artists' work, and got paid for it, yes.




By 'looks like a piece of those artists' art' do you mean 'looks very similar to a specific piece by that artist' or 'looks like a piece in that artist's style'?

If it looks very similar to a specific piece by the artist (or significant parts of it do), and there aren't any previous public domain artworks that also look very similar, then that would generally be a copyright violation.

In the vast majority of cases large diffusion models don't come close to 'copying' copyrightable portions of the training set---and in the vast majority of cases where it does occur, the source image is repeated a very large number of times in the training set and is relatively famous (examples: the Afghan girl photograph ('Afghan girl' is now banned from Midjourney prompts), or famous public domain paintings like Girl with a Pearl Earring, etc.).

Many people who did 'learn to art'---Steve Stone for example (who did the previous covers for The Path to Ascendancy)---are using AI to assist in making art. I posted several links to articles by visual artist and author Jamie Curcio explaining how AI speeds up and contributes to his artistic process.

For now at least, the people monetizing AI art typically have to do substantive editing that requires skill at drawing (for example, to correct fingers and eyes) and/or using photoshop. But sometimes people do get lucky---usually after a large number of iterations.

In the future if it becomes much easier then sure, people won't have to 'put in the work' of learning how to do art by hand. But the vast majority of people who *do* put in years of work don't manage to support themselves with their art---only the tiny minority that (in the case of commercial art) win the biological lottery for hand-eye coordination and are fortunate enough to make it in the industry. And most people who are able to devote most of their time to art already come from privileged backgrounds. If the laborious process of drawing by hand becomes no longer necessary (though it may have meditative or other personal benefits) and far more people are granted the ability to generate and edit high quality images without having to 'waste' years learning how to do it, that will be progress.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 19 December 2022 - 06:25 PM

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#29327 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 19 December 2022 - 06:31 PM

I think we're not going to have productive discussion of this due to your being a tankie for the non-existent AI singularity, so I'm going to drop it.
I survived the Permian and all I got was this t-shirt.
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#29328 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 19 December 2022 - 07:01 PM

I was wrong---AI Art Universe is not shutting down, and some of its members are making money:

'Lissy Marie

I use MJ to make photos and then use photoshop to make them in to portraits of people . They look better than stuff like from lensa and people are happy to pay for them

[...] Lissy do they pay even if the fingers are still wonky?

[...] no lol I always fix the fingers first'

'Andrea Sfiligoi

I work with several publishers as illustrator and writer/illustrator and I have my own self publishing business in the wargame and role-playing games area and I use Mj to create illustrations. I have published plenty of card games, rpg books, children's books, one NFT, one coloring book. I have been doing game design plus illustration full time since 2007 and my business is doing well, AI art and other AI tools are helping me.'

'Adam Kuczek

Of course, it's just another tool. I use it along Photoshop, Maya and bunch of others. Doing a major gig right now where MJ has been used extensively in the concept stage and client loves the outcome (obviously). Weeks of time saved.'

'Elisabeth Bailey

As a graphic designer I use it as a tool for my work in the advertising agency.'

'Alan McGinn

I'm using it to advertise my hand reconstruction surgery business.'

'Thom Parra
bara. but not type the prompt press the button kind but like 50 layers and photoshop editing kind so it looks good XD'

'Dawnia Darkstone
I sell stuff on my Etsy. Stickers, embroidery, t-shirts, etc.

[...]

Also NFTs, I typically glitch them/collage them up first though

Posted Image


For this one I made an animation with AI, datamoshed it into a loop, then corrupted it with a custom image codec I made'

AI Art Universe | So are people monetising their AI works
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#29329 User is offline   Lady Bliss 

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Posted 20 December 2022 - 09:39 PM

Back in the hospital because they are doing a bunch of tests to identify why I’ve only been able to swallow liquids for 3 weeks. My current guess is esophagitis.
"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?" - Shylock
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#29330 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 12:01 AM

View PostMezla PigDog, on 01 December 2022 - 10:29 PM, said:

I changed the settings on my phone so that I don't get any message notifications from any apps. I have this creeping anxiety the whole time knowing I always have things to read and people waiting for me to reply to stuff. I am convinced a lot of the stress feeling is related to having a smart phone - we don't need to be as connected as we are. I stopped notifications a while back but then missed my sister having a cancer scare for 3 days so I turned them back on. I stopped them again and now missed a friend having a health emergency for a flipping month.

Where is the balance, people?! Before smart phones did we just not know as many people? Or did we not recieve as much information all the time?


I saw my friend who had the health emergency. I used to see her at least oncea week for a few years because our little boys were the same age and we were on similar work schedules. Then life got in the way. We had the best time. I love her to bits. She suggested next time I am having a phone anxiety nervous breakdown maybe I tell the people I am close to that they should call with important news 🤣 She makes a good point!

Mental health is such a fucker. When you are most in need, you are thinking the least straight.
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#29331 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 05:32 AM

View PostLady Bliss, on 20 December 2022 - 09:39 PM, said:

Back in the hospital because they are doing a bunch of tests to identify why I’ve only been able to swallow liquids for 3 weeks. My current guess is esophagitis.

Oh heck. I hope you get an answer. A friend of mine went through years of this and found out she had a rare condition where something grew the wrong way around, which prevented her from eating much of anything. Years of freaking with this finally led to surgery to fix the issue.

Edit: I spoke to her, she had Median Arcuate Ligament Syndrome (MALS). https://www.mayoclin...es/syc-20505001

She had the surgery and immediate relief.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 21 December 2022 - 03:32 PM

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#29332 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 01:32 PM

Well, today was my last day of work as I was laid off due to a downwards trend in production.

That's messing with my groove, just a little bit.
Screw you all, and have a nice day!

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#29333 User is offline   Lady Bliss 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 01:50 PM

View PostPrimateus, on 21 December 2022 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well, today was my last day of work as I was laid off due to a downwards trend in production.

That's messing with my groove, just a little bit.

So sorry to hear that. I hope you get unemployment.
"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?" - Shylock
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#29334 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 03:33 PM

View PostPrimateus, on 21 December 2022 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well, today was my last day of work as I was laid off due to a downwards trend in production.

That's messing with my groove, just a little bit.

Dang, I hope unemployment is quick and you get going as fast as you want to.
I survived the Permian and all I got was this t-shirt.
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#29335 User is offline   Lady Bliss 

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Posted 21 December 2022 - 05:41 PM

Ok I have a hiatal hernia and am getting an endoscopy tomorrow to see what can be done with my esophagus.
"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge?" - Shylock
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#29336 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 08:50 AM

So I don't know if I posted this before but the last four weeks or so have been hellish.


Wife was working for a care company who housed someone unsuitable in their service, he kept attacking staff (assaults, hitting, headlocks etc) and she got targeted a few times. Ended with her workplace basically saying 'not our fault if you hurt yourself at work'.

Add that onto financial pressures and unimaginable stress levels due to the hours she was putting in for the care company and she ended up going into stress induced psychosis. She was taken to a psychiatric hospital in Wakefield on Friday 9th. She's doing better now but I am facing a Christmas without her, her birthday is in two days and she'll be in hospital for that. I've also had to make being a single income household work for now, which has been... enlightening. It sounds like she had a medication conflict which was causing problems too, so I'm hopeful things are on the up, but we will have to see how we go.
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#29337 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 09:23 AM

Man this is an extremely rough page. I don't have the right words for any of it, I just wish the best outcome for all of you.
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#29338 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 10:14 AM

View Postworry, on 22 December 2022 - 09:23 AM, said:

Man this is an extremely rough page. I don't have the right words for any of it, I just wish the best outcome for all of you.

Agreed. Wishing peace and hope to you all and of anyone needs to vent feel free to PM me.
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#29339 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 10:46 AM

Wishing everybody the best, I hope things look brighter soon for all of you.
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#29340 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 01:45 PM

View Postworry, on 22 December 2022 - 09:23 AM, said:

Man this is an extremely rough page. I don't have the right words for any of it, I just wish the best outcome for all of you.


Agreed. What an utterly shit year, after a couple of other utterly shit years.
Especially when it looked like a few things were getting better. Not much, but enough to give a little bit of hope.
Then BAM there goes the rug. :(

Best to everyone.
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