[MecnunK]

luke;376059 said:

i am surprised at how many people speaking about the improvement of SE writing style....how many here read fantasy for writing style? this supposed improvement in is going to be bad for the MBOTF series.
...what sets SE apart from other fantasy writers is not his writing style but his unique imagination-which verge on scary tbh- . instead of having more malazan marching or assassins plotting or confrontations of the great and unique characters he created ..etc...now we have 2 pages of an ox or a 5 years old child contemplating some complicated philisophical i deas at the start of each chapter.

SE's work is not literature and this takes nothing away from him cause he never meant them to be literature...and i hope he keeps it that way

I agree with your original post for what it is worth... He changed his writting style in this particular book.. and took abstract commentary to a new limit. It does appear to be alot of filler....Jordan described trees, branches leaves and skirts to fill pages up , GRMM just started up multiple worthless errands for his characters as well as inventing new uninteresting characters... however SE does it better and does some social commentary and phlisophising which actually adds amazing depth to some of the characters when it is their thoughts we are reading..(I actually came to liek Rake for the first timne in the series and he died boring it maybe..

Yes most of the book was boring but hey I thought to myself he has given us at least 6 beautiful pieces of fantasy so he has fully earned the right for self indulgence and to experiment with his style a bit...Perhaps he really enjoyed writing with this new style and wanted to explore it in a meaningful way if he got the chance, since it was book eight he had to get it out of way at some point.... You get hints of him wanting to go this way in previous books (Duiker/heboric/Scillara POvs)... Imagine book 1 being in this style then how many people would have read book 2.. I can certainly say I would not have.. ..

Having said all this next book better not be the same style

[Sinisdar Toste]

i cant see that happening. not with tehol and the bonehunters on the scene

[Trull's son]

I think I should reread TtH before i make any comment. i would like to say, though, that compared to jordan, compared to GRRM, SE is godly. i have never read stephen donaldson, although i hear good things, but as it stands MBotF is definitely #1. it blows the others out of the water due mainly to the style in which they are written. a nice break from the structured writing of the less...?diverse? fantasy authors in my honest opinion.

[Lisheo]

Having reread TTH four times(pretty much killing my social life lmao), I can honestly say that this book is an evolution from the others. The thing that attracts me to SE's writing is that he doesn't deal with such broad labels as Good and Evil, or even Evil and More Evil (which I find becoming more popular these days). Everyone is simply themselves. Mostly too deep to hedge into a single grouping. Each book has been more and more about dealing with the personal, if you notice. Remember RG and MT? That was Rhulad's story. A personal story. Not (to quote family guy) emperor palpatine coming up with the formula to good evil monologues "something something something dark side, something something something closer" lmao. SE breaths life into his characters. And here's something beautiful: if you want the older, more military stuff, read ICE'e RotCG. The two authors really have worked out a perfect arrangement.
Just because TTH is written as if Kruppe is telling us a story, that doesn't make it worse than other books in the series, in fact, it stops us feeling so omnipresent and all-knowing.
Finally, SE's books are literature. He is trying to get across some meaningful discussion. He aint Eddings.

[Abyss]

And amen at that. I suspect SE knew from the start the Kruppe narration would throw a few people off, but even so, i have to give him credit for trying something different, especially since he could have just held the line at the same things he did in earlier books.

I'm curious now whether he changed again for DoD.

- Abyss, because all we are is dust in the dreams, dude...

[Fisher Kel Tath]

I have to say that TTH is my favorite book to date, for a variety of reasons. Reiterating what Zorland said, the inclusion of Harrlo's story and the ox's thoughts were some of the most enjoyable parts of the book. Especially when the ox finds Barathol and Chaur. As to Kruppe narrating the story, well I thoroughly enjoy Kruppe's character, so the fact he is narrating is icing on the SE cake for me. Something about his practiced foolery just speaks to me, plus the method he managed to block Caladan Brood and his boom stick(Was that ever explained?)

The pace begins sedate, a stately stroll through a variety of characters thoughts. As the narrative progresses it picks up speed, until we arrive at the final crescendo breathless and bewildered, having to reread the last 150 pages just to make sure we got it right.

Of course, all of this is merely IMO.

[Ammanas]

Fisher Kel Tath, on Sep 27 2008, 08:16 AM, said:

I have to say that TTH is my favorite book to date, for a variety of reasons. Reiterating what Zorland said, the inclusion of Harrlo's story and the ox's thoughts were some of the most enjoyable parts of the book. Especially when the ox finds Barathol and Chaur. As to Kruppe narrating the story, well I thoroughly enjoy Kruppe's character, so the fact he is narrating is icing on the SE cake for me. Something about his practiced foolery just speaks to me, plus the method he managed to block Caladan Brood and his boom stick(Was that ever explained?)

The pace begins sedate, a stately stroll through a variety of characters thoughts. As the narrative progresses it picks up speed, until we arrive at the final crescendo breathless and bewildered, having to reread the last 150 pages just to make sure we got it right.

Of course, all of this is merely IMO.

Blocking Caladan happened in MOI.

[Fisher Kel Tath]

I am aware of that, I was merely referring to the event that endeared the fat man in the red waist coat in the first place.

[Silencer]

Lisheo, on Sep 26 2008, 02:21 AM, said:

Having reread TTH four times(pretty much killing my social life lmao), I can honestly say that this book is an evolution from the others. The thing that attracts me to SE's writing is that he doesn't deal with such broad labels as Good and Evil, or even Evil and More Evil (which I find becoming more popular these days). Everyone is simply themselves. Mostly too deep to hedge into a single grouping. Each book has been more and more about dealing with the personal, if you notice. Remember RG and MT? That was Rhulad's story. A personal story. Not (to quote family guy) emperor palpatine coming up with the formula to good evil monologues "something something something dark side, something something something closer" lmao. SE breaths life into his characters. And here's something beautiful: if you want the older, more military stuff, read ICE'e RotCG. The two authors really have worked out a perfect arrangement.
Just because TTH is written as if Kruppe is telling us a story, that doesn't make it worse than other books in the series, in fact, it stops us feeling so omnipresent and all-knowing.
Finally, SE's books are literature. He is trying to get across some meaningful discussion. He aint Eddings.

I have to agree with everything you say here, Lisheo. The two certainly do operate well together, and I do sometimes wonder about the epicness of their original gaming etc.

Abyss, on Sep 26 2008, 04:16 AM, said:

And amen at that. I suspect SE knew from the start the Kruppe narration would throw a few people off, but even so, i have to give him credit for trying something different, especially since he could have just held the line at the same things he did in earlier books.

I'm curious now whether he changed again for DoD.

- Abyss, because all we are is dust in the dreams, dude...

Yes, DoD should be interesting - I almost get the feeling that it will be moving back towards a grander scale. You know, everything coming together/being tied in...but at the same time it could go the same was as TtH, and have more personal/close in stuff...in order to also set up the scene. Gah. I can't wait!

Fisher Kel Tath, on Sep 28 2008, 02:16 AM, said:

I have to say that TTH is my favorite book to date, for a variety of reasons. Reiterating what Zorland said, the inclusion of Harrlo's story and the ox's thoughts were some of the most enjoyable parts of the book. Especially when the ox finds Barathol and Chaur. As to Kruppe narrating the story, well I thoroughly enjoy Kruppe's character, so the fact he is narrating is icing on the SE cake for me. Something about his practiced foolery just speaks to me, plus the method he managed to block Caladan Brood and his boom stick(Was that ever explained?)

The pace begins sedate, a stately stroll through a variety of characters thoughts. As the narrative progresses it picks up speed, until we arrive at the final crescendo breathless and bewildered, having to reread the last 150 pages just to make sure we got it right.

Of course, all of this is merely IMO.

Well, I agree with your opinion.

[Grief]

As for Kruppe standing down brood, the main theory, offered by a character, is that K'rul intervened.

[Wampyry]

I agree with Luke, the first 700 pages of TTH were boring whereas the last 125 pages were great.
TTH reminded me of Jordan's later books. 75 % of page filler and 25 % fantasy. It took me well over a month to read TTH because I kept it putting down after about 20 minutes of reading until I got to about page 700.

I think a re-read will be more rewarding since I now have an idea where Erikson's was going, but
a re-read is not in my immediate future.

This post has been edited by Wampyry: 05 December 2008 - 04:34 AM

[Sucka27]

Quote

...what sets SE apart from other fantasy writers is not his writing style but his unique imagination-which verge on scary tbh- . instead of having more malazan marching or assassins plotting or confrontations of the great and unique characters he created ..etc...now we have 2 pages of an ox or a 5 years old child contemplating some complicated philisophical i deas at the start of each chapter.

SE's work is not literature and this takes nothing away from him cause he never meant them to be literature...and i hope he keeps it that way

I think you win the thread. If all of the subplots had come together nicely and had a greater meaning I think most of the fans here (me included) would have praised SE for his unique skill at bringing several parts into a whole. Instead in TTH we got several parts that remain parts that fizzle to an insignificant close. But the die hard fans are praising that - my honest diagnosis is this is denial but I also feel the need to support that denial. I don't want to see the series end on a low note either.

I just believe SE should stick to what made the series awesome in the first place, let's not reinvent the wheel here. If the concluding books dwell on Redeemer-esque melodramas that don't allow the reader any sort of emotional attachment unless it is upon reread, where we already know the context of the material we are reading, I'll be very disappointed.

Hey, I enjoy being dropped or immersed into a foreign world without everything explained to me, but this formula has its limits and sadly, when those limits are over-extended the result is, well, the weakest entry in the series. It almost seems like SE has started to write with the mindset that the legacy of this series centers far into the future when everyone already knows what happens, like in the Lord of the Rings. That's a huge gamble, and if he is making that gamble, I really hope he succeeds. But my bet is that if complete enjoyment means you already have to know what happens, and the context of every conversation, it will hurt the standing of the series down the road. TTH was a gamble, I think SE will adjust back to his bread and butter moving forward.

This post has been edited by Sucka27: 05 December 2008 - 07:31 AM

[baltimorebull]

I have to agree that THT did drag a bit. Actually i think the last two books have become slow and a bit turgid. I found myself skimming past sections of the book that seemed like, well filler. Whole plot lines at times seemed like intellectual doodles that SE did not have the heart to drop.

That said what separatesgood fiction from merely escapist fiction is character. Plot is candy and it is what gets one going but it is characterization that separates the beach read from the book that you came back to again and again, and Erickson does a pretty good job with characterization.

For me though in these last books he seems to do a great deal of "freewriting" until he seems to hit on a way to keep driving the plot. It is a testimony to his skill that these digressions and "plotlets" are captivating, but i think they are usually distracting as well. My criticism is that SE does not seem to have a clear idea of where his story is going, until he starts to write. . .

Many of the posters here have said that "Gardens" is their favorite and his best work. As I look at the now considerable pile of books inteh series, (some two feet of story) it is not a surprise that Gardens is the shortest.

One other annoying and niggling point about TTH is the absence of a glossary, dramatic persoane list, or meaningful maps. At least they were not present in the paperback edition i was reading.

[foolio]

I liked Kruppes narration and the Ox's POV, but just didnt get the convergence, the child god, the dying god, or the redeemer. I liked this book the least of the series...

[D'rek]

Look at some major plot lines of the first 7 books:
-GotM starts with the fighting at Pale, and WJ's squad's subterfuge in Darujhistan carries on throughout the whole novel.
-DhG: The Chain of Dogs
-MoI: The Pannion War
-HoC: the 14th Army
-MT: The Edur Invasion of Lether
-tBH: the 14th Army
-RG: The Lether Invasion by the 14th

TtH has no armies, no conquests, no militaries. There are a couple of retired Bridgeburners, but they spens more time moping about how they are retired then they do fighting and that's the closest thing TtH has to military stuff.

Now you need to ask yourself, is that good or is it bad?

A lot of people who didn't like RG might find that it is so because it wasn't different enough from previous books, and thus TtH should be a blessing for them because it is completely different.
But then other people who have liked every book so far a ton might not like TtH because it is so different.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 05 December 2008 - 05:52 PM

[Onos]

HoosierDaddy, on Aug 25 2008, 11:05 PM, said:

All this talking makes me want to tug my braid, chastize a male for no reason, get all emo with myself, and marry the most annoying character ever.

LOL LOL Ah, good times. A friend of mine and i have even coined the term Egwene/Nynaeve parts of the story. "Deadhouse Gates has the best storyline, except for the stupid Egwene parts..." (aka Felisen parts)
"I will do a a reread of House of Chains but skip the Egwene parts".

[Onos]

I usually read the books quickly as soon as they come out, then do another reread with greater care where i tell myself it isnt a race to see how fast i can get to the end. So on my first read i probably DO miss things. So with the caveat that i have only read TTH hounds once, i did feel it was the weakest of the books. Probably weakest isnt correct, but the one i was least enthused about. (dont get me wrong MBOF is by FAR the best fantasy i have read and the world created is great, and one of the books has to be my least favorite)

A first read usually takes me around 10 days. TTHs was over three weeks, maybe four. I wasnt driven to arrive at the end. Where ROTCG took me less than 10 days. And now i have found myself putting off my reread of TTH which normally i am super excited about to get on with. Where as an example ROTCG is starring at me from my living room table just pleading with me to be read a 2nd time. Or MOI, i could probably do a continous loop of reading that book.

My next first read conclusion is the different plots didnt seem to gel for me enough. It seemed like 600 pages of bouncing around when i kinda just wanted to stick with something. I really didnt care about Harlo, or his step brother or his loser parents. The whole time with them i was 'when are we going to get to the fireworks factory!' To me TTH was closer to on the Simpsons when they add Poochie to the show to spice things up and it backfires. Ok, not that bad, but i just really wanted to work that reference in here. Kallor was very interesting, but he felt more like a cameo. "Look everybody, who decided to drop by for a visit! Kallor! Ok, now back to our regular show..."

Many of the characters did grow on me, (like the loser Andii) but i suppose i have to rest on faith that what we have read will have more future build up. Though what concerns me is that the last two books are on a different contingent. I think i feel like TTH was book 1 of the Tyrant trilogy, not book 8 or MBOTF. As i look back i can think of many small pieces i really liked, so it puzzles me that the whole wasnt really a 'wow'.

There were some positives for me. The history tidbits in TTH were very interesting. That i am looking forward to sifting through. Lots of new info i was excited to hear. Another highlight was the guy who had the moving empire on wheels. That one was an interesting thought that had my mind going for a while. Perhaps i was dreading the whole Rake ending. I really didnt want Rake to go, but i suppose that is also good thing that characters can die. No one is safe. The Seerdomin/Durok interactions were good, but just when you start to care about Seer he is no more. Earlier on i was seeing interesting possible adventures with Seer and Durok as a team. And the game they played sounded interesting!

Oh well, i will start the reread and see how i feel about things this time around. I wasnt crazy about RG at first but i softened up on the reread when i realized i needed to come to terms with a few events as opposed to not liking the book itself.

[Tehol Beddict]

I loved TTH, but I did find the whole Redeemer thing... boring. I hated it. Sure, I loved Itkovian when he was alive, but I hated him when he was a godling, mostly because I knew he didn't want to be. I also hated the whole 'OMG! KILL THE REDEEMER!' plan of the Dying God. But Seerdomin gave it life, and I loved that.

[Epiph]

Onos, on Dec 5 2008, 03:57 PM, said:

A friend of mine and i have even coined the term Egwene/Nynaeve parts of the story. "Deadhouse Gates has the best storyline, except for the stupid Egwene parts..." (aka Felisen parts)
"I will do a a reread of House of Chains but skip the Egwene parts".

I can see why you would equate Felisin with Jordan's female characters, but I have to respectfully disagree. Jordan's females are all so similar that they can only be identified by the color of their dress. While I think Erikson's female characters are a little weak, there is so much more to Felisin and her storyline than the Mary-Sue-ness of a Jordan female. In fact, what makes Erikson's females so much better is how he takes the expectation of a Mary Sue and turns it on its head. Felisin is a young, pretty noble, and by fantasy convention, one would expect her to pluckily rise above her slavery and save the day, or whatever. Instead, she uses the only thing she has available to barter with--her body--and the resulting emotional scars cause her to walk down a the path of addiction. She ultimately overcomes and becomes one of the most powerful people in 7 Cities, with her all-consuming goal of vengence in her grasp, only to die. Pretty spectacular use of fantasy cliche expectation, if you ask me, and incredibly tragic.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

You're right. A Greek tragedy could be made out of Felisin's storyline.