[Flawed]

I like Temper best in this book and hope we will see more of him in the next lot of books. I guess that will only happen if we see an Azath war of some kind instigated by ST etc. He'd have to stand his ground then.

Lets hope Obo doesn't get to upset about it. He seems well mental and extremely powerful too.

If he came near me though id flex a Suplex on him.

" BLOW THAT UP! "

[raest]

Do Surly and Tayschrenn know that Kellanved and Dancer survived and made it to the Deadhouse?

When Kiska tells Tayschrenn she saw Kellanved and Dancer enter the Deadhouse, he says something like (I'm going from memory here): "No, you can't have seen them, because Surly and I agreed that they are dead." The way I read it, I got the impression that Surly and Tayschrenn knew, or at least had a suspicion that Kellanved and Dancer somehow survived. Particularly the use of "agreed" got me thinking that Surly and Tayschrenn decided that the official story would be that Kellanved and Dancer are dead.

And in a related note, in the BotF series are we ever told that the Malazans (including Laseen) know that Kellanved and Dancer have ascended and now are Shadowthrone and Cotillion? I've just always assumed that at least all the important people know, eg Quick Ben.

Here's a crazy theory: assuming Surly, Tayschrenn and possibly others of the Old Guard know they've ascended, maybe Kellanved and Dancer cooked up some super sneaky long term scheme and the Old Guard are in on it? I have not basis for this theory other than the knowledge that Shadowthrone and others are all sneaky b**tards and with SE you never know.

[ch'arlz]

raest;207579 said:

Do Surly and Tayschrenn know that Kellanved and Dancer survived and made it to the Deadhouse?

I think the question is really *when* did Surly and Tay know of their ascent. At the time if the Kiska quote as I recall, Surly and Tay believed that Kellanved and Dancer had died. Whether we're clued in to a change in that belief in NoK I don't remember, but certainly it's established for all 'important' people by GotM.

raest;207579 said:

Here's a crazy theory: assuming Surly, Tayschrenn and possibly others of the Old Guard know they've ascended, maybe Kellanved and Dancer cooked up some super sneaky long term scheme and the Old Guard are in on it? I have not basis for this theory other than the knowledge that Shadowthrone and others are all sneaky b**tards and with SE you never know.

Not crazy at all -- there's a lot of evidence scattered throughout the series to support it actually. Of course, there may have been a common scheme devised by Kellanved in the beginning but its fruition will depend on the mental stability and ambitions of the participants, primarily Kellanved.

-ch'arlz

[Abyss]

Actually, Surly and co, pre-end of NoK, seem to think Kel and Dancer are simply not coming back from wherever they went - maybe dead, maybe just missing, who knows...

But it seems the Shadow Moon was the designated time for the return if it was going to happen.


It's suggested in MoI that there are a lot of plans within plans related to Kel/Dancer's ascnesion, Surly taking the throne, WHiskeyjack's demotion, the secret recipe to Colonel Sanders crispy chicken, etc etc.

- Abyss, knows at least 2 of the seven herbs and spices...

[Skywalker]

My reaction to NoK... this seemed as good a place as any to post it.

The Good Stuff

• Temper, Kiska are both great characters.
  
• Loved getting to read about the Night of the Shadow Moon, and Dassem's fall at Y'Ghatan (both events have been referred to so often in the main sequence).
  
• Loved the glimpses of the Stormriders; the 'Why are you killing us?" at the end was spooky good.
  
• Loved the ties to TB - I am sure that book will now be more comprehensible when I reread it.
  
• I liked the way Tayschrenn (finally) got fleshed out in this book. His strategy of 'stand aside, survive' is making sense.
  
• The cameos by Surly/ Laseen, Topper, Aragan, etc. were nice as were the references to the enforcement of edict against magery

The Not-Bad stuff

• Reading ICE is like reading a Reader's Digest Condensed Book version of SE. Nice, but in some things so radically different from the more 'wax-eloquent-philosophy' we are used to
  
• I thought the book should've been longer, possibly with an epilogue to tie it directly to GoTM or TB (the way the Clone Wars cartoons segued into Star Wars Episode 3)

The Complaints

• Too much stuff happens offstage - Edgewalker dealing with the Glacier in Emurlahn, Surly/ Kellanved's confrontation, Tayschrenn/ Agayla/ Obo stopping the Stormriders... In that sense the book clears up some mysteries while posing questions that may never be answered
  
• Did anyone else get the feeling that the 'old-lying-low-mysterious-uber-powerful' archetype was over used? Agayla, Obo (who reminds me of Tom Bombadil for obvious reasons), the Fisherman, the Azath boundary protectors... I mean come on! I buy that Malaz was a hotbed of power, but this is crazy.

[Imperial Historian]

i think kiska will remain a mystery for now...

And i sort of got the same impression as you for the duel between skinner and dassem... but there's nothing really to back it up... anyway interesting food for thought on the whole best swordsman issue.

And i want to know when ICE's novel already written novel is coming out...

[fan_83]

Jhenna is no longer a guardian.. remmeber where she was taken below teh ground with roots....

thats the end of her

about the guy in the fishing boat.. hes dead.. remember agaryle and obo commenting about it , as to how he went out htere alone and his wife turned to ice.... I think taht said enough to confirm that hes dead..

I say that rake is more powerful than tay because, tay said that only osserc taht he know off could have hold back teh majority of the storm power and obo adn aragyle are just holding off the leftovers.. when tay lent his strength to hold it off, it took all of his powers to hold off the remainder, when osserc is thought by tay to be holding off the majority the hwole time.. adn as we know that rake is equal in power to osserc.. therefore rake much more powerful than tay

and I would think temper has either become a guardian or a nameless one,.. hes taken on teh role of those 2 guys who died stopping jhenna...

[Imperial Historian]

Well i placed it as almost a year after the prologue of GotM, seeing as the slaughter in the mouse quarter seems to have been about a year ago, and the year is definitly the same... so my thought is gotm must have taken place in early spring, while NoK takes place in the winter of teh same year... but i've not got any quotes to support, i'll try and bear it in mind on my ext re-read.

Some inconcistencies being in GotM the commander of mocks hold is a fist not a sub fist as in NoK, to me it suggests that the events in the mouse quarter take place in the early stages of the korelian invasion, dassem has just died recently in the GotM prologue, so again that places events about a year before NoK, after the riots the old fist is relieved of command, sub fist takes over and mock's island becomes a backwater again.

[Morgoth]

Also, Kiska is a potential Mage while Lorn represented the polar oposite of magic.

[Folken]

I seem to recall SE saying he really enjoyed one of the characters created by Esslemont, and that he/she plays a part in BH. Don't remember if he gave us an actual name, but any idea who that might be?

[Imperial Historian]

quote:

I rather think that as one of Dassem Ultor's bodyguard and a member of The Sword he had more than moderate ability ....and although he would never have defeated the hound he managed to hold it off a while longer than most others would have.

Fair point, i meant moderate ability in the group of really good fighters like dassem, the avowed, segueh and co, in normal company he'd be damned good.

quote:

Not sure why Osserc is in this discussion as he doesn't feature in the book?.

Ceda bought it up, tays mentions that only osserc could have held back teh storm or something...

quote:

Of course he wasn't Kellanved... where did that come from?

no idea, ceda bought it up

quote:

I still think it's the same guy. People who are fevered do have dark rings round their eyes....

Hmmm possibly... we shall see, personally i hope they are the same person

[Imperial Historian]

To be honest i have no idea...

Possibly Temper, who is linked to y'ghatan.

kiska, another possiblility if we meet up with tays.

Then there's the seti tribesman ferrule who was also in the sword, as he may be in the area.

Can't think of any other obvious figures...

[kcf]

I've been thinking on Kiska and who she may be in later books, and I keep coming back to Adjunct Loren. It's been a while since I've read GotM, but I think this fits well.

One thing that caught my eye in particular is that Adjunct Loren has talent but had never trained to use it.

[Yellow]

Kaiser Soze